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The demise of the small/medium sized Irish town

  • 04-05-2018 03:52PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,954 ✭✭✭✭


    Following on from (yet another) thread on Tipperary town and its multitude of problems, I see a lot of problems with medium sized Irish towns in general with the midlands counties seemingly being the worst affected (but by no means limited to just the midlands).

    Unless they are particularly picturesque and host a significant tourist attraction or are coastal or are within the commuter belts of Dublin and Cork and are feeding off the economic power of these cities, many seem to be in serious trouble.

    Why?

    I think there are a multitude of factors at play here...

    1. Atrocious planning. Allowing a free for all of rural one off housing in the environs of these towns over the past 50 years meant that very little or no middle class housing estates were built in these towns and this meant that the only estates to be developed in these towns were local authority ones. This led to the towns getting a “rough” reputation, discouraging private housing development in the towns and leading to more people wanting to live in rural one off housing outside these towns. This led a vicious spiral of decline.

    2. Loss of key major employers/ industry. The loss of the sugar beet factories in the 1980s/90s effectively decimated towns like Tuam and Thurles as a huge proportion of these towns’ wealth was dependent on these industries, workers would support local shops and businesses etc (the “multiplier” effect). Also the failed IDA policy in the 1960s to 1980s of trying to lure branch plant assembly factories down to rural towns backfired badly as they simply upped sticks and abandoned the towns they were in after their tax breaks ran out. Again decimating their host towns economically.

    Major industry these days wants to be located in major urban areas close to airports, motorways and skilled and diverse young labour force, not in a midlands town with poor roads (and back the 1970s and early 80s for those too young to remember) a 3rd world telephone system.

    3. Poor redevelopment/tax incentive strategies. When Ireland’s economic fortunes started to change for the better in the 1990s onwards, it might have seemed that many of these towns in decline might have had a shot at recovery. But at this stage, the horse had bolted by then - emigration in the bleak 80s robbed them of their skilled youth, industry had moved on and would no longer locate in these towns and badly designed shopping centers and ugly “retail parks” were allowed spring up, often outside the town centre itself, cannibalising the retail trade in these towns. In any case, many of these retail ventures failed and lie half vacant. Also poorly built and very poorly maintained apartment buildings thrown up at the edge of these town centers which in less than 15 years have aged very badly. Indeed many ended up in NAMA and are half-built empty shells as there was no real demand for such accommodation in the first place.

    Poor internet/broadband connectivity to some of these towns hasn’t helped either. The decline of the rural pub is also very noticeable in these towns. Rural towns that had 8 or 9 pubs 15 years ago perhaps have 3 or 4 now.

    Closure of local services such as Garda stations and post offices has badly affected the small towns. Increased car mobility for those who can travel mean more and more are shopping in bigger urban centers, furthering the decline of local businesses.

    Thoughts on my theories? Are these towns in an irreversible decline to the accelerating trend of urbanisation? I know many UK towns face similar problems but from my travels in Continental Europe the medium and small town seems to still be doing well. Can local industries and enterprises be revived or invested in? Can some of these towns see a renaissance?


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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich


    One off housing has ripped the life out of the towns. It's now just one off housing and driving to wherever Lidl/tesco etc are. They made their own mess by building these monstrosities instead of living in communities, we are after all social animals.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,266 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Farmer's children want to live in new houses on sites they get cheaply (or free) from their parents. Why wouldn't they?

    Years ago the extended family would live in the one house, that doesn't happen anymore as having two 'ladies of the house' would be a recipe for trouble.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭Jimbob1977


    Motorway bypasses have killed some towns like Mountrath and Borris-in-Ossory. Only towns with interesting heritage sites and tourism will prosper.

    The Ireland 2040 National Planning Framework document expects another 1 million people to be living in Ireland in 2040, with half of them outside Greater Dublin in existing urban centres.

    However, if the jobs continue to centre on Dublin, it's Leinster that will get clogged up.

    Communities need jobs to thrive. If there's no jobs, Joe Public will still be getting the 6.25am train from Enniscorthy to Connolly.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich


    Farmer's children want to live on sites they get cheaply (or free) from their parents. Why wouldn't they?

    Years ago the extended family would live in the one house, that doesn't happen anymore as having two 'ladies of the house' would be a recipe for trouble.

    Because it's bad for the environment, health, so many reasons.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭Stonedpilot


    Rates often kill these towns. Often the main streets are boarded up or just carbon copy franchises as the rates are so absurdly high for small businesses they dont bother and the only one can afford them are major soulless vacous conglomorates like mobile phone networks, British pound shops and fast food franchises. Sound faimiliar?.


    Every street every biggish/medium town in Ireland has little to no independent retailers.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    This is purely observation based on people I know but I think younger people are less likely to want to stay in a small town their entire lives, perhaps tied into the growth of portraying a social media lifestyle. Practically every young person I know now wants to be Ina. Big city with plenty of consumer options.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,954 ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    No problem whatsoever with farmers and those working the land wanting to built rural one off housing. That’s allowed in most developed countries. But let’s not kid ourselves here - the vast vast majority of one-off rural housing is resided in by those with no connection to the land and who commute often long distances to work in large towns and cities.

