The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Mrsmum · 29-04-2018 08:40PM

bubblypop wrote: »

What would you do if you were in a situation like savita? I will assume that your living children, & you living to take care of them, will always be more important right?

Imo doctors need to understand clearly what 'as far as practical' means. They should have a clear directive than in dangerous pregnancies the woman is the primary patient. That is just common sense because without the woman the baby dies too. No waiting for things to get worse.

PhoenixParker · 29-04-2018 08:41PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Imo doctors need to understand clearly what 'as far as practical' means. They should have a clear directive than in dangerous pregnancies the woman is the primary patient. That is just common sense because without the woman the baby dies too. No waiting for things to get worse.

That can't happen unless the 8th is repealed.

gandalf · 29-04-2018 08:46PM

The Frenchman wrote: »

The positive is it will keep abortion out of my country. I am anti abortion so therefore I will vote no.

No it won't and hasn't. All you are doing is driving it overseas and underground here without the benefit of proper medical attention and supervision. But hey as long as you are content in forcing your beliefs on others. Btw at 12 weeks it's not a child yet, just the potential of one.

Beasty · 29-04-2018 08:46PM

I've just deleted a number of posts by our regular re-reg troll together with various responses. Apologies if you went to much trouble responding to him, but his comments really do not deserve the oxygen of remaining up here

29-04-2018 08:47PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Imo doctors need to understand clearly what 'as far as practical' means. They should have a clear directive than in dangerous pregnancies the woman is the primary patient. That is just common sense because without the woman the baby dies too. No waiting for things to get worse.

And at the moment, the 8th amendment means a woman has to be dying before they can treat her.
Do you really want to be in a situation were you are actually dying before you receive treatment?
I definitely don't, & I don't even have any children. I can only imagine if I had kids I would be frantic

29-04-2018 08:51PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

the upcoming referendum is about removing the protection of this state for the unborn, rights which they currently have here and I will be voting no to that.

How do you feel about the 13 & 14 th amendments?
Do you feel we should repeal them?

29-04-2018 08:53PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Imo doctors need to understand clearly what 'as far as practical' means. They should have a clear directive than in dangerous pregnancies the woman is the primary patient. That is just common sense because without the woman the baby dies too. No waiting for things to get worse.

There's enough evidence out there that doctors are not able to correctly treat their patients because of the 8th.

In fact the recent medical cases causing are actually why we're getting the chance to vote on the issue. The fact that everyday women travel to the U.K. to obtain an abortion is just the normal way Ireland deals with its problems, ignore and export.

NuMarvel · 29-04-2018 08:53PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Imo doctors need to understand clearly what 'as far as practical' means. They should have a clear directive than in dangerous pregnancies the woman is the primary patient. That is just common sense because without the woman the baby dies too. No waiting for things to get worse.

I presume you mean "as far as practicable", and frankly no they don't. They need to be able to do their jobs and look after their patients without worrying about the legal definition of a broad and vague term in a poorly drafted constitutional provision.

It wasnt me123 · 29-04-2018 08:53PM

Lads can I make a suggestion. Can we just ignore anyone who is registered today or recently and anyone who says "I'm on the fence but need convincing" BS. Ye all go to such lengths to explain exactly about the amendment, the reasons people want choice etc and they just ignore it all and spew vitriol ignoring all the painful and heart wrenching stories that the 8th amendment has impacted on.

Just a suggestion, I read most of the posts and they drive me insane, which is their whole point - to annoy and antagonise.

I'm hoping if we don't interact with them at all, they will go away and annoy someone else.

Mrsmum · 29-04-2018 08:55PM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

That can't happen unless the 8th is repealed.

And what happens when the 8th is repealed? Healthy babies get aborted too. The same healthy babies that Savita and all the parents of ffa babies wouldn't dream of aborting if they were lucky enough to have them. It's kinda weird that their cases are being used to get other healthy babies aborted too.

swampgas · 29-04-2018 08:58PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

And what happens when the 8th is repealed? Healthy babies get aborted too. The same healthy babies that Savita and all the parents of ffa babies wouldn't dream of aborting if they were lucky enough to have them. It's kinda weird that their cases are being used to get other healthy babies aborted too.

They're being aborted anyway, but in England. Because Irish women need abortions, and they will get them any way they can. And our constitution guarantees that we won't try to stop anybody travelling for an abortion.

Keeping the 8th won't stop abortions happening but repealing it will make medical treatment of pregnant women safer, and it will give more power to consent or refuse medical treatment too.

What do you want your vote to do?

.

PhoenixParker · 29-04-2018 08:59PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

And what happens when the 8th is repealed? Healthy babies get aborted too. The same healthy babies that Savita and all the parents of ffa babies wouldn't dream of aborting if they were lucky enough to have them. It's kinda weird that their cases are being used to get other healthy babies aborted too.

