The demise of the small/medium sized Irish town

JupiterKid

Following on from (yet another) thread on Tipperary town and its multitude of problems, I see a lot of problems with medium sized Irish towns in general with the midlands counties seemingly being the worst affected (but by no means limited to just the midlands).

Unless they are particularly picturesque and host a significant tourist attraction or are coastal or are within the commuter belts of Dublin and Cork and are feeding off the economic power of these cities, many seem to be in serious trouble.

Why?

I think there are a multitude of factors at play here...

1. Atrocious planning. Allowing a free for all of rural one off housing in the environs of these towns over the past 50 years meant that very little or no middle class housing estates were built in these towns and this meant that the only estates to be developed in these towns were local authority ones. This led to the towns getting a “rough” reputation, discouraging private housing development in the towns and leading to more people wanting to live in rural one off housing outside these towns. This led a vicious spiral of decline.

2. Loss of key major employers/ industry. The loss of the sugar beet factories in the 1980s/90s effectively decimated towns like Tuam and Thurles as a huge proportion of these towns’ wealth was dependent on these industries, workers would support local shops and businesses etc (the “multiplier” effect). Also the failed IDA policy in the 1960s to 1980s of trying to lure branch plant assembly factories down to rural towns backfired badly as they simply upped sticks and abandoned the towns they were in after their tax breaks ran out. Again decimating their host towns economically.

Major industry these days wants to be located in major urban areas close to airports, motorways and skilled and diverse young labour force, not in a midlands town with poor roads (and back the 1970s and early 80s for those too young to remember) a 3rd world telephone system.

3. Poor redevelopment/tax incentive strategies. When Ireland’s economic fortunes started to change for the better in the 1990s onwards, it might have seemed that many of these towns in decline might have had a shot at recovery. But at this stage, the horse had bolted by then - emigration in the bleak 80s robbed them of their skilled youth, industry had moved on and would no longer locate in these towns and badly designed shopping centers and ugly “retail parks” were allowed spring up, often outside the town centre itself, cannibalising the retail trade in these towns. In any case, many of these retail ventures failed and lie half vacant. Also poorly built and very poorly maintained apartment buildings thrown up at the edge of these town centers which in less than 15 years have aged very badly. Indeed many ended up in NAMA and are half-built empty shells as there was no real demand for such accommodation in the first place.

Poor internet/broadband connectivity to some of these towns hasn’t helped either. The decline of the rural pub is also very noticeable in these towns. Rural towns that had 8 or 9 pubs 15 years ago perhaps have 3 or 4 now.

Closure of local services such as Garda stations and post offices has badly affected the small towns. Increased car mobility for those who can travel mean more and more are shopping in bigger urban centers, furthering the decline of local businesses.

Thoughts on my theories? Are these towns in an irreversible decline to the accelerating trend of urbanisation? I know many UK towns face similar problems but from my travels in Continental Europe the medium and small town seems to still be doing well. Can local industries and enterprises be revived or invested in? Can some of these towns see a renaissance?

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich

One off housing has ripped the life out of the towns. It's now just one off housing and driving to wherever Lidl/tesco etc are. They made their own mess by building these monstrosities instead of living in communities, we are after all social animals.

whisky_galore

Farmer's children want to live in new houses on sites they get cheaply (or free) from their parents. Why wouldn't they?

Years ago the extended family would live in the one house, that doesn't happen anymore as having two 'ladies of the house' would be a recipe for trouble.

Jimbob1977

Motorway bypasses have killed some towns like Mountrath and Borris-in-Ossory. Only towns with interesting heritage sites and tourism will prosper.

The Ireland 2040 National Planning Framework document expects another 1 million people to be living in Ireland in 2040, with half of them outside Greater Dublin in existing urban centres.

However, if the jobs continue to centre on Dublin, it's Leinster that will get clogged up.

Communities need jobs to thrive. If there's no jobs, Joe Public will still be getting the 6.25am train from Enniscorthy to Connolly.

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich

whisky_galore wrote: »

Farmer's children want to live on sites they get cheaply (or free) from their parents. Why wouldn't they?

Years ago the extended family would live in the one house, that doesn't happen anymore as having two 'ladies of the house' would be a recipe for trouble.

