8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

gctest50 · 30-04-2018 11:35PM

indy_man wrote: »

Stopping a heart is killing, lets face up to the fact. That is not depravity just fact.

so, when they put this this into storage they were ?

Up to about 17 weeks the cardiac cells are just beating away spontaneously

AllForIt · 30-04-2018 11:37PM

I think I'm going to abstain. Reason is some of the arguments I've heard on the this thread have been absolutely abysmal on both sides. I would have though that for something so fundamental I would have heard some augments that were spot on, but I haven't.

I don't think I can vote for something that I don't feel passionate about and I don't feel passionate about this issue.

Then again, I'm a man, I'm gay, and the issue doesn't affect me in my own personal life. So I've decided that those of you who are personally affected by the issue should make the decision, not me.

I hope that my abstaining is not taken as anything other than abstaining.

BabysCoffee · 30-04-2018 11:39PM

kenmc wrote: »

screamer wrote: »

Ah I love the diggers on boards. Anyways to answer your question I took a good look at what is being proposed and as I wrote a few posts ago, if it were to legislate for the minority cases fatal fetal abnormalities etc then yes I would support that. But I just cannot in good conscience vote to allow healthy babies ... I can't vote yes to allow healthy babies just be killed off. I can't. Now we can fight and argue till the cows come home but it won't change my feelings nor my vote. No more than I can change yours and I don't want to. When I vote my conscience will be clear as will my decision.

But you're OK voting no in order to allow "healthy babies" be killed in England, and their ashes couriered back to their parents who can't afford to travel back for the funeral? Or are you only OK voting no so that women have to become criminals by ordering pills online, taking them in secret and hoping that the pain they experience is normal, and not a massive uterine rupture?

Sick fcuk.

One of the saddest things is hearing of parents bringing coffins home on the ferry or having remains couriered to their home. How people voting No don't have compassion for these parents beggars belief. Shame on them.

I won't stand by. I am voting Yes, so no mother has to place a coffin in a hold of an air plane from England to Ireland.

Wrongway1985 · 30-04-2018 11:39PM

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

The 2013 act passed by the previous government already allows for abortion to take place when the life of the mother is under threat.

Yet the findings were there since the X case, it took over 20 years to be put into law and only so due to the public outcry from the coverage of Savita H and essentially her death.

baylah17 · 30-04-2018 11:39PM

AllForIt wrote: »

I think I'm going to abstain. Reason is some of the arguments I've heard on the this thread have been absolutely abysmal on both sides. I would have though that for something so fundamental I would have heard some augments that were spot on, but I haven't.

I don't think I can vote for something that I don't feel passionate about and I don't feel passionate about this issue.

Then again, I'm a man, I'm gay, and the issue doesn't affect me in my own personal life. So I've decided that those of you who are personally affected by the issue should make the decision, not me.

I hope that my abstaining is not taken as anything other than abstaining.

I'm male and straight
Marriage inequality didn't directlly affect me.
I still did the right thing though because I can beyond my own selfish self interest.

The Legend Of Kira · 30-04-2018 11:47PM

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

The 2013 act passed by the previous government already allows for abortion to take place when the life of the mother is under threat.

When the mother is actively dying. It does not account for extreme pain or suffering. It does not account for the threat of death. It does not account for anything except for when the mother is on the countdown towards death, and even then, it's a bit wishy washy and open to interpretation.

One Obstetrician has recently argued the opposite.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/obstetricians-have-full-freedom-to-save-mothers-life-says-doctor-36791944.html

Ave Sodalis · 30-04-2018 11:54PM

The Legend Of Kira wrote:

One Obstetrician has recently argued the opposite.

So one claims he hasn't been affected by the 8th and so that's going to be taken as the over riding opinion, despite the Institute of O&G saying it does and the Master of the National Maternity Hospital saying it does?

dudara · 30-04-2018 11:58PM

AllForIt wrote: »

I think I'm going to abstain. Reason is some of the arguments I've heard on the this thread have been absolutely abysmal on both sides. I would have though that for something so fundamental I would have heard some augments that were spot on, but I haven't.

I don't think I can vote for something that I don't feel passionate about and I don't feel passionate about this issue.

Then again, I'm a man, I'm gay, and the issue doesn't affect me in my own personal life. So I've decided that those of you who are personally affected by the issue should make the decision, not me.

I hope that my abstaining is not taken as anything other than abstaining.