    Farmers often sold these sites as a way to generate income. This sort of urban generated one off rural housing is pretty much completely banned in Great Britain and most Continental European countries, Greece and the poorer regions of one or two other Mediterranean countries excepted.

    There is no doubt in my mind that this has led to the demise of the small and medium sized Irish rural town.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,266 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Because it's bad for the environment, health, so many reasons.

    If you were offered a free site, why would you next to or into a town or village and pay through the nose for the privilege?

    Not everyone wants to live in a town or village either, esp if it's a bit of a dump.

    As with most things, 'the environment' is fine as long as we don't have to pay for it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,478 ✭✭✭wexie


    Because it's bad for the environment, health, so many reasons.

    I could see an argument for the environment alright....but why health?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich


    wexie wrote: »
    I could see an argument for the environment alright....but why health?

    Reliance on cars. Also, isolation. It's not good to never see people.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 194 ✭✭Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich


    If you were offered a free site, why would you next to or into a town or village and pay through the nose for the privilege?

    Not everyone wants to live in a town or village either, esp if it's a bit of a dump.

    As with most things, 'the environment' is fine as long as we don't have to pay for it.

    Personally I'd hate to live in isolation, but everyone is different. I'm not condoning their choices, but one off housing is a major factor when it comes to the death of Irish towns and villages.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,605 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    The internet has killed all of those small independent shops that used to survive and do well in small towns.
    They just can't compete price wise with online and improved motorway access to larger towns and chain stores.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 822 ✭✭✭zetalambda


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    Only towns with interesting heritage sites and tourism will prosper.

    Or die slower :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,266 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    kneemos wrote: »
    The internet has killed all of those small independent shops that used to survive and do well in small towns.
    They just can't compete price wise with online and improved motorway access to larger towns and chain stores.

    It happens in cities as well. Anything that can be bought online from a warehouse and delivered to your door, so bookshops, record stores and things like that are kind of fcuked.

    An Post didn't close down the post offices and Centra or whoever didn't close down the local shop, they closed down because people weren't using them or shopping there.

    I think the only towns or villages that do reasonably well have a tourist or foodie angle, and that's seasonal, pretty much.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    kneemos wrote: »
    The internet has killed all of those small independent shops that used to survive and do well in small towns.
    They just can't compete price wise with online and improved motorway access to larger towns and chain stores.

    The big supermarkets that are in easy parking shopping centres attract away from the smaller town /village centre shops.

    For ease of access as well as lower prices Smaller chains do better in isolated villages.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,266 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    No problem whatsoever with farmers and those working the land wanting to built rural one off housing. That’s allowed in most developed countries. But let’s not kid ourselves here - the vast vast majority of one-off rural housing is resided in by those with no connection to the land and who commute often long distances to work in large towns and cities.

    Farmers often sold these sites as a way to generate income. This sort of urban generated one off rural housing is pretty much completely banned in Great Britain and most Continental European countries, Greece and the poorer regions of one or two other Mediterranean countries excepted.

    There is no doubt in my mind that this has led to the demise of the small and medium sized Irish rural town.

    Everyone wants the house with the obligatory garden and trampoline. And there's the 'keep up with the Jones's' factor with the soulless McMansion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    One off housing has ripped the life out of the towns. It's now just one off housing and driving to wherever Lidl/tesco etc are. They made their own mess by building these monstrosities instead of living in communities, we are after all social animals.

    Don’t buy that at all since these people still have to shop or socialise somewhere.

    It’s the American malls on the outskirts of towns that destroyed these towns as they did in America.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    zetalambda wrote: »
    Or die slower :)

    Naw. Tourist towns continue to grow and avoid recessions. They are not dying.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,059 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    For some reason the concept of the village is an anathema for most Irish people, for a nation which is supposedly so convivial and communautaire the obsession with living in an isolated white low box is curious.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 829 ✭✭✭Ronaldinho


    Also, isolation. It's not good to never see people.

    What planet are you on? You think everyone living in the country is reclusive?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭danganabu


    Ronaldinho wrote: »
    What planet are you on? You think everyone living in the country is reclusive?

    You are arguing with someone who thinks its healthier to live in a built up area than it is to live in the country side, I really wouldnt bother tbh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭ArchXStanton


    Rates often kill these towns. Often the main streets are boarded up or just carbon copy franchises as the rates are so absurdly high for small businesses they dont bother and the only one can afford them are major soulless vacous conglomorates like mobile phone networks, British pound shops and fast food franchises. Sound faimiliar?.


    Every street every biggish/medium town in Ireland has little to no independent retailers.

    I've noticed in a few towns purposely built industrial estates that house the same culprits...B&Q,Smyths Toys,Woodies,Halfords,Harvey Norman etc and a KFC or Costa coffee to the side


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,226 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    One off housing has ripped the life out of the towns. It's now just one off housing and driving to wherever Lidl/tesco etc are. They made their own mess by building these monstrosities instead of living in communities, we are after all social animals.

