Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

stephen_n · 04-05-2018 12:37PM

awec wrote: »

Stephen, let's talk about an example scenario cause I feel it's the only way we're going to end this nonsense.

Joey Carbery moves to Ulster. Ulster pick him every week on the wing.

What happens?

Again what can they do at Ulster that they couldn’t do at Leinster, very simple question.

jacothelad · 04-05-2018 02:16PM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I think after the reaction to the rumours of Sale signing them and the sponsors putting the boot in that, England is out of the equation.

I wonder would Super Rugby/Mitre 10 be an option for a season.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's possible, it doesn't appear as if it's ever occurred but it's possible. I'd be surprised if many coaches were happy signing up for a province where there was a risk of that kind of oversight but who knows.

What I posted however is directly from the horses mouth as it were so I trust the accuracy.

Theer are probably a few neigh sayers though........:D

molloyjh · 04-05-2018 02:19PM

awec wrote: »

Stephen, let's talk about an example scenario cause I feel it's the only way we're going to end this nonsense.

Joey Carbery moves to Ulster. Ulster pick him every week on the wing.

What happens?

Joey plays on the wing?

I mean, let's take a real world example. One that happened in the real world. 6 days ago. Joey was selected to play at 15 for Leinster. He played at 15. He did not play at 10. It was a nothing game, one that Leinster in all reality didn't care about. It wasn't a big game where the IRFU/Joe/Nucifora were unwilling to meddle. It was one where, if Joe could force a coaches hand, Joey could have been playing at 10. He didn't. It wasn't a game where Leinster had no other options at 15. They had a number of other options.

Joey wasn't selected to play 10 for Leinster. He didn't play 10. If Joey wasn't selected at 10 for Ulster then chances are, based on every shred of evidence we have, he wouldn't be the 10. Like 6 days ago.

sydthebeat · 04-05-2018 02:30PM

Ah lads, Joe schmidt doesn't get to pick the provincial teams.....

prawnsambo · 04-05-2018 02:32PM

molloyjh wrote: »

Joey plays on the wing?

I mean, let's take a real world example. One that happened in the real world. 6 days ago. Joey was selected to play at 15 for Leinster. He played at 15. He did not play at 10. It was a nothing game, one that Leinster in all reality didn't care about. It wasn't a big game where the IRFU/Joe/Nucifora were unwilling to meddle. It was one where, if Joe could force a coaches hand, Joey could have been playing at 10. He didn't. It wasn't a game where Leinster had no other options at 15. They had a number of other options.

Joey wasn't selected to play 10 for Leinster. He didn't play 10. If Joey wasn't selected at 10 for Ulster then chances are, based on every shred of evidence we have, he wouldn't be the 10. Like 6 days ago.

Except he kinda did. :P

molloyjh · 04-05-2018 03:09PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Except he kinda did. :P

Taking restarts and kicks at goal isn't playing at 10. Even filling in as second receiver from time to time isn't. Sure Isa has done all that stuff before a fair bit. Ross Byrne played at 10. Joey Carbery didn't.

Larbre34 · 04-05-2018 05:57PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

Ah lads, Joe schmidt doesn't get to pick the provincial teams.....

Nope, he can just dictate who doesn't play, which amounts to the same thing.

sydthebeat · 04-05-2018 06:19PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Nope, he can just dictate who doesn't play, which amounts to the same thing.

No its not. Saying which players aren't available for selection isn't the same as picking the team.

Joe can't tell Leo that he must play Joey at 10 and Jordan at 15 (for example)

No coach with any degree of self respect would work under those conditions.

BBDBB · 04-05-2018 07:14PM

I think that there is a clear line of demarcation between the two roles International coach and Provincial coach, its beneficial to have an open and productive dialogue on a regular basis about players, their merits and development issues at both provincial and international level. Im sure the boundaries of those two roles will (and indeed should) be used occasionally as both parties seek to advance the agenda that suits them. Both should recognise that their influence has limits AND responsibilities

I suggest we leave them to it as I doubt that either side would let the relationship crash and burn, but both sides will seek to gain the best advantage for their own role. Its not always going to be compatible but then neither should it, let them discuss and argue and work towards some collaborative solutions

if all else fails

Dance off!

Buer · 04-05-2018 07:16PM

sydthebeat wrote:

No coach with any degree of self respect would work under those conditions.

But what about an Ulster coach?

BBDBB · 04-05-2018 07:17PM

Buer wrote: »

But what about an Ulster coach?

vesuv-1-e1446765743550.jpg?fit=731%2C225

sydthebeat · 04-05-2018 07:37PM

Buer wrote: »

But what about an Ulster coach?

