Men’s health treated worse by the state than women - they simply ignore it.

RobertKK · 02-05-2018 11:53AM #1

What is it with certain women using the Cervical check scandal to make out it is the fault of men?
Men die younger than women.
Men have less cancer screening services than women.
Men are worse at looking after their health.
Yet I see certain women using the current scandal to make out all women are all health victims of men.

https://twitter.com/independent_ie/status/991570503340052480?s=21

https://twitter.com/colettebrowne/status/991409265935028227?s=21

https://twitter.com/clairebyrnelive/status/991071798585311232?s=21

Maybe no testicular scandal as there is no screening program for testicular cancer...about 170 men are diagnosed with it every year and 1 in 20 dies. Maybe a screening program would save those lives.
There is no state sanctioned prostate cancer screening program despite on average 3,400 men being diagnosed with prostate cancer in Ireland every year. The stats are 1 in 7 men will get it. About 9% of men die from it.

https://twitter.com/lymanbiopharma/status/989918431045607424?s=21
Which mean boys should have been always getting the HPV vaccine when girls were getting it.

It is an absolute scandal what happened with Cervical Check. It shouldn’t have happened, but to turn it into a women v men thing as if men have better services and live longer is just very wrong.

Men and women are in this together and women who try and turn it into a gender thing are doing a disservice to both women and men. There are some women who aren’t victims of the health service but feel they have to see themselves as victims of the health system rather than see the bigger picture that men aren’t exactly getting a great deal from the health service either.
Men are most likely dying from a lack of dedicated screening programs for male specific cancers but since there are no screening programs it means no one has to take responsibility and given hundreds of men die from male specific cancer every year, the case for dedicated screening programs are there.

Let’s be clear, more needs to be done for both sexes when it comes to health but healthy women who are using cases like Vicky Phelan to play the victim card, fail to see the bigger picture and need to lose the victim complex.
Vicky Phelan is out telling women to continue to get screened and she will save lives. She is not playing the victim but using her most horrific situation for good and men and women should be proud of her for standing tall and bringing this scandal to light. It is not an excuse for others to use her and the situation of other women who died or have cancer to have a go at men.

ancapailldorcha · 02-05-2018 11:59AM

I can't watch those videos at the moment but I think women have been treated appalling in terms of having autonomy of their bodies and reproductive health by the Irish state.

Regarding men, it is not within the remit of modern feminism to push for equality for men. Classical feminism, yes. The modern, third wave incarnation not so much. If men are so bothered then they need to get off their asses and actually do something about it instead of whining and expecting other people to fix things for them. Women have had to lobby for rights for many decades. Men who are, rightly concerned with Men's Health issues need to stop feeding the Twatter outrage machine and actually do something like contact their TD/councillor, set up a local project via Meetup or something or support a good cause either financially or with their time.

thomasdylan · 02-05-2018 12:01PM

I don't think any country has a prostate cancer screening service. There's no evidence it can reduce mortality and no reliable screening tool.

Testicular cancer screening just wouldn't work because of the numbers involved. And again there's no suitable screening test.

Boys should definitely be getting the HPV vaccine though.

amcalester · 02-05-2018 12:03PM

thomasdylan wrote: »

Testicular cancer screening just wouldn't work because of the numbers involved.

2?

Mackerel and Avocado Sandwich · 02-05-2018 12:03PM

I think part of the problem is men themselves simply ignore problems until it's too late

markodaly · 02-05-2018 12:11PM

This scandal is a problem alright yet when feminists spin it this way, it does more harm than good in the long run.
What is it with every perceived slight, real or not, against women and the hysteria that then surrounds it for a few days after.

I thought we were over it for a bit after the Ulster rape trial, but like a bus another one comes along.

The strong women I know and look up to have no time for these idiots.

facehugger99 · 02-05-2018 12:12PM

RobertKK wrote: »

It is an absolute scandal what happened with Cervical Check. It shouldn’t have happened, but to turn it into a women v men thing as if men have better services and live longer is just very wrong.

Irony ahoy.

Deise Vu · 02-05-2018 12:16PM

thomasdylan wrote: »

I don't think any country has a prostate cancer screening service. There's no evidence it can reduce mortality and no reliable screening tool.

Testicular cancer screening just wouldn't work because of the numbers involved. And again there's no suitable screening test.

Boys should definitely be getting the HPV vaccine though.

There is a PSA test for prostate cancer. It is not 100% reliable but, whisper it, the cervical smear test isn't either nor was it ever intended to be.

Indications of testicular cancer can be detected with a simple observation and testes 'exam' (yep feeling the little chaps).

Glad you understand the HPV vaccine can also be given to boys but isn't.

Now everybody can go back to the outrage about how the cervical smear test isn't perfect, nor the breast screen check nor the administration of the HPV vaccine and be horrified that none of the Men's Health screening tests are failing because....errr... there aren't any.