Healthy babies are aborted now, both here via pills and in the UK via our constitutionally guaranteed right to travel.

The 8th does not prevent abortion, it doesn't even prevent abortion in Ireland.
What it prevents is safe healthcare non-traumatic healthcare for women.

There's been 35 years to make the 8th workable, it's not workable.
Trust the people who run our maternity services when they tell you that?

NuMarvel · 29-04-2018 09:00PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

You're not wrong at all. I'm every which way conflicted about this and you could catch me out in many other areas to do with it also but the upcoming referendum is about removing the protection of this state for the unborn, rights which they currently have here and I will be voting no to that.

The unborn will still have protections. Those protections will be set out in legislation, which is a far more appropriate place that can account for the nuances and complexities of the matter and where the rights of the woman can be properly provided for as well.

There is absolutely no valid reason for saying this should to be in the constitution. To borrow from someone else's post, it's madness to think we can properly address a complex matter in something the length of a tweet.

Sofiztikated · 29-04-2018 09:01PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

And what happens when the 8th is repealed? Healthy babies get aborted too. The same healthy babies that Savita and all the parents of ffa babies wouldn't dream of aborting if they were lucky enough to have them. It's kinda weird that their cases are being used to get other healthy babies aborted too.

I'd love to have a miracle pregnancy with my wife.

But my desire for a child shouldn't cloud my judgement..

gandalf · 29-04-2018 09:03PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

And what happens when the 8th is repealed? Healthy babies get aborted too. The same healthy babies that Savita and all the parents of ffa babies wouldn't dream of aborting if they were lucky enough to have them. It's kinda weird that their cases are being used to get other healthy babies aborted too.

They already are getting aborted. A no vote is not going to stop women seeking an abortion either illegally using drugs here or being forced to travel to another jurisdiction. By allowing what is proposed by the government if we repeal the eight we can deal with this issue at home and hopefully allow women the space to explore all options without stigma and labels.

I find abortion abhorrent and in an ideal world it wouldn't exist. However we don't live in an ideal world and the only person who should be allowed to decide on whether they continue with a pregnancy is the women who is pregnant, no one else!

Edward M · 29-04-2018 09:05PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Imo doctors need to understand clearly what 'as far as practical' means. They should have a clear directive than in dangerous pregnancies the woman is the primary patient. That is just common sense because without the woman the baby dies too. No waiting for things to get worse.

Therein lies the problem with the eighth, it gives the baby has an equal right to life, thereby it is just as important as the mother.
Babies have survived after their mothers have died during pregnancy, but imagine a scenario where a mother could be saved but it might mean harm or death to the baby, then that mother would most likely be let die and the baby saved under the eighth amendment.
Its just a gross amendment whether you agree with abortion or not.
I'm sure most people who don't want abortion don't want mothers health and lives to be put at risk either, so if properly explained it should be easy to make them see the sense of voting yes.
This vote isn't about abortion at all really, its about the health and lives of pregnant women, the battle for or against abortion should take place after the referendum, that's when the legislating will be done.
The no campaign is perpetrating lies about abortion to try to keep this gross amendment in place.
Nothing is agreed for after as yet, only suggestions, take your battles for and against abortion to our legislators, but let's make it safe for women who are pregnant and allow the medical care they need during pregnancy above all else, no woman should have to die or have her health compromised by legal default to allow a baby be born!
A yes vote is the only option for people who care for mothers as much as babies!

Mrsmum · 29-04-2018 09:06PM

Ok we can just go around and around. You know my views at this stage. I think it's wrong to abort healthy babies and so I'm not going to vote for it. I almost envy people in a way who are ok with it. If enough of people think that way then the 8th will be gone and so be it.

Goodnight and thank you for keeping it respectful.

Hammer Archer · 29-04-2018 09:26PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Ok we can just go around and around. You know my views at this stage. I think it's wrong to abort healthy babies and so I'm not going to vote for it. I almost envy people in a way who are ok with it. If enough of people think that way then the 8th will be gone and so be it.

Goodnight and thank you for keeping it respectful.

You have come out with some very contradictory views so I'm confused about your position. On one hand you say that you will vote against repealing the 8th because you disagree with aborting babies yet on the other hand you've said doctors should treat women as the primary patient in dangerous pregnancies which, as has been pointed out to you, cannot happen unless the 8th is repealed.

So it seems to me like you have come down on the side of preferring to not have pregnancies aborted and any women who die because of this (and this could include you) are collateral damage.

amdublin · 29-04-2018 09:35PM

Why do the No side think irish women are mad for having abortions, or will be mad for having them if they are available on Irish soil.

When you think of it that's simply not our style.

I won't call it crisis pregnancies. But how how many unplanned pregnancies do you know? How many of your friends have unplanned pregnancies?