Because it's bad for the environment, health, so many reasons.

Stonedpilot

Rates often kill these towns. Often the main streets are boarded up or just carbon copy franchises as the rates are so absurdly high for small businesses they dont bother and the only one can afford them are major soulless vacous conglomorates like mobile phone networks, British pound shops and fast food franchises. Sound faimiliar?.


Every street every biggish/medium town in Ireland has little to no independent retailers.

LLMMLL

This is purely observation based on people I know but I think younger people are less likely to want to stay in a small town their entire lives, perhaps tied into the growth of portraying a social media lifestyle. Practically every young person I know now wants to be Ina. Big city with plenty of consumer options.

JupiterKid

No problem whatsoever with farmers and those working the land wanting to built rural one off housing. That’s allowed in most developed countries. But let’s not kid ourselves here - the vast vast majority of one-off rural housing is resided in by those with no connection to the land and who commute often long distances to work in large towns and cities.

Farmers often sold these sites as a way to generate income. This sort of urban generated one off rural housing is pretty much completely banned in Great Britain and most Continental European countries, Greece and the poorer regions of one or two other Mediterranean countries excepted.

There is no doubt in my mind that this has led to the demise of the small and medium sized Irish rural town.

whisky_galore

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

Because it's bad for the environment, health, so many reasons.

If you were offered a free site, why would you next to or into a town or village and pay through the nose for the privilege?

Not everyone wants to live in a town or village either, esp if it's a bit of a dump.

As with most things, 'the environment' is fine as long as we don't have to pay for it.

wexie

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

Because it's bad for the environment, health, so many reasons.

I could see an argument for the environment alright....but why health?

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich

wexie wrote: »

I could see an argument for the environment alright....but why health?

Reliance on cars. Also, isolation. It's not good to never see people.

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich

whisky_galore wrote: »

If you were offered a free site, why would you next to or into a town or village and pay through the nose for the privilege?

Not everyone wants to live in a town or village either, esp if it's a bit of a dump.

As with most things, 'the environment' is fine as long as we don't have to pay for it.

Personally I'd hate to live in isolation, but everyone is different. I'm not condoning their choices, but one off housing is a major factor when it comes to the death of Irish towns and villages.

kneemos

The internet has killed all of those small independent shops that used to survive and do well in small towns.
They just can't compete price wise with online and improved motorway access to larger towns and chain stores.

zetalambda

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Only towns with interesting heritage sites and tourism will prosper.

Or die slower

whisky_galore

kneemos wrote: »

The internet has killed all of those small independent shops that used to survive and do well in small towns.
They just can't compete price wise with online and improved motorway access to larger towns and chain stores.

It happens in cities as well. Anything that can be bought online from a warehouse and delivered to your door, so bookshops, record stores and things like that are kind of fcuked.

An Post didn't close down the post offices and Centra or whoever didn't close down the local shop, they closed down because people weren't using them or shopping there.

I think the only towns or villages that do reasonably well have a tourist or foodie angle, and that's seasonal, pretty much.

Graces7

kneemos wrote: »

The internet has killed all of those small independent shops that used to survive and do well in small towns.
They just can't compete price wise with online and improved motorway access to larger towns and chain stores.

The big supermarkets that are in easy parking shopping centres attract away from the smaller town /village centre shops.

For ease of access as well as lower prices Smaller chains do better in isolated villages.

whisky_galore

JupiterKid wrote: »

No problem whatsoever with farmers and those working the land wanting to built rural one off housing. That’s allowed in most developed countries. But let’s not kid ourselves here - the vast vast majority of one-off rural housing is resided in by those with no connection to the land and who commute often long distances to work in large towns and cities.

Farmers often sold these sites as a way to generate income. This sort of urban generated one off rural housing is pretty much completely banned in Great Britain and most Continental European countries, Greece and the poorer regions of one or two other Mediterranean countries excepted.

There is no doubt in my mind that this has led to the demise of the small and medium sized Irish rural town.