What ulster coach?

joseywhales · 04-05-2018 09:17PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

Buer wrote: »

But what about an Ulster coach?

What ulster coach?

Ulster coach?

Larbre34 · 04-05-2018 09:34PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

No its not. Saying which players aren't available for selection isn't the same as picking the team.

Joe can't tell Leo that he must play Joey at 10 and Jordan at 15 (for example)

No coach with any degree of self respect would work under those conditions.

All the provincial coaches basically do work under those conditions. Whats different between that and Joey being sent to Ulster for the purpose of him playing 10 ahead of the World Cup? McFarland coming in (whenever that happens) has his 10 dictated to him. McPhillips could kick goals from 140 metres from atop a unicycle and he and his coach cant do anything about putting him in the team

irishbucsfan · 04-05-2018 09:46PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

McPhillips could kick goals from 140 metres from atop a unicycle and he and his coach cant do anything about putting him in the team

What absolute gibberish! :pac:

McPhillips is IQ! How do people convince themselves of this stuff. If it was an overseas 10 maybe there's be some sliver of reality to this.

If the Irish coach can dictate selections of 10s at provinces, that'd certainly be news to Matt O'Connor and Ian Madigan.

errlloyd · 04-05-2018 09:48PM

The whole thing is a bit like the movie moneyball. When Brad Pitt as general manager has to fire a hunch of perfectly good players to force the coach into picking the team he wants.

Dubinusa · 04-05-2018 10:29PM

McPhillips may turn out to be better than Carberry. At least as an out half.

Former Former · 04-05-2018 10:56PM

Dubinusa wrote: »

McPhillips may turn out to be better than Carberry. At least as an out half.

And Joe Schmidt would be delighted if this was the case, but he can't just leave McPhillips there unchallenged in the hope it pans out.

sydthebeat · 05-05-2018 02:13AM

Former Former wrote: »

And Joe Schmidt would be delighted if this was the case, but he can't just leave McPhillips there unchallenged in the hope it pans out.

And neither can he say "play Mc philips until its obvious he's crap"...

He doesn't select the team set up.

Former Former · 05-05-2018 10:10AM

sydthebeat wrote: »

And neither can he say "play Mc philips until its obvious he's crap"...

He doesn't select the team set up.

And he won't need to.

Dan McFarland is coming in with absolutely no preconceived idea about either Carbery or McPhillips. If this all happens and we end up in a situation where he wants to pick McPhillips, then that's that.

But if Carbery stays where he is, then we end up in a situation where we have possibly the three best tens at one province and Ulster having to sign a foreign guy. That's on top of Connacht already having a foreign 10. In a World Cup year?? Madness.

Moving someone north is an absolute no brainer. The only loser is Leinster.

Hands Like Flippers · 05-05-2018 10:19AM

Fair bit of guessing over the last 10 pages or so.

Basically from what I can see most supporters of LR and UR are happy if Joey stays in LR.

Probably talked this one to death... until the next Joey rumour that is.

bilston · 05-05-2018 11:00AM

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

Fair bit of guessing over the last 10 pages or so.

Basically from what I can see most supporters of LR and UR are happy if Joey stays in LR.

Probably talked this one to death... until the next Joey rumour that is.

The reason Ulster fans are dubious about it is that Carbery will almost certainly only move for a season. If he stays long term then I'd be delighted with him coming. One season though doesn't really help us.

That said McPhillips will still get plenty of gametime, Lowry will hopefully get a chance too, plus Carbery (and McPhillips for that matter) can play 15 so there should be chances for all.

So far from ideal for Ulster if it's only for a season, but better than nothing at all which might be the alternative.

Not that that matters. The truth is that it's ideal for Ireland and that's what really matters here. Whether it's good for Ulster or Leinster is very much secondary. I think a lot of people (not necessarily on Boards) have difficulty accepting that.

bilston · 05-05-2018 11:01AM

Former Former wrote: »

sydthebeat wrote: »

And neither can he say "play Mc philips until its obvious he's crap"...

He doesn't select the team set up.

And he won't need to.

Dan McFarland is coming in with absolutely no preconceived idea about either Carbery or McPhillips. If this all happens and we end up in a situation where he wants to pick McPhillips, then that's that.

But if Carbery stays where he is, then we end up in a situation where we have possibly the three best tens at one province and Ulster having to sign a foreign guy. That's on top of Connacht already having a foreign 10. In a World Cup year?? Madness.

Moving someone north is an absolute no brainer. The only loser is Leinster.

It doesn't do much for developing Ulster 10s moving forward. That's where it might hurt Ulster.

Former Former · 05-05-2018 11:07AM

bilston wrote: »

It doesn't do much for developing Ulster 10s moving forward. That's where it might hurt Ulster.

