Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*

Hawkeye6 · 03-05-2018 09:33AM

Solutions; Last weekend I was listening to a radio discussion on the month of April for Clubs. Aaron Kernan of the CPA was involved with John Doyle of Kildare and Diarmuid Lawlor of Tipperary. Darren Frehill and Jacqui Hurley were the presenters. The subject was that April for clubs hadn’t worked yet I noted that each were happy their own county did a good job in April. Make what you will of that. In my own personal opinion, the only one that spoke any sense and asked good questions was Jacqui Hurley. The men were very poor. The end result was none of them had a solution, to what apparently is a huge problem but not in their county.

There are a lot of posters here who are not happy with the way April went. I don’t disagree with the majority of the sentiments, given the guidelines, but I do disagree with the blame game from several. It certainly is not helpful in the debate in Kilkenny. Ignoring the factors of the weather, the national fixtures calendar, the gap created by the move to Under-17 for minors and the demand on pitches and referees is naïve to say the least. There are no easy solutions.

Some posters have gone to great lengths to word solutions. All of which have “flaws”, but I personally would not pick on them or comment on them because they are at least throwing ideas out there that someone might pick up and expand. I’m not sure if any of these lads have power in a club, but if not they are good candidates as administrators. Two things I would note is that firstly, there is no point in slagging counties like Clare who have played nothing. Maybe their approach of keeping all their championship games together might turn out to be the best approach when reviewed at the end of the year. It certainly has advantages from the point of view of preparation, administration and management. It would be no season of “two halves”. The second, point of note is that there is no point in moving national fixtures around to suit a Kilkenny solution. National fixtures are for all counties, not just Kilkenny. So Kilkenny solutions have to be made based on the National Fixtures and obviously you can only go by what is there currently which includes pre-season tournaments. That may change next year, but we don’t know that at the moment. But we do know that if the weather plays havoc, it will move national fixtures, so a Kilkenny solution would have to allow movement of national fixtures due to weather and obviously it needs to allow for success of the county team based on our experience of this year and on our great tradition.

For the guys who claim to represent the CPA, I still stand over my comment on their existence in Kilkenny. The evidence is there, I put direct questions out to them and none of them could answer a single question. I don’t need to repeat the questions, they know what they are. I genuinely would like to know what the CPA is doing in Kilkenny. I’m happy to be proved wrong, if they are putting together with something positive. The thing is, registering online does not constitute membership, no matter what is claimed. I’m sure a lot of these lads have registered with everything from Argos to Victoria’s Secrets or other online retail outlet. Registering did not make them a member or an employee of any of these, just because they want to win a one for all gift voucher for filling in a survey. It does not allow them contribute to the strategic future of any of the retailers. If the CPA thinks membership works this way, then they will not achieve anywhere near what the GPA has and their history will be short lived. Anyone can register and type that fact here and say they are in the CPA. “I am a paid member of the GAA and a former chairman of the county board”. I typed it but that does not make it true unless I can back it up with facts. Second bit NOT true in case anyone missed the point.

There is an existing platform, club players have paid into and that’s their local club. How many players in clubs actually care enough to turn up to club AGMs and input to them or even their wives and girlfriends we hear so much about being concerned about the holidays etc.? How many have got together to form a pressure group within their own club for change? When people talk about the County Board, let’s not forget about the club reps (whom I would agree that many are just there for the junket and are really out of touch with what is required for progress). The players are the Majority in all Clubs, they are the ones that can make change, if they really want. Get together, go to your club AGM, and get rid of the old farts and conservatives, if that is what you want. Use the system of democracy that is there rather than the virtual one.

As regards solutions, like the other posters I have ideas, but they too have flaws. What I am certain of is that to have a solution, you must have a Problem. So what is the Problem? This is my opinion for what it is worth. There are too many matches to be played!! Let me explain.

The inter-county players wanted more matches. First we got the back door and even the back-back door. Now we have the super 8s in football and the round robin provincials in hurling. More matches, Fantastic!

At club level players wanted more matches. I’ll only talk for Kilkenny. The championship was turned into a league championship, we got the Byrne Cup, we got the Aylward cup, we got the junior all-county leagues, the Martin Treacy, Fennelly cups etc. the majority of which are run on a league basis followed by a knockout . We also got a whole host of junior B leagues. We still have Under-21 and now a new Under-19 grade. We got a league and a championship in football, despite what people say. All the leagues had knockout stages and even shield finals and relegation finals. More matches, Super!