Everyone wants the house with the obligatory garden and trampoline. And there's the 'keep up with the Jones's' factor with the soulless McMansion.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

One off housing has ripped the life out of the towns. It's now just one off housing and driving to wherever Lidl/tesco etc are. They made their own mess by building these monstrosities instead of living in communities, we are after all social animals.

Don’t buy that at all since these people still have to shop or socialise somewhere.

It’s the American malls on the outskirts of towns that destroyed these towns as they did in America.

Franz Von Peppercorn

zetalambda wrote: »

Or die slower

Naw. Tourist towns continue to grow and avoid recessions. They are not dying.

Harry Palmr

For some reason the concept of the village is an anathema for most Irish people, for a nation which is supposedly so convivial and communautaire the obsession with living in an isolated white low box is curious.

Ronaldinho

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

Also, isolation. It's not good to never see people.

What planet are you on? You think everyone living in the country is reclusive?

danganabu

Ronaldinho wrote: »

What planet are you on? You think everyone living in the country is reclusive?

You are arguing with someone who thinks its healthier to live in a built up area than it is to live in the country side, I really wouldnt bother tbh.

ArchXStanton

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Rates often kill these towns. Often the main streets are boarded up or just carbon copy franchises as the rates are so absurdly high for small businesses they dont bother and the only one can afford them are major soulless vacous conglomorates like mobile phone networks, British pound shops and fast food franchises. Sound faimiliar?.


Every street every biggish/medium town in Ireland has little to no independent retailers.

I've noticed in a few towns purposely built industrial estates that house the same culprits...B&Q,Smyths Toys,Woodies,Halfords,Harvey Norman etc and a KFC or Costa coffee to the side

jmayo

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

One off housing has ripped the life out of the towns. It's now just one off housing and driving to wherever Lidl/tesco etc are. They made their own mess by building these monstrosities instead of living in communities, we are after all social animals.

Jaysus fook.
There is always someone ready to go and have a pop at one off rural houses.

In parts of Mayo there were actually more one off houses in the past.
I could take you to 10 or 20 houses that once existed and are now either just empty barns or just a ruin.
Yes there have been some new houses, but a lot of families emigrated and left a house.
Granted the new houses are a lot bigger than the old three room farmhouse.

Small villages and towns no longer have the local labour force numbers nearby because those functions have been automised and workers replaced by machinery and technology.
A lot of small local industries have gone and we now have FDI funded multinationals in the nearest big town or city providing what jobs there are available in an area.
Also a lot of local employment is either county council, civil servants in a state department or quango.

Small towns and villages are dying because people have cars and they now travel to bigger shops and retail parks offering more choice and cheaper goods.

If you live in a small village or town you don't do your weekly shop in the local Spar or Centra, but like everyone else in the country you go to the nearest Tesco, Dunnes or especially now Lidl or Aldi.
More choice and cheaper.

Or maybe you think people in the country outside of cities and big towns are less deserving of choice and value ?

Go to Liffey Valley, Carrickmines, etc of a weekend and just see how many people have travelled to them from throughout the city of Dublin.

Or is it just ok for people in Dublin or a big city to use their cars ? :rolleyes:

doolox

I remember working with a woman whose family has a farm and were willing to give her a site to build a house on. Because she was not a farmer she was refused planning permission and had to buy a smaller house in a housing estate near her work. The house cost so much that she was forced to work full-time to pay off the much bigger mortgage on the much smaller house that she was forced to buy instead of the house she wanted to build on her parents land.

The resentment of being forced to live in a smaller house and a much dearer house was evident to all who had to work with her. Her productivity and joy of working were non existent.

The sudden closing off of one off housing probably has had similar effects on many working people, forcing many otherwise well-off people to work longer hours in jobs they hate in order to subscribe to the dictates of the planning authorities in some counties.

andekwarhola

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Motorway bypasses have killed some towns like Mountrath and Borris-in-Ossory.

A pleasant reminder that I never have to drive through it again.

jmayo

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

Reliance on cars. Also, isolation. It's not good to never see people.

So long as I am isolated from you I will be grand.

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I've noticed in a few towns purposely built industrial estates that house the same culprits...B&Q,Smyths Toys,Woodies,Halfords,Harvey Norman etc and a KFC or Costa coffee to the side

Now you are talking.
I mentioned Carrickmines above and that is what it is.