    Jaysus fook.
    There is always someone ready to go and have a pop at one off rural houses.

    In parts of Mayo there were actually more one off houses in the past.
    I could take you to 10 or 20 houses that once existed and are now either just empty barns or just a ruin.
    Yes there have been some new houses, but a lot of families emigrated and left a house.
    Granted the new houses are a lot bigger than the old three room farmhouse.

    Small villages and towns no longer have the local labour force numbers nearby because those functions have been automised and workers replaced by machinery and technology.
    A lot of small local industries have gone and we now have FDI funded multinationals in the nearest big town or city providing what jobs there are available in an area.
    Also a lot of local employment is either county council, civil servants in a state department or quango.

    Small towns and villages are dying because people have cars and they now travel to bigger shops and retail parks offering more choice and cheaper goods.

    If you live in a small village or town you don't do your weekly shop in the local Spar or Centra, but like everyone else in the country you go to the nearest Tesco, Dunnes or especially now Lidl or Aldi.
    More choice and cheaper.

    Or maybe you think people in the country outside of cities and big towns are less deserving of choice and value ?

    Go to Liffey Valley, Carrickmines, etc of a weekend and just see how many people have travelled to them from throughout the city of Dublin.

    Or is it just ok for people in Dublin or a big city to use their cars ? :rolleyes:

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,345 ✭✭✭doolox


    I remember working with a woman whose family has a farm and were willing to give her a site to build a house on. Because she was not a farmer she was refused planning permission and had to buy a smaller house in a housing estate near her work. The house cost so much that she was forced to work full-time to pay off the much bigger mortgage on the much smaller house that she was forced to buy instead of the house she wanted to build on her parents land.

    The resentment of being forced to live in a smaller house and a much dearer house was evident to all who had to work with her. Her productivity and joy of working were non existent.

    The sudden closing off of one off housing probably has had similar effects on many working people, forcing many otherwise well-off people to work longer hours in jobs they hate in order to subscribe to the dictates of the planning authorities in some counties.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,687 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    Motorway bypasses have killed some towns like Mountrath and Borris-in-Ossory.

    A pleasant reminder that I never have to drive through it again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,226 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Reliance on cars. Also, isolation. It's not good to never see people.

    So long as I am isolated from you I will be grand. :D
    I've noticed in a few towns purposely built industrial estates that house the same culprits...B&Q,Smyths Toys,Woodies,Halfords,Harvey Norman etc and a KFC or Costa coffee to the side

    Now you are talking.
    I mentioned Carrickmines above and that is what it is.

    But you get something similar in Castlebar, Carrick on Shannon and Sligo.
    Is it ok for Carrickmines to have that but not the towns above ?

    And do now expect those same retail outlets will set up in say Swinford, Ballymote, Ballinamore -all small towns in the same counties as above ?

    No they won't.
    But are the people of Swinford, Ballymote and Ballinamore meant not to travel to them to buy goods ?
    Are they meant to buy from a local supplier that will probably charge more due to less economies of scale and also have less choice ?

    And these are towns not villages like Bohola, Gurteen and Dromod where there is even less choice to be had.

    The world has gotten a lot smaller and Ireland has gotten a lot smaller still.
    The advent and proliferation of the automobile has seen to that.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 551 ✭✭✭Trasna1


    The reason these towns are dying is because they don't have a reason to exist. Think about any town in rural Ireland and why it is located where it is - usually because it was a market for local agricultural produce. Is that need there any more? (Usually no) What has replaced it? (Almost always state services, like a hospital or major Social Welfare office or supplemented with a big FDI employer)

    With the advent of better and faster transport, agricultural markets can be much further apart. Rural towns are general surviving on an insufficient mix of government transfers through direct employment by the state and welfare as well as FDI.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    They don't die out, it's just the proportion of Polish people getting higher.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 207 ✭✭Chaos Tourist


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    Motorway bypasses have killed some towns like Mountrath and Borris-in-Ossory. Only towns with interesting heritage sites and tourism will prosper.

    The Ireland 2040 National Planning Framework document expects another 1 million people to be living in Ireland in 2040, with half of them outside Greater Dublin in existing urban centres.

    However, if the jobs continue to centre on Dublin, it's Leinster that will get clogged up.

    Communities need jobs to thrive. If there's no jobs, Joe Public will still be getting the 6.25am train from Enniscorthy to Connolly.

    On the bright side Joe Public might be traveling via jetpack to Dublin by the 2040s? It could be fun.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭Stonedpilot


    I've noticed in a few towns purposely built industrial estates that house the same culprits...B&Q,Smyths Toys,Woodies,Halfords,Harvey Norman etc and a KFC or Costa coffee to the side


    Yeah the towns Im describing. Point being the franchises are still dominant on the high street.

    Why not independent only for the main high streets and shopping centres industrial estates for the corporate boyos


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