The juveniles wanted more matches, so they got leagues with knockouts and shield finals in all ages. The same happened for primary schools, secondary schools and third level colleges. More leagues with knockout stages in all codes. The Camogie and Ladies Gaelic Football similarly wanted more matches at inter-county and club level and all came up with the same as the GAA for more matches. There are Development squad across all codes for the top players with matches and blitzes. The number of matches now compared to 25 years ago before any back door, Wow! And it appears we still can’t get enough and not so long ago “Burnout” was the buzz word. All these matches use a finite number of pitches, referees and most importantly supporters pool that the same organisation relies on to pay at the gate and keep the organisation growing. There is no shortage of matches for those who want them. Some of the codes have introduced social games such as Gaelic4Mothers which allows people to play for fun and many of these people are the back bone of club fundraising and organising.

All these extra matches are great. Almost every day from April to October, I want to be in more than one place at a time, but I can’t. I’m sure everyone reading this is the same, especially those with more than one child. All these extra matches and the major thing that has not changed and cannot be changed is the number of hours in a day and the number of days in a year!!!

Association Football had this issue in the 1930’s when it came to club players playing representative soccer, in their case, Internationals. This was in an era that had none of the professionalism of today. Their solution for the highest ranking representative tournament, the World Cup, was to play it every four years, with qualifiers running over the two year period prior to it. Now you are rolling around laughing. Laugh if you will, but the logical alternative is to reduce the number of matches again.

Another suggested solution is splitting club and county. The knock on affect is huge. If Clubs are busy throughout the summer doing their own thing; who will be available to support the inter-county setup and if that is not being supported the finances which are used to support club grants start drying up. Club development recedes. Conversely, maybe lads want to support their inter-county team and won’t bother turning up if there is a fixture clash which would put us back to where are now anyway. And does it require another level of organisation separate from the county board to run the inter-county team? And how would the movement between inter-county and club work? I could ramble on here on how it might work in practical terms, but what would be the point, nobody really wants this option, or do they?

You have to decide what is the Problem, before coming up with the solution. I believe the Problem is too many matches AND/OR not enough days? I can only think of one of those that can be fixed. The Days include weather events, deaths, communions, confirmations, weddings even stag parties etc. all of which rob from your ideal match days. Or could we just forget about training, just play matches. At least clubs could get rid of the overpaid coaches and managers. Let the discussion continue (without the blame game) and I’ll accept all criticism of this post on the 32nd of December!

greenspurs · 03-05-2018 12:06PM

Bravo Hawkeye.

Its the "We want more" , but now "We need Less" situation.

Its a real catch22 , and I would not criticize those that have to arrange fixtures, I could only imagine that it is a complete nightmare.

dodgysub · 04-05-2018 11:46AM

Hello all, First time poster here. I want to set out a possible solution for club v county. I am copying this from an email I sent so grammer etc might not be A1.

We have to accept that the new inter county structures are here for the foreseeable future and so this problem will not be a once–off.

This is a proposed solution for senior/intermediate grades.

Instead of 2 groups of 6, there would be one group of 12.
Each club would play 11 matches.
2 games played in April (with Inter County players)
2 games played in May (without Inter County players)
2 games played in June (without Inter County players)
2 games played in July (without Inter County players)
3 games played in August/September (with Inter County players when Kilkenny are finished)
Total – 11 games.

Do away with neutral venues for league matches. Each club would play 6/5 home matches and 5/6 away matches on alternate years. Every club would be treated the same regardless of their location.

Kilkenny u-21 players to play all league games. It would be of far greater benefit for them and the u21 team to play competitive club matches rather than training.

Keep the championship structure exactly the same
Top 4 into quarter finals and do not draw each other. Teams 1 + 2 play for league final, teams 3 + 4 play for shield.
First Round:
Team 5 plays team 8 and team 6 plays team 7. Winners to q/f and losers safe.
Team 9 plays team 12 and team 10 plays team 11. Winners to q/f and losers play in relegation final.

The advantages of the above are as follows:
1. Above all, it makes the inter county structure work for the clubs instead of being the disaster it is at the moment.
2. It gives club players a regular programme of games from April to September and then into championship.
3. Inter county players would not be required to play any additional fixtures.
4. It would increase player participation. Over 11 games, between injuries/form/exams/holidays/players going to America, every club would use at least 20 - 25 players even if they did not have any inter county players.
5. Every club is treated equally re fixtures and would get to use their own facilities for competitive games.
6. There would be big public interest in the games. If say Dicksboro played O’Loughlin Gaels on a Friday evening and both played without their county players, both teams/clubs would still want to win it badly and I am sure there would be a very good crowd at it. This would be replicated all over the county.
7. Clubs would be getting income from these games on a regular basis spread out over the year.
8. The County Board can say to Croke Park/The Media/Club Players Association etc that they had sorted the club/county problem. Kilkenny would be seen to lead the way. Kilkenny is a small county and it is turning this into an advantage. The County Board can point to a streamlined Junior Board, the introduction of the u-19 grade and the above as real change which benefits all players. There would be an excellent programme of games for all players depending on their ability.
9. Ultimately, a strong club scene can only be good for the Kilkenny Senior team and Kilkenny u-21 team.
10. There would not be a need for any other Senior/Intermediate competitions. The games should be fixed for Friday/Saturdays even if Kilkenny are playing on the Sunday but you are still only dealing with 2 days out of a month. After a while, clubs will re-arrange matches to suit if necessary.
11. Ultimately, the success of the season would come down to winning your championship matches. Although some clubs might feel that they are being disadvantaged because they produce several inter county players, over 11 games things would even themselves out and it would still be up to the club to progress in the championship with their full team available.