But you get something similar in Castlebar, Carrick on Shannon and Sligo.
Is it ok for Carrickmines to have that but not the towns above ?

And do now expect those same retail outlets will set up in say Swinford, Ballymote, Ballinamore -all small towns in the same counties as above ?

No they won't.
But are the people of Swinford, Ballymote and Ballinamore meant not to travel to them to buy goods ?
Are they meant to buy from a local supplier that will probably charge more due to less economies of scale and also have less choice ?

And these are towns not villages like Bohola, Gurteen and Dromod where there is even less choice to be had.

The world has gotten a lot smaller and Ireland has gotten a lot smaller still.
The advent and proliferation of the automobile has seen to that.

Trasna1

The reason these towns are dying is because they don't have a reason to exist. Think about any town in rural Ireland and why it is located where it is - usually because it was a market for local agricultural produce. Is that need there any more? (Usually no) What has replaced it? (Almost always state services, like a hospital or major Social Welfare office or supplemented with a big FDI employer)

With the advent of better and faster transport, agricultural markets can be much further apart. Rural towns are general surviving on an insufficient mix of government transfers through direct employment by the state and welfare as well as FDI.

LirW

They don't die out, it's just the proportion of Polish people getting higher.

Chaos Tourist

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

Motorway bypasses have killed some towns like Mountrath and Borris-in-Ossory. Only towns with interesting heritage sites and tourism will prosper.

The Ireland 2040 National Planning Framework document expects another 1 million people to be living in Ireland in 2040, with half of them outside Greater Dublin in existing urban centres.

However, if the jobs continue to centre on Dublin, it's Leinster that will get clogged up.

Communities need jobs to thrive. If there's no jobs, Joe Public will still be getting the 6.25am train from Enniscorthy to Connolly.

On the bright side Joe Public might be traveling via jetpack to Dublin by the 2040s? It could be fun.

Stonedpilot

ArchXStanton wrote: »

I've noticed in a few towns purposely built industrial estates that house the same culprits...B&Q,Smyths Toys,Woodies,Halfords,Harvey Norman etc and a KFC or Costa coffee to the side

Yeah the towns Im describing. Point being the franchises are still dominant on the high street.

Why not independent only for the main high streets and shopping centres industrial estates for the corporate boyos

whisky_galore

LirW wrote: »

They don't die out, it's just the proportion of Polish people getting higher.

What is that even supposed to mean?

Daisy78

doolox wrote: »

I remember working with a woman whose family has a farm and were willing to give her a site to build a house on. Because she was not a farmer she was refused planning permission and had to buy a smaller house in a housing estate near her work. The house cost so much that she was forced to work full-time to pay off the much bigger mortgage on the much smaller house that she was forced to buy instead of the house she wanted to build on her parents land.

The resentment of being forced to live in a smaller house and a much dearer house was evident to all who had to work with her. Her productivity and joy of working were non existent.

The sudden closing off of one off housing probably has had similar effects on many working people, forcing many otherwise well-off people to work longer hours in jobs they hate in order to subscribe to the dictates of the planning authorities in some counties.

But the Planning Authority should only do right by the local community and environment, not Mary who wants to live next to mammy and daddy. You should be required to demonstrate a genuine need to live in the countryside as in you make your livelihood from the land, in other words farming.

Lack of investment is the big one here. Jobs are being created in many places in the countryside, but they're often jobs that the locals aren't skilled to do, or else they're low-salaried manufacturing jobs with little upward movement.

I live in a mid sized town, and while there are quite a few large companies here, most of the employees are coming from abroad. They're specialists for the most part. At the same time, these companies have been in the town for over two decades, but there are no educational courses to train locals for those jobs (or incentives for the companies to hire locally... we have quite a large Indian population of software engineers). Instead, the politicians talk about some major expansion, with loads of new jobs, that the locals themselves are mostly not going to get.

My hometown is dying in terms of Irish people my own age (40) or below. I returned to Ireland late last year, and there are very few people I know remaining, with most moving to Dublin or abroad. The town is booming in terms of people... just very few of them are Irish, and the locals are either the very young or the old. But, hey! we should embrace our multicultural environment.