Would it be going too far also to point out that the the head of the cervical screening service who resigned at the weekend was a woman or that, of all the services in the country outside of primary school teaching, woman are probably most represented in the health service?

Graces7 · 02-05-2018 12:22PM

Is this not a GP responsibility issue? Notices up, info sent out?

And most of all, personal responsibilty? For men to aske for checks and tests themselves. Are we too reliant on HSE for these things?

Also how many men would for example, use a service like the mobile breast screening units we see in carparks?

Keyzer · 02-05-2018 12:22PM

Before I comment I'd like to make the point that the current cervical/smear fiasco is a disgrace and my heart goes out to those women and their loved ones who have and will lose their lives because of this.

Nevertheless, this is the same blinkered nonsense bandied about by the feminist brigade. Spend five minutes educating yourself on the statistics around male health vs female health and it might change minds.

Male suicide rates are four times higher than that of women in this country
Each year over 3,400 men are diagnosed with prostate cancer in Ireland. This means that one in eight men will be diagnosed with prostate cancer during their lifetime
We have 2800 new cases of breast cancer diagnosed each year. 1 in 9 women will develop breast cancer in the course of their lifetime.

The bottom line is the healthcare system in this country has, is and will continue to fail everyone regardless of your race, colour, creed or gender...

suicide_circus · 02-05-2018 12:24PM

Men are more disposable. You don't need that many of us.

A man with many wives can produce huge amounts of offspring, almost limitless.

A woman with many husbands can only produce a fairly limited amount.

Keyzer · 02-05-2018 12:28PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Men are more disposable. You don't need that many of us.

A man with many wives can produce huge amounts of offspring, almost limitless.

A woman with many husbands can only produce a fairly limited amount.

Incredible insight...

CruelCoin · 02-05-2018 12:32PM

thomasdylan wrote: »

I don't think any country has a prostate cancer screening service. There's no evidence it can reduce mortality and no reliable screening tool.

Even your barnyard doctors know what a prostate exam is.....

thomasdylan wrote: »

Testicular cancer screening just wouldn't work because of the numbers involved.

Are there more men than women? Is this China now?

suicide_circus · 02-05-2018 12:33PM

Keyzer wrote: »

Incredible insight...

Thanks. This is the reason for attitudes to men's health - biological disposability. Same reason men were sent to war. Women and children first.

thomasdylan · 02-05-2018 12:36PM

Deise Vu wrote: »

There is a PSA test for prostate cancer. It is not 100% reliable but, whisper it, the cervical smear test isn't either nor was it ever intended to be.

Indications of testicular cancer can be detected with a simple observation and testes 'exam' (yep feeling the little chaps).

Glad you understand the HPV vaccine can also be given to boys but isn't.

Now everybody can go back to the outrage about how the cervical smear test isn't perfect, nor the breast screen check nor the administration of the HPV vaccine and be horrified that none of the Men's Health screening tests are failing because....errr... there aren't any.

Do you know what a screening test is? A screening test is a test used to identify a disease in someone without signs and symptoms. Self exam for testicular lumps isn't a screening test, ultrasounding everyone over the age of 15 every few years would be.

On PSA, current guidelines are that it shouldn't be used as a routine screening test, i.e. a test in asymptomatic people. Lots of false positives and there is a not-insignificant complication rate from subsequent investigations.

thomasdylan · 02-05-2018 12:41PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

Even your barnyard doctors know what a prostate exam is.....

Are there more men than women? Is this China now?

A prostate exam in a symptomatic patient is not the same as doing a routine prostate exam on every male over the age of 50 every few years.

smokingman · 02-05-2018 12:49PM

Jesus Robert, what is it with you and women?!
People have died due to this screw up and you want to rally against feminists?
You're not one of that crowd that are putting posters outside of maternity hospitals lately are ya?

Outlaw Pete · 02-05-2018 12:56PM

My father's lung cancer was misdiagnosed as a chest infection in Beaumont. Two chest xrays and he was told his persistent cough was nothing to worry about. Two weeks later he was told he had stage 4 cancer and had only six month to live. He was gone in two. Never smoked a day in his life.

I think missed cancer diagnosises is more common than people think. Can be hard to prove and then almost imposible to get the media to report on it when it only involves one case. A cluster and they might report.

It's good to see these current missed cases getting the press they are but I agree with the OP, it's disgraceful to turn this into some 'society doesn't care about women's health' nonsense as quite clearly they do.

I think a large part of why we hear more about such scandals when it affects women is because of how organised women's rights advocacy groups are. They simple just make damn sure noise is made, and with these issues, they are right to.

If the scandal was about a cancer which affected men we wouldn't see this kind of media coverage though but I don't think that's because society doesn't care as much necessarily, it's just that we don't have advocacy groups anywhere near as powerful.

