Men’s health treated worse by the state than women - they simply ignore it.

gctest50 · 02-05-2018 03:18PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

......

With all the breast cancer screening there is,

.

Breast Check, Bowel Screen and Cervical Check are all the same PO box

We're seeing how magnificent the latter is going

seamus · 02-05-2018 03:21PM

cantdecide wrote: »

I'm surprised at your attitude, ACD.

You're confusing a deficit of compassion with a victim narrative, ACD. Men don't have the lobby for this. Fact.

Men haven't created a lobby for it. That's the point.

Women created the lobby for women's rights. And we can go around in circles saying "that's all well and good, but what about men?", but to do so is to ignore the fact that men don't get off their holes and fight for it. Men haven't worked to create a lobby for men's rights.

Fathers 4 Justice are about the only legitimate men's rights group I've ever heard of - that is, their goal has never been to erode or attack womens' rights, but just to bring attention to area(s) where men are treated less favourably.

Even then, their numbers appear small. They don't have much support, they don't have a massive groundswell of men helping them out and throwing money at them.

What's the difference? And it's not "the media don't listen to them" or "governments don't listen to them". That's something that comes about later. Feminist movements earned the privilege of being listened to, over decades of fighting and sacrifice. Why have men's rights movement failed to do the same?

02-05-2018 03:22PM

I really wish every second thread here were not some war campaign against women. So many angry men screaming at the world about women apparently having it handy and I really don't know where in our society these marginalised guys are coming from.

These women have been treated absolutely abysmally. There was a 37-year-old mother of 5 children on RnaG yesterday morning whose story was beyond belief - she had even been part of a publicity campaign for Cervical Check in 2013 - and last Sunday she got a phonecall from her consultant and she knew straight away she was one of those people from whom their results were hidden. She suspected she had cancer and contacted them months ago to seek an enquiry and their answer amounted to "Because your tests were cleared, there's nothing wrong to enquire about".

This whole story is a travesty, and it's getting bigger by the day - just so the government could save a few shillings with the initial contract. It shouldn't have to happen to your wife/grá geal/daughter/Mam/granny for you to realise all the other lives that are affected by this utterly unprofessional treatment of these women. The loss from getting this wrong. All those private family worlds with just as much legitimacy as our own. Lives, precious lives. To acknowledge this is by no means to deny men's health and supports are also awful. But trying to demean the outrage at the female lives that are being destroyed by the decisions made by the Department of Health/HSE/Cervical Check is so far from being the right approach to rectifying those poor services for men.

cantdecide · 02-05-2018 03:23PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

So when people complain about how well breast cancer patients are treated, my blood boils a little bit. And believe me, nobody is interested in hearing from breast cancer patients who are going to die from the disease. Not pink and fluffy and feel-good enough.

My mother is in her 60s and has always been through her Breastcheck visits without trouble. In the last year, she complained to her GP about symptoms and concerns she was having and was given every assurance everything was fine. She was assured that everything appeared to be okay on the day of her mammogram in December and by March she'd been through a procedure to remove three small lumps. It was eye opening to say the least. This is pretty impertinent but I find your story and similar ones truly moving, not that that makes you feel any differently, of course.

ancapailldorcha · 02-05-2018 03:25PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

You said that men needed to get off their asses and do something about it rather than whinging, which is suggesting that is all men do. You're confusing lack of political will with lack of action from men. There is lots of the latter. Fcuk all of the former.

Not suggesting that at all and I think you knew that.

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Again with this "not bothering" bullshit. There are tons of men's groups and organizations constantly trying to get heard. What you're suggesting simply isn't true.

How do you know they're not getting heard? Telling me that what I was suggesting isn't true and then failing to elaborate doesn't refute my point.

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

No, a prefect example of what you suggested wasn't happening above.

Yes, it was. A man saw a problem and decided to do something about it.

chrissb8 · 02-05-2018 03:26PM

Absolutely sick and tired of the gender slant. Sick and f****g tired of it. If my lovely Mom or dear sister were to get cervical cancer I wouldn't be sitting there thinking men have it better and women worse, I would be in bits. As if it's better for men or something as highlighted brilliantly by the OP.

It's actually just insulting to ensue the hundreds and thousands of sufferers are treated differently due to a bias in gender. Everyone suffers when a loved one gets cancer fathers, sons, brothers, friends etc. AKA men included, we're all in this together as a people. We know the HSE needs a re haul and more transparency just don't be pointing fingers at men who are no better off in terms of services in Ireland. Helps no one and creates a ridiculous/dangerous strain of thought. The 8th is one thing but I don't think anyone would sit there thinking it's better off if a woman dies than a man. That would imply that men in this country don't see women as equals which in my life and many other men I know would bite your head at such a suggestion.