I’m 100% straight. I voted for the SSM referendum, even though it will never ever affect me, because I believed it was the right thing to do.

We are all citizens, we all have a vote and using our vote is our civic duty, no matter which way you vote.

gctest50 · 01-05-2018 12:01AM

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

One Obstetrician has recently argued the opposite.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/obstetricians-have-full-freedom-to-save-mothers-life-says-doctor-36791944.html

It is alleged that when the mother learned her unborn child was disabled, psychiatrist Professor Patricia Casey initially advised that the woman's options included going to England for a termination.

However, it is claimed that she later told the expectant mother it would bother the woman for the rest of her life if she did so.

She agreed she was being told Epilim represented a heightened risk of neural tube defects but said both Prof Casey and Dr Mary Holohan, told her taking folic acid would "negate" the risk from Epilim. She trusted them.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/birth-disability-case-settled-with-500-000-payout-1.619926

I think i'd be trusting Dr. Murphy here a bit quicker

http://www.thejournal.ie/ashamed-to-be-a-doctor-repeal-the-eighth-abortion-campaign-3951452-Apr2018/

“I HAVE BEEN ashamed to be a doctor practicing in this country.”

Consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist in the Coombe Women’s and Infant University Hospital and Tallaght Hospital, Dr Cliona Murphy says the Eighth “is punitive to women”, particularly poorer ones.

Ave Sodalis · 01-05-2018 12:02AM

AllForIt wrote:

Then again, I'm a man, I'm gay, and the issue doesn't affect me in my own personal life. So I've decided that those of you who are personally affected by the issue should make the decision, not me.

You are completely entitled to abstain but please remember that if people who didn't mind much either way abstained from the marriage ref, then the results would be very different. I am a straight female. The marriage referendum would not have affected me personally in any way, but it would have affected people I care about and so I was actively involved.

An abstain from this vote unfortunately will likely mean a win for the No side, as you are essentially saying you want nothing to change. I know this may not be your intention.

Please also note that you are now on the third thread, meaning there are over twenty thousand posts. Most of the people voting for repeal have been with the thread from the start and have dealt with a lot of trolls, re-regs and bots, not to mention answering the same questions over and over, and dealing with some huge lies and misrepresentations from the No side.

Again, you are fully entitled to abstain. That is your right, but I would ask you to reconsider if you are any way Yes inclined.

Sofiztikated · 01-05-2018 12:16AM

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

The 2013 act passed by the previous government already allows for abortion to take place when the life of the mother is under threat.

You know, if "Didn't Die" is your base standard for a women after pregnancy, that kinda reflects awfully on the Love Both mantra.

AllForIt · 01-05-2018 12:20AM

baylah17 wrote: »

I'm male and straight
Marriage inequality didn't directlly affect me.
I still did the right thing though because I can beyond my own selfish self interest.

Hi Baylah, and I thank you for you yes vote. Please, I did not say I'm abstaining because it has noting to do with me, I said that because I'm conflicted about the issue that I though it would be better if ppl who are directly more passionate about the issue should make the decision. I don't think that's a horrible position to take.

dudara wrote: »

I’m 100% straight. I voted for the SSM referendum, even though it will never ever affect me, because I believed it was the right thing to do.

We are all citizens, we all have a vote and using our vote is our civic duty, no matter which way you vote.

Again, see my reply above. I would argue thought that a non-vote as long as it's considered, is a vote in itself.

AllForIt · 01-05-2018 12:41AM

dudara wrote: »

I’m 100% straight. I voted for the SSM referendum, even though it will never ever affect me, because I believed it was the right thing to do.

We are all citizens, we all have a vote and using our vote is our civic duty, no matter which way you vote.

Wow 100% straight, not 95%. I'm impressed.

Mandatory voting is not a thing yet. I think it should be in general elections but not referendums.

Wrongway1985 · 01-05-2018 12:45AM

AllForIt wrote: »

Again, see my reply above. I would argue thought that a non-vote as long as it's considered, is a vote in itself.

While I get people being conflicted. A non vote is exactly that....not a vote there can be no argument there.

AllForIt · 01-05-2018 01:20AM

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

While I get people being conflicted. A non vote is exactly that....not a vote there can be no argument there.

No, my non vote is considered, leave it up to ppl who are more passionate about the issue than I am. A non vote does not imply I want to keep the status quo.

kenmc · 01-05-2018 06:17AM

AllForIt wrote: »

No, my non vote is considered, leave it up to ppl who are more passionate about the issue than I am. A non vote does not imply I want to keep the status quo.