Recall the following scandal last year and it didn't get anything like this recent one currently is:

http://www.thejournal.ie/wexford-missed-cancers-3195122-Jan2017/

Personally I think we need organisations that represent both genders on such issues. Health care is not something which should require a gender rights group advocating for it. It's far too important for that.

Deise Vu · 02-05-2018 12:57PM

thomasdylan wrote: »

Do you know what a screening test is? A screening test is a test used to identify a disease in someone without signs and symptoms. Self exam for testicular lumps isn't a screening test, ultrasounding everyone over the age of 15 every few years would be.

On PSA, current guidelines are that it shouldn't be used as a routine screening test, i.e. a test in asymptomatic people. Lots of false positives and there is a not-insignificant complication rate from subsequent investigations.

I didn't say self-exam, I had it done by a Doctor as part of a job medical once. Obviously not perfect but it would pick up many previously undetected cancers. Likewise, I also specifically pointed out the PSA is not perfect, just like the smear test isn't. The point I am making is that there are tests for male-only cancers but it is left to individuals to get them done. Yet we are told women are treated badly by the health service because the massive investment in screening for women-only cancers isn't perfect.

Pherekydes · 02-05-2018 12:58PM

Hands up who thought that such a thread might be started by someone from the religious right?

seamus · 02-05-2018 01:04PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If men are so bothered then they need to get off their asses and actually do something about it instead of whining and expecting other people to fix things for them.

This.

The "what about men" brigade is ALWAYS someone complaining about women fighting for women's rights and not also fighting for men's rights.

I've never once seen them ask why men aren't fighting for men's rights. Not once.

While one could argue that the "men's rights" movement is demonised, that's because in it's modern form it consists almost exclusively of men protesting against women's rights. Not men fighting for men's rights.

markodaly · 02-05-2018 01:10PM

seamus wrote: »

While one could argue that the "men's rights" movement is demonised, that's because in it's modern form it consists almost exclusively of men protesting against women's rights. Not men fighting for men's rights.

That is simply not true.

Outlaw Pete · 02-05-2018 01:51PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If men are so bothered then they need to get off their asses and actually do something about it instead of whining and expecting other people to fix things for them. Women have had to lobby for rights for many decades.

Absolutely shocking comment to make and as moderator of tGC it makes it even worse. I appreciate you are not posting here in that capacity but nevertheless, I would expect you to be aware of the issues men face in society more than the average user.

You suggest men need to "get off their asses and actually do something about it instead of whining and expecting other people to fix things for them" and then cite that women have had to fight for what have got, but that just shows a major ignorance on your part when it comes to how difficult it actually is for men to get listened to by those who make decisions in our society.

You can have all the men's rights advocacy groups you like, lobbying government night noon and morning, but it won't make a hill of beans of a difference if those in Government aren't listening. The simple fact is that there is no political will to act of behalf of men to any great degree given that there won't be any consequences for them should they not meet the wishes of men. Holy war would ensue though if women were not having their societal needs met, especially so when it comes to their health.

There is a reason that men in the UK dressed up as superhereos and climbed buildings in order to bring some attention on their issues within the family courts. They didn't just do it for the laugh. They did it because they were being ignored.

cantdecide · 02-05-2018 01:52PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If men are so bothered then they need to get off their asses and actually do something about it instead of whining

The squeaky wheel gets the oil? I think this is a very backward and unenlightened attitude to health, IMO. We [collectively] could surely do better than this.

Women have had a very long road to come for equality but there is one incidental yet major benefit - over many multiples of generations the lobby for their special interests are very well established, publicised and generally supported.

Men's interest issues are generally sneered at and dismissed to a much greater extent. Men have issues but generally put themselves last more often. This contributes to why our health suffers more in the first place. You just have to look at the ridicule to Fathers4Justice received in order to gauge the public reaction to mens issues.

Health should not be reduced to mens issues v womens issues. They're health issues.

ancapailldorcha · 02-05-2018 02:43PM

seamus wrote: »

This.

The "what about men" brigade is ALWAYS someone complaining about women fighting for women's rights and not also fighting for men's rights.

I've never once seen them ask why men aren't fighting for men's rights. Not once.

While one could argue that the "men's rights" movement is demonised, that's because in it's modern form it consists almost exclusively of men protesting against women's rights. Not men fighting for men's rights.

Yep. I remember being part of a UK Men's Rights Facebook page. Started off as an awareness thing which eventually turned into a whingefest. However, throughout my membership the sole female member documented her quest to establish a men's shed in her town. Not once was she offered assistance or gratitude. The last straw came when the members of this page got triggered by an episode of the BBC's Sherlock.

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Absolutely shocking comment to make and as moderator of tGC it makes it even worse. I appreciate you are not posting here in that capacity but nevertheless, I would expect you to be aware of the issues men face in society more than the average user.