Disadvantages
??

What is really needed to make a success of this is a change in attitude from all of us. We have ourselves nearly put out of business trying to find ways not to play matches. We have arrived at the point where clubs trained for 3 months in the muck in the worst winter for 25 years for 1 – 2 matches and now just when the weather is picking up, there will be no matches for the summer. The basic purpose of any GAA club is to play games. We should all accept that there is no ‘perfect solution’ and get on with playing games.

Yours,

WhatsGoingOn2 · 04-05-2018 12:09PM

dodgysub wrote: »

Hello all, First time poster here. I want to set out a possible solution for club v county. I am copying this from an email I sent so grammer etc might not be A1.

We have to accept that the new inter county structures are here for the foreseeable future and so this problem will not be a once–off.

This is a proposed solution for senior/intermediate grades.

Instead of 2 groups of 6, there would be one group of 12.
Each club would play 11 matches.
2 games played in April (with Inter County players)
2 games played in May (without Inter County players)
2 games played in June (without Inter County players)
2 games played in July (without Inter County players)
3 games played in August/September (with Inter County players when Kilkenny are finished)
Total – 11 games.

Do away with neutral venues for league matches. Each club would play 6/5 home matches and 5/6 away matches on alternate years. Every club would be treated the same regardless of their location.

Kilkenny u-21 players to play all league games. It would be of far greater benefit for them and the u21 team to play competitive club matches rather than training.

Keep the championship structure exactly the same
Top 4 into quarter finals and do not draw each other. Teams 1 + 2 play for league final, teams 3 + 4 play for shield.
First Round:
Team 5 plays team 8 and team 6 plays team 7. Winners to q/f and losers safe.
Team 9 plays team 12 and team 10 plays team 11. Winners to q/f and losers play in relegation final.

The advantages of the above are as follows:
1. Above all, it makes the inter county structure work for the clubs instead of being the disaster it is at the moment.
2. It gives club players a regular programme of games from April to September and then into championship.
3. Inter county players would not be required to play any additional fixtures.
4. It would increase player participation. Over 11 games, between injuries/form/exams/holidays/players going to America, every club would use at least 20 - 25 players even if they did not have any inter county players.
5. Every club is treated equally re fixtures and would get to use their own facilities for competitive games.
6. There would be big public interest in the games. If say Dicksboro played O’Loughlin Gaels on a Friday evening and both played without their county players, both teams/clubs would still want to win it badly and I am sure there would be a very good crowd at it. This would be replicated all over the county.
7. Clubs would be getting income from these games on a regular basis spread out over the year.
8. The County Board can say to Croke Park/The Media/Club Players Association etc that they had sorted the club/county problem. Kilkenny would be seen to lead the way. Kilkenny is a small county and it is turning this into an advantage. The County Board can point to a streamlined Junior Board, the introduction of the u-19 grade and the above as real change which benefits all players. There would be an excellent programme of games for all players depending on their ability.
9. Ultimately, a strong club scene can only be good for the Kilkenny Senior team and Kilkenny u-21 team.
10. There would not be a need for any other Senior/Intermediate competitions. The games should be fixed for Friday/Saturdays even if Kilkenny are playing on the Sunday but you are still only dealing with 2 days out of a month. After a while, clubs will re-arrange matches to suit if necessary.
11. Ultimately, the success of the season would come down to winning your championship matches. Although some clubs might feel that they are being disadvantaged because they produce several inter county players, over 11 games things would even themselves out and it would still be up to the club to progress in the championship with their full team available.

Disadvantages
??

What is really needed to make a success of this is a change in attitude from all of us. We have ourselves nearly put out of business trying to find ways not to play matches. We have arrived at the point where clubs trained for 3 months in the muck in the worst winter for 25 years for 1 – 2 matches and now just when the weather is picking up, there will be no matches for the summer. The basic purpose of any GAA club is to play games. We should all accept that there is no ‘perfect solution’ and get on with playing games.