I have two Business degrees (and heaps of experience), and couldn't find work in the area. All the jobs relate to hospitality, pharmaceuticals, or tech-science. The remaining jobs are the basics like working in a pub (not terribly useful for someone like me with a shaking disorder), or low paid part-time work in the cafes nearby.

This town and many others like it need serious investment and job creation, in non-specialised fields. There is so little administrative work here. Everything to do with operations is Dublin based. In fact, most things are Dublin based... which is what past governments have set out to do.

kneemos

They're not commuting from abroad presumably.
They're locals as well and spend their wages where they live.

kneemos

kneemos wrote: »

They're not commuting from abroad presumably.
They're locals as well and spend their wages where they live.

:facepalm:

Never mind. Some people just don't get it.

Harry Palmr

kneemos wrote: »

They're not commuting from abroad presumably.
They're locals as well and spend their wages where they live.

The league of gentlemen mentality is strong for some unfortunately! At best they are the wrong sort of locals.

whisky_galore

Daisy78 wrote: »

But the Planning Authority should only do right by the local community and environment, not Mary who wants to live next to mammy and daddy. You should be required to demonstrate a genuine need to live in the countryside as in you make your livelihood from the land, in other words farming.

So no one is allowed to live in the countryside only farmers?
Right.

Graces7

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich wrote: »

Reliance on cars. Also, isolation. It's not good to never see people.

People who are working see folk all day every day. Seek some peace then. Nothin wrong with cars.

biko

There's a reason "Tipp" rhymes with "kip".

Graces7

Harry Palmr wrote: »

For some reason the concept of the village is an anathema for most Irish people, for a nation which is supposedly so convivial and communautaire the obsession with living in an isolated white low box is curious.

The Irish are those things; when it is their own family and friends. But they are poor at welcoming strangers/blow ins etc into a village community.

Also folk want new houses in attractive countryside and have no interest in the local community,

Graces7

Daisy78 wrote: »

But the Planning Authority should only do right by the local community and environment, not Mary who wants to live next to mammy and daddy. You should be required to demonstrate a genuine need to live in the countryside as in you make your livelihood from the land, in other words farming.

In some areas you are not allowed to buy or build unless you have a viable, real connection with the area and/or are about to take up work there. It is specified on ads.

JupiterKid

JupiterKid wrote: »

2. Loss of key major employers/ industry. The loss of the sugar beet factories in the 1980s/90s effectively decimated towns like Tuam and Thurles as a huge proportion of these towns’ wealth was dependent on these industries, workers would support local shops and businesses etc (the “multiplier” effect). Also the failed IDA policy in the 1960s to 1980s of trying to lure branch plant assembly factories down to rural towns backfired badly as they simply upped sticks and abandoned the towns they were in after their tax breaks ran out. Again decimating their host towns economically.

Major industry these days wants to be located in major urban areas close to airports, motorways and skilled and diverse young labour force, not in a midlands town with poor roads (and back the 1970s and early 80s for those too young to remember) a 3rd world telephone system.

I wonder what you think a town like Tuam should look like? You make it sound like they stopped all the clocks when the sugar factory closed and it has been in decline since. It isn't. The population is growing, it has a motorway and less than an hour from two airports. There is some pretty hi tech stuff happening in Tuam in the likes of Valeo (they are recruiting:
http://www.valeovision.com/recruitment)
What should Tuam or any of these towns be doing differently?
What are you comparing them to - cities many times their size?

Daisy78

whisky_galore wrote: »

Daisy78 wrote: »

But the Planning Authority should only do right by the local community and environment, not Mary who wants to live next to mammy and daddy. You should be required to demonstrate a genuine need to live in the countryside as in you make your livelihood from the land, in other words farming.

So no one is allowed to live in the countryside only farmers?
Right.

It would seem not, going by the fabulous bungalow blitz we have had to endure In this country over the last 30 odd years.

Capt'n Midnight

Anyone remember how decentralisation went ?

Civil servants were staying away in droves.


So yeah , that could have provided a boost to the local economy.

In theory better interwebs means more people could telecommute and should be cheaper for startups but in practice not so much.