RobertKK · 02-05-2018 03:28PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

And yet, my breast cancer diagnosis was made 2.5 years too late, at stage 4, when it was terminal. Delayed diagnoses happens to both genders.

With all the breast cancer screening there is, due to my age I was continually fobbed off. I had signs that were strongly indicative of, firstly, early stage cancer, and latterly secondary cancer. Completely ignored by a string of doctors until I finally got a CT to see if I had a lung problem which then showed up everything.

So when people complain about how well breast cancer patients are treated, my blood boils a little bit. And believe me, nobody is interested in hearing from breast cancer patients who are going to die from the disease. Not pink and fluffy and feel-good enough.

You are in a similar horrific situation as Vicky Phelan is in, it must be very hard listening to the news from the UK that up to 270 women had their lives shortened in their breast screening scheme.

In my opening post, I say "Let’s be clear, more needs to be done for both sexes when it comes to health". I think men and women are put into positions with cancer that could be avoided, clearly there is a problem with the system when there are people of both sexes left too late (by the system) with cancer that would normally be curable.
Excuses are no good for the people affected.

cantdecide · 02-05-2018 03:39PM

seamus wrote: »

Feminist movements earned the privilege of being listened to, over decades of fighting and sacrifice. Why have men's rights movement failed to do the same?

So what would you say to the women of Saudi Arabia? Get over yourselves, you just haven't earned it yet?

_Dara_ · 02-05-2018 03:41PM

RobertKK wrote: »

You are in a similar horrific situation as Vicky Phelan is in, it must be very hard listening to the news from the UK that up to 270 women had their lives shortened in their breast screening scheme.

I'm okay actually. A few years ago, I would have really struggled with this news story, but I'm not really that angry any more generally so I've been following the story with interest.

_Dara_ · 02-05-2018 03:42PM

cantdecide wrote: »

My mother is in her 60s and has always been through her Breastcheck visits without trouble. In the last year, she complained to her GP about symptoms and concerns she was having and was given every assurance everything was fine. She was assured that everything appeared to be okay on the day of her mammogram in December and by March she'd been through a procedure to remove three small lumps. It was eye opening to say the least. This is pretty impertinent but I find your story and similar ones truly moving, not that that makes you feel any differently, of course.

I'm glad she is doing okay now!

The crazy thing is breast cancer screening is quite imperfect. Breast cancer awareness is an industry at this point but in the background there are murmurings about whether it's really that effective. What happened to your mother is actually quite common. A woman can have a "clean" mammogram and then be diagnosed with breast cancer six months later. Mammograms frequently don't pick on irregularities.

And then of course on those breast changes checklists, nobody highlights the the signs are the same for men as for women. Keeping it "advertised" as a women's disease helps the branding. Yup, branding. It's a money-making scam at this point.

cantdecide · 02-05-2018 03:48PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

The crazy thing is breast cancer screening is quite imperfect.

Definitely true. She was all but ready for the procedure for two lumps and in a mammogram for the final prep, they found the third and had to circle back to biopsies and all that malarkey all over again which upset her more.

_Dara_ wrote: »

I'm glad she is doing okay now!

Thank you.

Outlaw Pete · 02-05-2018 03:53PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Not suggesting that at all and I think you knew that.

Of course that's what you suggested. What else do you think the following statement suggests if not that:

If men are so bothered then they need to get off their asses and actually do something about it instead of whining and expecting other people to fix things for them.

How do you know they're not getting heard? Telling me that what I was suggesting isn't true and then failing to elaborate doesn't refute my point.

I know because the issues are still there and little is being done to address them. I know because of things like Cassie Jaye's documentary for example. Here she talks about it and how society ain't listening. Something she didn't believe until she actually experienced it herself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WMuzhQXJoY

Her film was actually protested by feminists. As many men's rights meetings are in fact.

Then there's nonsense like men's meetings at Universities being cancelled because of people complaining, including staff.

ancapailldorcha · 02-05-2018 04:06PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Of course that's what you suggested. What else do you think the following statement suggests if not that...

It was clearly a general comment about the proclivity of so-called MRA's, red pillers and the like to moan about things rather than taking constructive action themselves.

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

I know because the issues are still there and little is being done to address them. I know because of things like Cassie Jaye's documentary for example. Here she talks about it and how society ain't listening. Something she didn't believe until she actually experienced it herself.

I don't recall saying that there were no issues. I said that men should actually try and fix it instead of blaming feminists for everything.

RobertKK · 02-05-2018 04:09PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It was clearly a general comment about the proclivity of so-called MRA's, red pillers and the like to moan about things rather than taking constructive action themselves.

I don't recall saying that there were no issues. I said that men should actually try and fix it instead of blaming feminists for everything.

So you agree that women blaming men for health scandals and making out men don't face similar issues is wrong?