Yours,

Disadvantage is that no club will agree to playing without inter county players. It is really down to the luck of the draw as to when you get to play teams. Would be a big advantage to the likes of Mullinavat who have no one on the county panel at the moment

dodgysub · 04-05-2018 12:36PM

They would be at an advantage but they would still have to deal with points 4 and 11. No team is going to be in a position to put out their best 15 for 11 straight games. Is that one disadvantage enough to negate all the other advantages?

Village87 · 04-05-2018 03:22PM

dodgysub wrote: »

Hello all, First time poster here. I want to set out a possible solution for club v county. I am copying this from an email I sent so grammer etc might not be A1.

We have to accept that the new inter county structures are here for the foreseeable future and so this problem will not be a once–off.

This is a proposed solution for senior/intermediate grades.

Instead of 2 groups of 6, there would be one group of 12.
Each club would play 11 matches.
2 games played in April (with Inter County players)
2 games played in May (without Inter County players)
2 games played in June (without Inter County players)
2 games played in July (without Inter County players)
3 games played in August/September (with Inter County players when Kilkenny are finished)
Total – 11 games.

Do away with neutral venues for league matches. Each club would play 6/5 home matches and 5/6 away matches on alternate years. Every club would be treated the same regardless of their location.

Kilkenny u-21 players to play all league games. It would be of far greater benefit for them and the u21 team to play competitive club matches rather than training.

Keep the championship structure exactly the same
Top 4 into quarter finals and do not draw each other. Teams 1 + 2 play for league final, teams 3 + 4 play for shield.
First Round:
Team 5 plays team 8 and team 6 plays team 7. Winners to q/f and losers safe.
Team 9 plays team 12 and team 10 plays team 11. Winners to q/f and losers play in relegation final.

The advantages of the above are as follows:
1. Above all, it makes the inter county structure work for the clubs instead of being the disaster it is at the moment.
2. It gives club players a regular programme of games from April to September and then into championship.
3. Inter county players would not be required to play any additional fixtures.
4. It would increase player participation. Over 11 games, between injuries/form/exams/holidays/players going to America, every club would use at least 20 - 25 players even if they did not have any inter county players.
5. Every club is treated equally re fixtures and would get to use their own facilities for competitive games.
6. There would be big public interest in the games. If say Dicksboro played O’Loughlin Gaels on a Friday evening and both played without their county players, both teams/clubs would still want to win it badly and I am sure there would be a very good crowd at it. This would be replicated all over the county.
7. Clubs would be getting income from these games on a regular basis spread out over the year.
8. The County Board can say to Croke Park/The Media/Club Players Association etc that they had sorted the club/county problem. Kilkenny would be seen to lead the way. Kilkenny is a small county and it is turning this into an advantage. The County Board can point to a streamlined Junior Board, the introduction of the u-19 grade and the above as real change which benefits all players. There would be an excellent programme of games for all players depending on their ability.
9. Ultimately, a strong club scene can only be good for the Kilkenny Senior team and Kilkenny u-21 team.
10. There would not be a need for any other Senior/Intermediate competitions. The games should be fixed for Friday/Saturdays even if Kilkenny are playing on the Sunday but you are still only dealing with 2 days out of a month. After a while, clubs will re-arrange matches to suit if necessary.
11. Ultimately, the success of the season would come down to winning your championship matches. Although some clubs might feel that they are being disadvantaged because they produce several inter county players, over 11 games things would even themselves out and it would still be up to the club to progress in the championship with their full team available.

Disadvantages
??

What is really needed to make a success of this is a change in attitude from all of us. We have ourselves nearly put out of business trying to find ways not to play matches. We have arrived at the point where clubs trained for 3 months in the muck in the worst winter for 25 years for 1 – 2 matches and now just when the weather is picking up, there will be no matches for the summer. The basic purpose of any GAA club is to play games. We should all accept that there is no ‘perfect solution’ and get on with playing games.

Yours,

Years putting work into young players to thrive at club level at there peak and your suggestion is to play matches without them if there on the Kilkenny panel(and Kilkenny are carrying near 50 players up to April).. No chance. Id be hoping Kilkenny get bet in the championship as early as possible, attendances in club games would drop.

Non runner for me. Going down the route of club rugby which is now dead, no attendances player drop out and the game at its knees

Realt Dearg Sec · 04-05-2018 03:38PM

Village87 wrote: »

Years putting work into young players to thrive at club level at there peak and your suggestion is to play matches without them if there on the Kilkenny panel(and Kilkenny are carrying near 50 players up to April).. No chance. Id be hoping Kilkenny get bet in the championship as early as possible, attendances in club games would drop.

Non runner for me. Going down the route of club rugby which is now dead, no attendances player drop out and the game at its knees

Given that the root assumption he's making is that the current inter county structure will remain in place for the foreseeable future, it's the closest thing to a workable solution I've seen.