I'm well aware of issues men face, thank you very much. Modding a forum doesn't compel me to swallow the victimhood narrative.

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

You suggest men need to "get off their asses and actually do something about it instead of whining and expecting other people to fix things for them" and then cite that women have had to fight for what have got, but that just shows a major ignorance on your part when it comes to how difficult it actually is for men to get listened to by those who make decisions in our society.

You neglect to mention that most of these people are themselves men.

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

You can have all the men's rights advocacy groups you like, lobbying government night noon and morning, but it won't make a hill of beans of a difference if those in Government aren't listening. The simple fact is that there is no political will to act of behalf of men to any great degree given that there won't be any consequences for them should they not meet the wishes of men. Holy war would ensue though if women were not having their societal needs met, especially so when it comes to their health.

When so many guys buy into nonsense peddled by professional trolls instead of actually taking ownership of their situation and trying to fix it then it's no surprise that these issues still persist. It's hard to listen to men when they don't seem too bothered with helping themselves.

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

There is a reason that men in the UK dressed up as superhereos and climbed buildings in order to bring some attention on their issues within the family courts. They didn't just do it for the laugh. They did it because they were being ignored.

A perfect example of what I was advocating above.

cantdecide · 02-05-2018 02:46PM

I'm surprised at your attitude, ACD.

You're confusing a deficit of compassion with a victim narrative, ACD. Men don't have the lobby for this. Fact.

Muahahaha · 02-05-2018 02:50PM

Is there any topic that cannot be spun into a gender politics debate? After all the scandal of cervical cancer the OP has still managed to do exactly that. It is getting really tiresome at this stage.

Wesser · 02-05-2018 02:55PM

There is no national screening test for PSA because it is not a good screening tool.
In essence there is no evidence that screening men with psa decreases their chance of dying from prostate cancer.

If you take 2000 men. No prostate cancer symptoms. Split them into 2 groups. Offer 1000 of them a psa . The other 1000 no psa. The chances of dying of prostate cancer in group 1 is the same as chances of dying of cancer in group 2.

Has been discussed by consultant urologists at international conferences. Essentially no evidence that it makes any difference. No country that I am aware of that offers a state sponsored psa screening programme ( that I am aware of.... I stand to be corrected ) . Nothing to do with gender or politics. Just science.

NB. Note difference between being screened, and being tested.

Wesser · 02-05-2018 02:59PM

Google 'Wilson's criteria for screening tests'

Outlaw Pete · 02-05-2018 03:00PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm well aware of issues men face, thank you very much. Modding a forum doesn't compel me to swallow the victimhood narrative.

You said that men needed to get off their asses and do something about it rather than whinging, which is suggesting that is all men do. You're confusing lack of political will with lack of action from men. There is lots of the latter. Fcuk all of the former.

You neglect to mention that most of these people are themselves men.

Did I suggest there mostly women or something? No. It's a given that most of these positions in government are held by men. Why would I state the obvious? Actually, it makes a bit of a mockery of the whole patriarchy nonsense that male dominated government bodies are more inclined to act on behalf of the demands of women's lobby groups than male ones.

When so many guys buy into nonsense peddled by professional trolls instead of actually taking ownership of their situation and trying to fix it then it's no surprise that these issues still persist. It's hard to listen to men when they don't seem too bothered with helping themselves.

Again with this "not bothering" bullshit. There are tons of men's groups and organizations constantly trying to get heard. What you're suggesting simply isn't true.

A perfect example of what I was advocating above.

No, a prefect example of what you suggested wasn't happening above.

_Dara_ · 02-05-2018 03:11PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

My father's lung cancer was misdiagnosed as a chest infection in Beaumont. Two chest xrays and he was told his persistent cough was nothing to worry about. Two weeks later he was told he had stage 4 cancer and had only six month to live. He was gone in two. Never smoked a day in his life.

I think missed cancer diagnosises is more common than people think. Can be hard to prove and then almost imposible to get the media to report on it when it only involves one case. A cluster and they might report.

It's good to see these current missed cases getting the press they are but I agree with the OP, it's disgraceful to turn this into some 'society doesn't care about women's health' nonsense as quite clearly they do.

And yet, my breast cancer diagnosis was made 2.5 years too late, at stage 4, when it was terminal. Delayed diagnoses happens to both genders.

With all the breast cancer screening there is, due to my age I was continually fobbed off. I had signs that were strongly indicative of, firstly, early stage cancer, and latterly secondary cancer. Completely ignored by a string of doctors until I finally got a CT to see if I had a lung problem which then showed up everything.

So when people complain about how well breast cancer patients are treated, my blood boils a little bit. And believe me, nobody is interested in hearing from breast cancer patients who are going to die from the disease. Not pink and fluffy and feel-good enough.

Men’s health treated worse by the state than women - they simply ignore it.

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