Amirani · 02-05-2018 04:11PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If men are so bothered then they need to get off their asses and actually do something about it instead of whining and expecting other people to fix things for them.

Healthcare policy shouldn't be dictated by the campaign groups that shout loudest. Women or men should not have to protest and lobby Government to have their healthcare needs met. Equally, Government should not respond to such campaigns by making decisions that aren't based on scientific or economic rationale.

In fairness to the OP here, some of the sources they quoted have tried to paint the Smear Test scandal as some sort of endemic discrimination of the health service towards women.

Lorraine Courtney, Independent.ie wrote:

Men do not face these types of scandals – is women’s health just taken less seriously?

That's an outrageous statement to make, and has no basis in reality. You're not a "whiner" for pointing that out.

ancapailldorcha · 02-05-2018 04:11PM

RobertKK wrote: »

So you agree that women blaming men for health scandals and making out men don't face similar issues is wrong?

Where have women blamed men for health scandals?

ancapailldorcha · 02-05-2018 04:14PM

Amirani wrote: »

Healthcare policy shouldn't be dictated by the campaign groups that shout loudest. Women or men should not have to protest and lobby Government to have their healthcare needs met. Equally, Government should not respond to such campaigns by making decisions that aren't based on scientific or economic rationale.

In fairness to the OP here, some of the sources they quoted have tried to paint the Smear Test scandal as some sort of endemic discrimination of the health service towards women.

It tends to be how governments work though. It takes ages for a campaign to get any sort of notice at all. Look at how long it took to legalise same sex marriage for example. Ideally, governments would make decisions based on evidence but I don't think that we see that enough.

Amirani · 02-05-2018 04:16PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I didn't say this at all. It's frankly deceitful of you to suggest that I did.

I didn't - I quoted from the OP's listed article. Lorraine Courtney wrote it today. I've edited to add a quote source to clarify.

_Dara_ · 02-05-2018 04:16PM

Amirani wrote: »

Healthcare policy shouldn't be dictated by the campaign groups that shout loudest.

It shouldn't be but with so many diseases clamouring for attention, unfortunately attention-grabbing is required.

Which is better: not campaigning and the disease you want to advocate for getting no attention, no funding, no nothing OR becoming an advocate and trying to get some attention and funding for the disease? With the former, nothing changes. With the latter, something might.

Sitting around pontificating about what should be happening achieves the square root of fuck all.

ancapailldorcha · 02-05-2018 04:17PM

Amirani wrote: »

I didn't - I quoted from the OP's listed article.

It didn't appear that way when I was responding to your post.

seamus · 02-05-2018 04:20PM

cantdecide wrote: »

So what would you say to the women of Saudi Arabia? Get over yourselves, you just haven't earned it yet?

Really? I have no idea how we got from my post to there.

Any road, women's rights are improving slowly in Saudi, and feminist groups gaining more and more recognition, through the hard work, risk and sacrifice of activists on the ground.

How is it that activist groups that were effectively illegal and heavily stigmatised in a massively conservative culture have been able to bring about change, while completely legal groups carrying zero social or cultural demons and living in liberal cultures have been unable to do the same?

If the OP had started out with facts and figures about male health - the # of men dying, not being screened, effectiveness of scans, etc etc etc - then we might have the beginnings of a topic, of an issue to fight for.

But it didn't. The OP started out complaining about women. "Why are women complaining - they have it better than men".

Amirani · 02-05-2018 04:21PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

It shouldn't be but with so many diseases clamouring for attention, unfortunately attention-grabbing is required.

Which is better: not campaigning and the disease you want to advocate for getting no attention, no funding, no nothing OR becoming an advocate and trying to get some attention and funding for the disease? With the former, nothing changes. With the latter, something might.

Sitting around pontificating about what should be happening achieves the square root of fuck all.

I don't agree with the OP in their suggestion that men are treated worse by the State than women. I've worked within HIQA and with the National Centre for Pharmoeconomic and I've seen first hand that this is not the case. Yes, political pressure can improve support for certain areas, but fundamentally the decision making is fair and not gender-based.

The only point I agree with the OP is criticising certain sources (Lorraine Courtney as I've referenced for example) suggesting that health scandals and discrimination are exclusive to women - that's just completely false.

Muahahaha · 02-05-2018 04:27PM

seamus wrote: »

If the OP had started out with facts and figures about male health - the # of men dying, not being screened, effectiveness of scans, etc etc etc - then we might have the beginnings of a topic, of an issue to fight for.

But it didn't. The OP started out complaining about women. "Why are women complaining - they have it better than men".

Nail on the head. Why try to twist serious health issues as Men Vs. Women unless there is another agenda at play. It is pathetic to make this topic into a gender issue and it achieves nothing of value. Both men & women can and do die by cancer, that is the reality.

cantdecide · 02-05-2018 04:31PM

seamus wrote: »

Really? I have no idea how we got from my post to there.