Obviously most people interested in the club game want the inter county to be restructured, but within current constraints, what better solution do you have?

(This isn't having a go, by the way, I agree that KK could and should have played two rounds last month, but this kind of patchwork, fix it as you go approach to the club season is far more disastrous than playing a few league matches without the county lads IMO)

suirway · 04-05-2018 03:55PM

dodgysub wrote: »

Hello all, First time poster here. I want to set out a possible solution for club v county. I am copying this from an email I sent so grammer etc might not be A1.

We have to accept that the new inter county structures are here for the foreseeable future and so this problem will not be a once–off.

This is a proposed solution for senior/intermediate grades.

Instead of 2 groups of 6, there would be one group of 12.
Each club would play 11 matches.
2 games played in April (with Inter County players)
2 games played in May (without Inter County players)
2 games played in June (without Inter County players)
2 games played in July (without Inter County players)
3 games played in August/September (with Inter County players when Kilkenny are finished)
Total – 11 games.

Do away with neutral venues for league matches. Each club would play 6/5 home matches and 5/6 away matches on alternate years. Every club would be treated the same regardless of their location.

Kilkenny u-21 players to play all league games. It would be of far greater benefit for them and the u21 team to play competitive club matches rather than training.

Keep the championship structure exactly the same
Top 4 into quarter finals and do not draw each other. Teams 1 + 2 play for league final, teams 3 + 4 play for shield.
First Round:
Team 5 plays team 8 and team 6 plays team 7. Winners to q/f and losers safe.
Team 9 plays team 12 and team 10 plays team 11. Winners to q/f and losers play in relegation final.

The advantages of the above are as follows:
1. Above all, it makes the inter county structure work for the clubs instead of being the disaster it is at the moment.
2. It gives club players a regular programme of games from April to September and then into championship.
3. Inter county players would not be required to play any additional fixtures.
4. It would increase player participation. Over 11 games, between injuries/form/exams/holidays/players going to America, every club would use at least 20 - 25 players even if they did not have any inter county players.
5. Every club is treated equally re fixtures and would get to use their own facilities for competitive games.
6. There would be big public interest in the games. If say Dicksboro played O’Loughlin Gaels on a Friday evening and both played without their county players, both teams/clubs would still want to win it badly and I am sure there would be a very good crowd at it. This would be replicated all over the county.
7. Clubs would be getting income from these games on a regular basis spread out over the year.
8. The County Board can say to Croke Park/The Media/Club Players Association etc that they had sorted the club/county problem. Kilkenny would be seen to lead the way. Kilkenny is a small county and it is turning this into an advantage. The County Board can point to a streamlined Junior Board, the introduction of the u-19 grade and the above as real change which benefits all players. There would be an excellent programme of games for all players depending on their ability.
9. Ultimately, a strong club scene can only be good for the Kilkenny Senior team and Kilkenny u-21 team.
10. There would not be a need for any other Senior/Intermediate competitions. The games should be fixed for Friday/Saturdays even if Kilkenny are playing on the Sunday but you are still only dealing with 2 days out of a month. After a while, clubs will re-arrange matches to suit if necessary.
11. Ultimately, the success of the season would come down to winning your championship matches. Although some clubs might feel that they are being disadvantaged because they produce several inter county players, over 11 games things would even themselves out and it would still be up to the club to progress in the championship with their full team available.

Disadvantages
??

What is really needed to make a success of this is a change in attitude from all of us. We have ourselves nearly put out of business trying to find ways not to play matches. We have arrived at the point where clubs trained for 3 months in the muck in the worst winter for 25 years for 1 – 2 matches and now just when the weather is picking up, there will be no matches for the summer. The basic purpose of any GAA club is to play games. We should all accept that there is no ‘perfect solution’ and get on with playing games.

Yours,

In my opinion this is the best solution possible. I feel the clubs would back this & certainly club players once they realise the alternatives which are this years mess (with maybe one extra game in April) or no serious hurling whatsoever until September every year. Furthermore it would have the benefit of boosting the prospects of some players who might not be always first choice on club teams of playing in meaningful matches throughout the season.

One suggestion I would make is have different weighting of points for the matches with county players as opposed to those without county players. For example 4 points for a win in those matches which include county players whereas 2 points for a win in the games without county players. In this fashion the club games are still very significant throughout the year but those clubs with more county players are not unduly penalised. So a club could pick up a max 12 points for the 6 games without county players whereas 20 points in total are on offer for the 5 April/Sept games incl. county players.

I would also suggest that the games played in June be the first two weekends & those in July be the last two weekends to still allow a gap for holidays etc.