Daisy78

Deleted User wrote: »

JupiterKid wrote: »

2. Loss of key major employers/ industry. The loss of the sugar beet factories in the 1980s/90s effectively decimated towns like Tuam and Thurles as a huge proportion of these towns’ wealth was dependent on these industries, workers would support local shops and businesses etc (the “multiplier” effect). Also the failed IDA policy in the 1960s to 1980s of trying to lure branch plant assembly factories down to rural towns backfired badly as they simply upped sticks and abandoned the towns they were in after their tax breaks ran out. Again decimating their host towns economically.

Major industry these days wants to be located in major urban areas close to airports, motorways and skilled and diverse young labour force, not in a midlands town with poor roads (and back the 1970s and early 80s for those too young to remember) a 3rd world telephone system.

I wonder what you think a town like Tuam should look like? You make it sound like they stopped all the clocks when the sugar factory closed and it has been in decline since. It isn't. The population is growing, it has a motorway and less than an hour from two airports. There is some pretty hi tech stuff happening in Tuam in the likes of Valeo (they are recruiting:
http://www.valeovision.com/recruitment)
What should Tuam or any of these towns be doing differently?
What are you comparing them to - cities many times their size?

Tuam probably isn't one of the towns that would fall into this category though, it is a commuter town for Galway and that is a big factor in its sustainability.

divillybit

Daisy78 wrote: »

But the Planning Authority should only do right by the local community and environment, not Mary who wants to live next to mammy and daddy. You should be required to demonstrate a genuine need to live in the countryside as in you make your livelihood from the land, in other words farming.

Im from a rural background, and there are very few young full time farmers...farming doesent pay well at all.. Id never give up my day job to be a full time farmer and Im very interested in farming. But what im getting at is if planning permission is only being granted to people with a connection to the locality then its no wonder rural Ireland is declining. Id never go build on a greenfield site near my homeplace as self builds are too expensive I think , especially because of development levies and connecting to mains water. My local county town of Roscommon was hit hard enough by the recession but its doing alright now again.

buried

The big huge f**king houses with the big huge useless Dermot Bannon windows are going up all over the place again outside the little demising towns. Hold on to your cocks.

SirChenjin

Graces7 wrote: »

The Irish are those things; when it is their own family and friends.But they are poor at welcoming strangers/blow ins etc into a village community.

Also folk want new houses in attractive countryside and have no interest in the local community,

Not in my experience.

And sometimes people -whether native or strangers- choose to live reclusive lives.

Potential-Monke

Why is living reclusive a bad thing? If i could afford it, I'd be living by myself in the middle of the country, as long as it had decent enough internet. People are dicks, they're fake and all they want to talk about is what x person did, who y is shagging, they're always in the same bars with the same people drinking the same pi$s and talking the same sh!te, being nosey and interfering with other peoples lives. I hate that, I want no part of it. Rumours and gossip making people do and say things they shouldn't be doing or saying. My life is no one else's business. I don't care what mary from up the road is doing, or who Mike from over yonder is riding.

I want to live in a rural house with no one near me for not just that reason though. People living in the city are missing out on one of the most amazing free sights in the world. The night sky. With all that light pollution, you just don't get to see, in person, the views I get when I arrive home from work at 11pm. Little to no light pollution, and suddenly you can see the millions of stars up there, compared to the odd few bright ones you may get in towns and cities. Couple that with Google Night Sky (on the lowest brightness) and you start seeing things that you've only heard or read about.

And yes, I will drive that extra bit to go to Aldi/Lidl/Tesco/wherever, because why wouldn't I? The government takes nearly half of what I earn, so why can't I make the other half last longer by shopping cheaper, leaving more for me to enjoy my life with, instead of being stuck in the grind of life that the Government love. I will shop online if it's cheaper. I'll buy digitally if it's cheaper. Not my fault shops can't keep up with the prices, like us they want the cheapest option available, but it still can't beat online. We need to move with the times, develop ideas and amenities that people will use locally, instead of setting up the same crap everywhere. What worked years ago won't work now, and that's what people are not willing to accept. Times change, we need to change with them.

suicide_circus

One solution would be to cut off the internet everywhere outside the m50