Not voting means you're happy to leave things as they are.

erica74 · 01-05-2018 06:52AM

I wish boards had more emojis because there are posts on this thread, that only the facial expressions of a little yellow person can sum up for me.

Please vote, if you can, please make it your business to understand what you are voting about, please repeal the 8th.

volchitsa · 01-05-2018 07:07AM

AllForIt wrote: »

baylah17 wrote: »

I'm male and straight
Marriage inequality didn't directlly affect me.
I still did the right thing though because I can beyond my own selfish self interest.

Hi Baylah, and I thank you for you yes vote. Please, I did not say I'm abstaining because it has noting to do with me, I said that because I'm conflicted about the issue that I though it would be better if ppl who are directly more passionate about the issue should make the decision. I don't think that's a horrible position to take.

dudara wrote: »

I’m 100% straight. I voted for the SSM referendum, even though it will never ever affect me, because I believed it was the right thing to do.

We are all citizens, we all have a vote and using our vote is our civic duty, no matter which way you vote.

Again, see my reply above. I would argue thought that a non-vote as long as it's considered, is a vote in itself.

In a referendum though a non-vote is a vote for the status quo.

01-05-2018 07:14AM

AllForIt wrote: »

I think I'm going to abstain. Reason is some of the arguments I've heard on the this thread have been absolutely abysmal on both sides. I would have though that for something so fundamental I would have heard some augments that were spot on, but I haven't.

I don't think I can vote for something that I don't feel passionate about and I don't feel passionate about this issue.

Then again, I'm a man, I'm gay, and the issue doesn't affect me in my own personal life. So I've decided that those of you who are personally affected by the issue should make the decision, not me.

I hope that my abstaining is not taken as anything other than abstaining.

You are of course quite entitled to abstain, I am a straight female & I voted yes to ssm.
Just because I think it's important that everyone in society be treated equally.
I would like, as a woman, that my medical treatment has MY best interests first & that I can have a say in my own treatment. Like everyone else.

January · 01-05-2018 07:15AM

AllForIt wrote: »

I think I'm going to abstain. Reason is some of the arguments I've heard on the this thread have been absolutely abysmal on both sides. I would have though that for something so fundamental I would have heard some augments that were spot on, but I haven't.

I don't think I can vote for something that I don't feel passionate about and I don't feel passionate about this issue.

Then again, I'm a man, I'm gay, and the issue doesn't affect me in my own personal life. So I've decided that those of you who are personally affected by the issue should make the decision, not me.

I hope that my abstaining is not taken as anything other than abstaining.

Do you have sisters? Female cousins/aunts/friends/insert female relations here?

Not voting means that you believe that the current system is OK going forward.

RDM_83 again · 01-05-2018 07:17AM

kenmc wrote: »

Not voting means you're happy to leave things as they are.

Doesn't not voting mean your simply not happy with either option?
There is a long history of people submitting spoiled ballots for example.
Here is someone who got jailed relating to it

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Langer

Edit: all the people saying not voting is the same as voting no, do you think there is an argument that non voters should be added to the no side after all that's apparently there intent?

sabat · 01-05-2018 07:19AM

Some gay people are against abortion because they feel that if a pre-natal test for homosexuality is ever invented there will probably be foetuses terminated on those grounds.

NuMarvel · 01-05-2018 07:20AM

AllForIt wrote: »

I think I'm going to abstain. Reason is some of the arguments I've heard on the this thread have been absolutely abysmal on both sides. I would have though that for something so fundamental I would have heard some augments that were spot on, but I haven't.

I don't think I can vote for something that I don't feel passionate about and I don't feel passionate about this issue.

Then again, I'm a man, I'm gay, and the issue doesn't affect me in my own personal life. So I've decided that those of you who are personally affected by the issue should make the decision, not me.

I hope that my abstaining is not taken as anything other than abstaining.

I'm a gay man too, and I'm voting Yes. Because we know what it's like to have the State interfere in our fundamental rights. We know what it's like to be regarded as criminals even if we'll never actually go to jail. The 8th is a relic of that kind of Ireland; in the same year the 8th was passed, David Norris lost his Supreme Court challenge and the killers of Declan Flynn walked free. That's the kind of Ireland that needs to be left in the past.