It's no worse in that respect than signing some journeyman Kiwi, but at least moving an Irish guy holds out some prospect of a benefit for Ireland.

awec · 05-05-2018 11:24AM

Former Former wrote: »

It's no worse in that respect than signing some journeyman Kiwi, but at least moving an Irish guy holds out some prospect of a benefit for Ireland.

Well that's not true anyway, signing an experienced journeyman at least gives McPhillips someone to learn from.

awec · 05-05-2018 11:27AM

bilston wrote: »

The reason Ulster fans are dubious about it is that Carbery will almost certainly only move for a season. If he stays long term then I'd be delighted with him coming. One season though doesn't really help us.

That said McPhillips will still get plenty of gametime, Lowry will hopefully get a chance too, plus Carbery (and McPhillips for that matter) can play 15 so there should be chances for all.

So far from ideal for Ulster if it's only for a season, but better than nothing at all which might be the alternative.

Not that that matters. The truth is that it's ideal for Ireland and that's what really matters here. Whether it's good for Ulster or Leinster is very much secondary. I think a lot of people (not necessarily on Boards) have difficulty accepting that.

I think the most annoying thing is the ultimate beneficiaries of this move at Ireland and Leinster.

It is pretty grating to be playing a guy to give him experience so he can fcuk off back to Leinster next year.

Anyway, in all honesty I hope Ulster use Carbery as little as possible with this move. McPhillips needs to be prioritised, Carbery is a handy enough bench option in fairness.

Podge_irl · 05-05-2018 11:29AM

awec wrote: »

I think the most annoying thing is the ultimate beneficiaries of this move at Ireland and Leinster.

It is pretty grating to be playing a guy to give him experience so he can fcuk off back to Leinster next year.

Anyway, in all honesty I hope Ulster use Carbery as little as possible with this move. McPhillips needs to be prioritised, Carbery is a handy enough bench option in fairness.

A new coach is 100% going to start whoever he judges are his best players and if that means Carberry starts every meaningful game at 10 than that is what will happen. There is no way McPhillips is going to be prioritised unless he is viewed as the better player.

bilston · 05-05-2018 11:46AM

awec wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

The reason Ulster fans are dubious about it is that Carbery will almost certainly only move for a season. If he stays long term then I'd be delighted with him coming. One season though doesn't really help us.

That said McPhillips will still get plenty of gametime, Lowry will hopefully get a chance too, plus Carbery (and McPhillips for that matter) can play 15 so there should be chances for all.

So far from ideal for Ulster if it's only for a season, but better than nothing at all which might be the alternative.

Not that that matters. The truth is that it's ideal for Ireland and that's what really matters here. Whether it's good for Ulster or Leinster is very much secondary. I think a lot of people (not necessarily on Boards) have difficulty accepting that.

I think the most annoying thing is the ultimate beneficiaries of this move at Ireland and Leinster.

It is pretty grating to be playing a guy to give him experience so he can fcuk off back to Leinster next year.

Anyway, in all honesty I hope Ulster use Carbery as little as possible with this move. McPhillips needs to be prioritised, Carbery is a handy enough bench option in fairness.

Here he could move to Belfast, meet a nice BT9 girl and settle down for life...or not...I suppose the thing is anything could happen in a year.

The biggest issue for me is that JC sounds like he is needing a lot of convincing...and that's fair enough, I don' blame him for that at all...but will he be invested in the team or counting the days until his tour of duty in the Black North is over?

foxyladyxx · 05-05-2018 12:12PM

bilston wrote: »

Here he could move to Belfast, meet a nice BT9 girl and settle down for life...or not...I suppose the thing is anything could happen in a year.

The biggest issue for me is that JC sounds like he is needing a lot of convincing...and that's fair enough, I don' blame him for that at all...but will he be invested in the team or counting the days until his tour of duty in the Black North is over?

Precisely. .it may very well be that Joey settles in the north and is happy to sign a contract for a longer stay. Nobody knows how it will play out over the next season.

If he does not show his potential early on in the season [and there is a lot of pressure on him to perform] perhaps McPhillips becomes the chosen one.

Who knows?

But the move is benefitting Ulster in tiding them over until a coach is in place but could well be a loss to Leinster.

clsmooth · 05-05-2018 12:51PM

bilston wrote: »

Here he could move to Belfast, meet a nice BT9 girl and settle down for life...or not...I suppose the thing is anything could happen in a year.

The biggest issue for me is that JC sounds like he is needing a lot of convincing...and that's fair enough, I don' blame him for that at all...but will he be invested in the team or counting the days until his tour of duty in the Black North is over?

Kiwirish by birth, Ulster by the grace of Schmidt

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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