In theory having under 21 county players hurl is great but in reality they will be training/possibly playing championship etc. This could be looked at in more detail depending on county under 21 fixtures.,

The likes of the Byrne Cup could still be maintained but on perhaps a knockout basis between the 24 senior & intermediate teams or alternatively maintain the new league divisions 1,2 & 3 and play those as a knockout with promotion & relegation between the divisions which was a good initiative by the county board.

suirway · 04-05-2018 04:02PM

Village87 wrote: »

Years putting work into young players to thrive at club level at there peak and your suggestion is to play matches without them if there on the Kilkenny panel(and Kilkenny are carrying near 50 players up to April).. No chance. Id be hoping Kilkenny get bet in the championship as early as possible, attendances in club games would drop.

Non runner for me. Going down the route of club rugby which is now dead, no attendances player drop out and the game at its knees

Can understand your reservations about this proposal but in reality the existing 5 league games with county players would remain untouched plus the championship at the end of the season would stay the same, the only difference is that the other 6 games which currently constitute the new league and were previously the Byrne Cup or Aylward Cup would become far more meaningful. In my opinion this would boost club hurling rather than have a negative effect.

dodgysub · 04-05-2018 04:06PM

One suggestion I would make is have different weighting of points for the matches with county players as opposed to those without county players. For example 4 points for a win in those matches which include county players whereas 2 points for a win in the games without county players. In this fashion the club games are still very significant throughout the year but those clubs with more county players are not unduly penalised. So a club could pick up a max 12 points for the 6 games without county players whereas 20 points in total are on offer for the 5 April/Sept games incl. county players.

As per the Irish Independent of last week, Monaghan have something similar for their leagues. Anything that sells it to the clubs should be welcomed and considered. As I said in first post, there is no 'perfect' solution. Imagine if there was a round of matches this weekend even without the county players, the clubs would have trained for the last 3 weeks, play the match this weekend, go away and enjoy the weekend and get ready next week for another match in 2 or 3 weeks time and so on during the summer. Surely that would be a thousand times better than what the clubs are facing?

danganabu · 04-05-2018 04:39PM

dodgysub wrote: »

One suggestion I would make is have different weighting of points for the matches with county players as opposed to those without county players. For example 4 points for a win in those matches which include county players whereas 2 points for a win in the games without county players.

All that will do is add a further imbalance to clubs with and without county players, I'll give an extreme example for illustration; Team A looses all 11 games by a wide margin, they have no county players ; so depending on the luck of the draw 5/6 teams are getting extra points for nothing. The opposite of course is true for a team that wins all their games.

The Monaghan system is different and will probably work, because there is no connection from the League to the Championship they are two different competitions.

The other big issue I see with your proposal is that fringe players with the county will get to play little or no hurling, they are not getting a game at county level and are ommited from half of their clubs games, so in affect they train for 10/11 months of the year and they may very well only play a grand total of 6 games a year, that is of course if they are not injured or suspended.

Any form of seperation from club and county akin to what Village has alluded to exists in Rugby will be the end of club hurling and ultimately the death knell of the organisation. The first thing that will happen is county managers will have an impossible job getting guys to commit to the county to fill positions 16-35 on their panels, secondly club players will become disillusioned with the idea of bursting their balls training all year and then told you cant have your best players for 50% of the games.

The drop off of players from minor to adult hurling is frightening and this new intercounty structure will add even further to that cliff edge we are looking over. Club players are seriously annoyed and no one is listening to them.

bamayang · 04-05-2018 04:53PM

danganabu wrote: »

All that will do is add a further imbalance to clubs with and without county players, I'll give an extreme example for illustration; Team A looses all 11 games by a wide margin, they have no county players ; so depending on the luck of the draw 5/6 teams are getting extra points for nothing. The opposite of course is true for a team that wins all their games.

The Monaghan system is different and will probably work, because there is no connection from the League to the Championship they are two different competitions.

The other big issue I see with your proposal is that fringe players with the county will get to play little or no hurling, they are not getting a game at county level and are ommited from half of their clubs games, so in affect they train for 10/11 months of the year and they may very well only play a grand total of 6 games a year, that is of course if they are not injured or suspended.

Any form of seperation from club and county akin to what Village has alluded to exists in Rugby will be the end of club hurling and ultimately the death knell of the organisation. The first thing that will happen is county managers will have an impossible job getting guys to commit to the county to fill positions 16-35 on their panels, secondly club players will become disillusioned with the idea of bursting their balls training all year and then told you cant have your best players for 50% of the games.

The drop off of players from minor to adult hurling is frightening and this new intercounty structure will add even further to that cliff edge we are looking over. Club players are seriously annoyed and no one is listening to them.