Shall I spell it out are are you being deliberately obtuse? Answer not necessary. I know this posting style well enough.

If men do not 'work for it' they don't deserve it... this appears to be your stance.

Clear?

seamus · 02-05-2018 04:59PM

cantdecide wrote: »

If men do not 'work for it' they don't deserve it... this appears to be your stance.

Clear?

It's clear now that's what you think I said, even though I didn't.

There is a common and valid observation that the media are more reactive to women's groups and women's rights, and tend to be less reactive to men's issues.

But this did not come about overnight. It came about through effort.

My point is not "get over yourself, you haven't earned the right to be heard". But rather, "If you want to be heard, why are you not fighting for it?".

Men's rights group don't fight for men to be heard. They fight for women to be silenced.
The aforementioned F4J are the only men's rights group who I've ever seen fight for the right to be heard.

Now, I'm all open to the suggestion that, "If someone is being silenced, how can you hear them?", and the possibility that I exist in a filtered media bubble. But at the same time it has never been easier to reach people, and to target those people you want to reach. I am for all intents and purposes the archetype of an Irish male. It should be really, really, easy to reach me and engage me on men's rights topics that affect me. Yet, I am aware of no actual men's rights groups that exist beyond some oddballs on reddit and 4chan.

kunst nugget · 02-05-2018 05:01PM

cantdecide wrote: »

Shall I spell it out are are you being deliberately obtuse? Answer not necessary. I know this posting style well enough.

If men do not 'work for it' they don't deserve it... this appears to be your stance.

Clear?

I would have thought that what he meant was, if men aren't willing to campaign effectively for men's health in the same way that women's groups do then they are unfortunately not going to get the same recognition - it has nothing to do with deserving it or not. And from what I see on here on a daily basis is that man are more willing to blame women's organisations for the lack of recognition of men's issues than actually do anything about it themselves.

And another issue is that men's rights attracts a seemingly high level of red-pillers and the like which end up being a toxic presence that drive saner people away from getting involved.

professore · 02-05-2018 05:03PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Is there any topic that cannot be spun into a gender politics debate? After all the scandal of cervical cancer the OP has still managed to do exactly that. It is getting really tiresome at this stage.

The author of the Indo article did just that. Not the OP.

Deise Vu · 02-05-2018 05:05PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Where have women blamed men for health scandals?

Did you actually read the OP? Go back and have a look.

professore · 02-05-2018 05:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I really wish every second thread here were not some war campaign against women. So many angry men screaming at the world about women apparently having it handy and I really don't know where in our society these marginalised guys are coming from.

These women have been treated absolutely abysmally. There was a 37-year-old mother of 5 children on RnaG yesterday morning whose story was beyond belief - she had even been part of a publicity campaign for Cervical Check in 2013 - and last Sunday she got a phonecall from her consultant and she knew straight away she was one of those people from whom their results were hidden. She suspected she had cancer and contacted them months ago to seek an enquiry and their answer amounted to "Because your tests were cleared, there's nothing wrong to enquire about".

This whole story is a travesty, and it's getting bigger by the day - just so the government could save a few shillings with the initial contract. It shouldn't have to happen to your wife/grá geal/daughter/Mam/granny for you to realise all the other lives that are affected by this utterly unprofessional treatment of these women. The loss from getting this wrong. All those private family worlds with just as much legitimacy as our own. Lives, precious lives. To acknowledge this is by no means to deny men's health and supports are also awful. But trying to demean the outrage at the female lives that are being destroyed by the decisions made by the Department of Health/HSE/Cervical Check is so far from being the right approach to rectifying those poor services for men.

This is of course all true - I have a wife and two daughters. I have a mother who waited 3 years for 2 hip replacements in chronic pain. A father who died from a perfectly treatable heart valve issue. However the author of the piece specifically made the point, as the headline of the article, that Ireland doesn't care about women's health, when in fact the point is that Ireland doesn't care about anyone's health. The OP isn't bashing anyone, just making the point that health is being portrayed as a gender issue when it isn't. Maybe the OP hates women, I don't know. But he/she has a valid point.

professore · 02-05-2018 05:20PM

The question is - do we need a review of ALL screening programmes - or just ones that affect women? Because that's what the posters the OP pointed out are suggesting.

I'm a 47 year old male and have never had any screening or vaccination programmes aimed at me (other than the MMR) unlike my wife whose had regular cervical cancer screening paid for by the State. If I want anything I have to pay for it myself - which I do.

I'm not whinging or complaining about it just stating facts. I actually think a free 5 year health screening of everyone over a certain age for common diseases would save a lot of lives, male and female. For example high blood pressure can be fatal. Lots of men in particular never visit the doctor.

Men’s health treated worse by the state than women - they simply ignore it.

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