And like I said to straight people during the marriage equality referendum, it may not affect you directly, but it does affect someone you know. A sister, a niece, an aunt, friend, co-worker; someone you know will need an abortion and the decision you make will determine the kind of care and treatment they receive when they make that decision.

The women of Ireland supported us three years when we needed them, now it's our turn and I'm not going to let them down.

Dressing gown · 01-05-2018 07:24AM

A lot of the arguments I’ve read are hypothetical. None of us really know what we will do in a crisis unless we are actually in it and living it. A living breathing human being with language and emotions and family is not the same as an immature baby/fetus whatever you want to call it. By placing both on equal footing, you are happy to risk the life of that living breathing human being, or if not the life, you willingly permit the endangerment of their life or allow them to experience extreme pain. That is on you if you vote no. I myself don’t think I could have an abortion. But, having experienced and witnessed a love one experience extreme pain I would never vote for that. I would never put my mother through that. We all love babies we are hardwired to, this vote does not mean you are not a compassionate human being. Voting yes is the compassionate option.

gmisk · 01-05-2018 07:40AM

AllForIt wrote: »

I think I'm going to abstain. Reason is some of the arguments I've heard on the this thread have been absolutely abysmal on both sides. I would have though that for something so fundamental I would have heard some augments that were spot on, but I haven't.

I don't think I can vote for something that I don't feel passionate about and I don't feel passionate about this issue.

Then again, I'm a man, I'm gay, and the issue doesn't affect me in my own personal life. So I've decided that those of you who are personally affected by the issue should make the decision, not me.

I hope that my abstaining is not taken as anything other than abstaining.

I'm a gay man myself.
But I would urge you to read in her shoes on Facebook. It shows you how this amendment has effected real women and their partners in a horrendous way.
I do however have a niece so had to think of young women like her and how this might effect her, and I couldn't with good conscience abstain in this referendum. People like yourself could well decide things as well.

Edit-numarvel said things a lot more eloquently than I could

Hannibal_Smith · 01-05-2018 07:44AM

AllForIt wrote: »

I think I'm going to abstain. Reason is some of the arguments I've heard on the this thread have been absolutely abysmal on both sides. I would have though that for something so fundamental I would have heard some augments that were spot on, but I haven't.

I don't think I can vote for something that I don't feel passionate about and I don't feel passionate about this issue.

Then again, I'm a man, I'm gay, and the issue doesn't affect me in my own personal life. So I've decided that those of you who are personally affected by the issue should make the decision, not me.

I hope that my abstaining is not taken as anything other than abstaining.

Same sex marriage didn't affect me at all, but I voted for it because inequality sucks.

It's not up to either side here to convince you. There is a referendum coming up which effects citizens of this country. You could research the issue and decide what way you wpuld like the constitution to continue after the referendum.

Annasopra · 01-05-2018 07:47AM

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

One Obstetrician has recently argued the opposite.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/obstetricians-have-full-freedom-to-save-mothers-life-says-doctor-36791944.html

Wow. Only one? Her professional body doesnt agree.

kenmc · 01-05-2018 07:47AM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Doesn't not voting mean your simply not happy with either option?
There is a long history of people submitting spoiled ballots for example.
Here is someone who got jailed relating to it

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Langer

Edit: all the people saying not voting is the same as voting no, do you think there is an argument that non voters should be added to the no side after all that's apparently there intent?

Well it's a yes/no question, what other option do you want?
An election is different, you're supposed to choose from one of a list of ppl, but that's only a subset of the possible choices, hence "none of the above"

Not voting is the same as saying leave things as they are. The only way to ensure things don't remain as they are is to vote yes

Annasopra · 01-05-2018 07:52AM

sabat wrote: »

Some gay people are against abortion because they feel that if a pre-natal test for homosexuality is ever invented there will probably be foetuses terminated on those grounds.

Meh. We're really only talking a minority of extremists such as Paddy Manning and a few of his friends. Most lgbt people I know are yes voters. Particularly trans people who are also deeply affected by the issue.

RDM_83 again · 01-05-2018 07:54AM

kenmc wrote: »

Well it's a yes/no question, what other option do you want?
An election is different, you're supposed to choose from one of a list of ppl, but that's only a subset of the possible choices, hence "none of the above"

Not voting is the same as saying leave things as they are. The only way to ensure things don't remain as they are is to vote yes

As I said in other thread, amending was one of the options that the citizen convention had a lot of support for yet it's not being given as an option, germany who's system I favour retained some level of Constitutional protection yet also has a system that allows for abortion after consultation

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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