What is the drop off rate?

suirway · 04-05-2018 04:59PM

danganabu wrote: »

The other big issue I see with your proposal is that fringe players with the county will get to play little or no hurling, they are not getting a game at county level and are ommited from half of their clubs games, so in affect they train for 10/11 months of the year and they may very well only play a grand total of 6 games a year, that is of course if they are not injured or suspended.

Any form of seperation from club and county akin to what Village has alluded to exists in Rugby will be the end of club hurling and ultimately the death knell of the organisation. The first thing that will happen is county managers will have an impossible job getting guys to commit to the county to fill positions 16-35 on their panels, secondly club players will become disillusioned with the idea of bursting their balls training all year and then told you cant have your best players for 50% of the games.

But this is exactly the way it is at the moment!! They will not be omitted from any additional games than they are at the moment! Fringe players on county teams only get maybe half a dozen games a year. So unsure what way you think this proposal effects that situation?

Surely it could be agreed that those fringe players who do not make the 26 for championship matches are eligible to play any league matches on at that time.
It certainly doesn't make things any worse. As some have rightly said there is no perfect solution.

danganabu · 04-05-2018 05:08PM

suirway wrote: »

But this is exactly the way it is at the moment!! They will not be omitted from any additional games than they are at the moment! Fringe players on county teams only get maybe half a dozen games a year. So unsure what way you think this proposal effects that situation?

Surely it could be agreed that those fringe players who do not make the 26 for championship matches are eligible to play any league matches on at that time.
It certainly doesn't make things any worse. As some have rightly said there is no perfect solution.

Obviously I am not familiar with the KK structure but are you saying that currently clubs play championship games without there county players?

danganabu · 04-05-2018 05:11PM

bamayang wrote: »

What is the drop off rate?

Don't know if a country wide study has ever done, but I am just talking from my own experience and the drop off rate we would have is easily between 33-50% and we are a successfull rural club, can only imagine what a less successful or urban clubs drop off rates must be. When the minor grade changes to U17 at club level this drop off will increase dramatically also.

danganabu · 04-05-2018 05:21PM

suirway wrote: »

It certainly doesn't make things any worse. As some have rightly said there is no perfect solution.

The problem as I see it suirway is that people are trying to find solutions for the club championships and asking the clubs ''well whats your solution'' when the real problem is the structure of the county game whcih was forced upon us without any thought or due consideration to the club game.

I was at an intercounty delegates meeting that was held before Congress last year, it was an informal meeting that was held in order to gaugue the position of other counties on various motions and there was a delegate from a county who I wont name but are in the fourth tier of the hurling championship and I asked him was he was so strongly in favour of the new proposal and I was expecting, probanly naievely, an answer about exposure and delepment of the game etc. and he simply said that the reason he wanted it was because more games equals more gate receipts and his county board would get a greater share from Croke Park.

I spoke to another delegate from a fifth tier county who happen to be very successful in Football and he told me he was voting in favour of the motion because they had promised another county they would if the other county, which are primarily hurling, supported them on the Super 8 proposal.

The whole structure and sytem of how congress works is rotten to the core, as are most county boards.

Realt Dearg Sec · 04-05-2018 05:39PM

danganabu wrote: »

Obviously I am not familiar with the KK structure but are you saying that currently clubs play championship games without there county players?

No, but under this proposal they wouldn't either.

danganabu · 04-05-2018 05:44PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

No, but under this proposal they wouldn't either.

If the league is linked to the championship then its one and the same to my mind. Calling it one thing is all well and good but its still the championship.

Also on a side note it seems a bizzare system when you are better off finishing 9th that you are finishin 5th

suirway · 04-05-2018 05:50PM

danganabu wrote: »

If the league is linked to the championship then its one and the same to my mind. Calling it one thing is all well and good but its still the championship.

Also on a side note it seems a bizzare system when you are better off finishing 9th that you are finishin 5th

You are not! The bottom 4 in current system i.e. Bottom two in both groups are in a first round that also doubles up as a relegation semi final. Lose that & in the relegation final. If finish 5th to 8th inclusive in a first round also but the threat of relegation is gone.

Realt Dearg Sec · 04-05-2018 06:02PM

danganabu wrote: »

If the league is linked to the championship then its one and the same to my mind. Calling it one thing is all well and good but its still the championship.

Right but the problem you identified was that under this proposal fringe county players might only play six matches in the year in the league/championship. That's exactly the situation they face right now, so it doesn't create a new problem in that way.

blackcard · 04-05-2018 06:49PM

This proposal punishes clubs who have county players. Mullinavat have no players on the county panel playing Danesfort missing Richie Hogan and Paul Murphy. Or Ballyhale without Joey Holden, Richie Reid, TJ and Colin Fennelly. Or Bennettsbridge without Rob Lennon, Enda Morrissey, Liam Blanchfield and Jason Cleere. It would be a disaster. You could be sure that some people would put pressure on players not to play for the county if it meant that a club might be in relegation trouble.
I think a lot of the problems would be solved if county players could play with their clubs two weeks before a county matches. They will have the necessary fitness to play for the county and can work on tactics prior to the county matches.

danganabu · 04-05-2018 09:20PM

suirway wrote: »

You are not! The bottom 4 in current system i.e. Bottom two in both groups are in a first round that also doubles up as a relegation semi final. Lose that & in the relegation final. If finish 5th to 8th inclusive in a first round also but the threat of relegation is gone.

You are playing the 12th team as opposed to the 8th team for the same reward, I know which one I would take.

Realt Dearg Sec · 04-05-2018 10:21PM

danganabu wrote: »

You are playing the 12th team as opposed to the 8th team for the same reward, I know which one I would take.

I would take the one where you aren't running the risk of playing intermediate hurling next year.

danganabu · 04-05-2018 10:34PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I would take the one where you aren't running the risk of playing intermediate hurling next year.

Well if you cant beat either of the 12th team and the loosers of 10/11th teams then you might be better off Intermediate.

Realt Dearg Sec · 04-05-2018 11:58PM

danganabu wrote: »

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I would take the one where you aren't running the risk of playing intermediate hurling next year.

Well if you cant beat either of the 12th team and the loosers of 10/11th teams then you might be better off Intermediate.

Given how closely matched the teams are in the kk senior championship I'd much rather not run that risk in the first place. By your own logic, if you can't beat the top seeded teams in the league you are never going to win championship anyway, so I'm not seeing the benefit you're describing in finishing ninth and abiding playing them for a single round during which you run the risk of relegation.

This isn't tipp where half the population of the county are senior hurlers and nobody can be relegated without their express written permission

JJs Left Hand · 05-05-2018 11:33AM

Have given this zero thought but here it goes:

Play a provisional league without the county players as we do at the minute with 2 groups of 6. Top 2 in each group play league semi finals and final again with out county players.

County players return for a championship where you play a round robin 4 groups of 3 on a seeded basis based on league finishing positions. Top 2 from the league groups are top seeds, 3rd and 4th are second seeds and 5th and 6th are 3rd seeds.

Top of each championship group go to quarter finals. 2nd plays 3rd in first round. Winners to quarters. Losers to relegation semi finals.

Non county player league is played in April, May and June. 12 weeks for maximum 7 games. Leinster round robin runs concurrently.

Break in July.

Back in August after All Ireland hurling final for maximum 6 rounds of games (unless there are replays). If we run up to October bank holiday like we do at the minute that's between 8-10 weeks.

There's probably obvious flaws there as I'm making this up as I'm typing. For example clubs would be playing games the same weekend as county games. Obviously another major flaw is the disadvantage it puts clubs with county players at but by giving each team a minimum 3 games of consequence in the championship section it gives them every opportunity to reverse that disadvantage and by using the league as the non county player competition with seeding for the championship at stake it gives club players a competition of merit to play unlike the Byrne Cup or whatever its called at the minute that noone cares about.

Edit: Forgot about college and school exams

savannahkat · 05-05-2018 07:28PM

Is there any truth in the rumour that we are playing Dublin in the championship Sunday week.

babyjesus14 · 05-05-2018 09:39PM

savannahkat wrote: »

Is there any truth in the rumour that we are playing Dublin in the championship Sunday week.

So i heard and it can't come soon enough because this club v county argument has gone around the house and back again way too many times at this stage.

And any Kilkenny supporters travelling i would hope ye get on the road early and get in for the minor at 12pm. They are a seriously talented group who will have a good shot at being in Croker on the 19th of August even if our seniors don't make it that far.

brookville · 05-05-2018 10:07PM

savannahkat wrote: »

Is there any truth in the rumour that we are playing Dublin in the championship Sunday week.

Little over a week to go and a very quite build up.Its hard to know what to expect from dublin but judging by recent challenge matches its going to be physical.
The word from dublin is liam rushe is going to full foward and they'll probably have keaney,sutcliffe and maybe david treacy on the hf line.
Parnell park is always a difficult place to go and is a small pitch we'll have to be tuned in.
Thankfully no news of any fresh injuries so we should have everyone bar kevin kelly.
It'll be interesting to see if jason cleere or the other 3 make the match day squad next weekend.

Bonniedog · 05-05-2018 10:29PM

Gilroy is just putting the boys through last stage of training :-)

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/man-attacked-by-gang-with-hatchets-and-hurleys-on-busy-dublin-street/ar-AAwJjDe?ocid=spartanntp

Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

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Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*