Many many of my friends babies were unplanned. Different scenarios - I've a single mum friend, I've a very young mum when she had her baby friend, and ive two friends whose third babies were unplanned.
I also know tons of friends of friends who have unplanned babies.

Just one of my friends (very briefly) considered an abortion at the time. And it wasn't the young mum or the single mum.

The default for most Irish people is Not Terminate. It's have the baby.

Why do people think this will change??

For feks sake just trust women willya!!!

nice_guy80 · 29-04-2018 09:52PM

Incapable of debating the actual issues?

leave the thread...

Experience_day · 29-04-2018 10:25PM

amdublin wrote: »

Why do the No side think irish women are mad for having abortions, or will be mad for having them if they are available on Irish soil.

When you think of it that's simply not our style.

I won't call it crisis pregnancies. But how how many unplanned pregnancies do you know? How many of your friends have unplanned pregnancies?

Many many of my friends babies were unplanned. Different scenarios - I've a single mum friend, I've a very young mum when she had her baby friend, and ive two friends whose third babies were unplanned.
I also know tons of friends of friends who have unplanned babies.

Just one of my friends (very briefly) considered an abortion at the time. And it wasn't the young mum or the single mum.

The default for most Irish people is Not Terminate. It's have the baby.

Why do people think this will change??

For feks sake just trust women willya!!!

Some people probably equate it to having a gun. Makes suicide a whole lot easier if you can wander upstairs, and kiss a barrel.

I know someone who had an unplanned pregnancy when I lived abroad. There was a fair amount of pressure for various social reasons (mainly cultural..) and they made the choice to abort.

Right or wrong is irrelevant, but I don't think its a stretch to say availability will not change the decision making process..

Water John · 29-04-2018 10:28PM

So are we all now queuing up for a divorce?

PhoenixParker · 29-04-2018 10:30PM

Water John wrote: »

So are we all now queuing up for a divorce?

Obviously, how else can I get gay married?

29-04-2018 10:57PM

amdublin wrote: »

Why do the No side think irish women are mad for having abortions, or will be mad for having them if they are available on Irish soil.

When you think of it that's simply not our style.

I won't call it crisis pregnancies. But how how many unplanned pregnancies do you know? How many of your friends have unplanned pregnancies?

Many many of my friends babies were unplanned. Different scenarios - I've a single mum friend, I've a very young mum when she had her baby friend, and ive two friends whose third babies were unplanned.
I also know tons of friends of friends who have unplanned babies.

Just one of my friends (very briefly) considered an abortion at the time. And it wasn't the young mum or the single mum.

The default for most Irish people is Not Terminate. It's have the baby.

Why do people think this will change??

For feks sake just trust women willya!!!

Well maybe you have to look at the some of the people/organisations who make up the retain group to get an answer to that.

Take Justin Barrett for example, youth defence apparently now claim he never had a leadership role in the organisation, bit strange as hes on record as having been so, as are his and their links to neo nazi organisations

John McGuirk a f*ckwit since his student days, enough said.

The Sherlocks, well pretty much anti everything

David Quinn, Breda O'Brien just as bad, and religion hasn't ever had a positive view of women having power or choice.

Basically you've a group of people who believe in discrimination against people as a fundamental core of their being. People that twisted can't fathom other people not being as twisted as they are.

_Dara_ · 29-04-2018 11:50PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Ok we can just go around and around. You know my views at this stage. I think it's wrong to abort healthy babies and so I'm not going to vote for it. I almost envy people in a way who are ok with it. If enough of people think that way then the 8th will be gone and so be it.

Goodnight and thank you for keeping it respectful.

But okay with it happening as long as it’s on foreign soil? Unless you don’t think Irish women should keep their current right to travel to get an abortion?

HonestKevin · 30-04-2018 02:37AM

DubInMeath wrote: »

Basically you've a group of people who believe in discrimination against people as a fundamental core of their being.

With all due respect, the entire pro-repeal campaign is based on discrimination. The 2 main excuses for bringing in abortion is to deal with cases of rape and incest. This is blatant discrimination against children based solely on how they were conceived.

Its like 1950's Ireland all over again. Back then we judged children based on how they were conceived (if they were conceived out of wedlock). Now we are judging children again based on how they were conceived (if they were conceived through incest or rape).

We are again creating two classes of children - those who were conceived "the right way" and those who were conceived "the wrong way".

gctest50 · 30-04-2018 02:40AM

Welcome to boards.ie

Yer Da sells Avon · 30-04-2018 02:42AM

HonestKevin wrote: »

With all due respect, the entire pro-repeal campaign is based on discrimination. The 2 main excuses for bringing in abortion is to deal with cases of rape and incest. This is blatant discrimination against children based solely on how they were conceived.

Its like 1950's Ireland all over again. Back then we judged children based on how they were conceived (if they were conceived out of wedlock). Now we are judging children again based on how they were conceived (if they were conceived through incest or rape).

We are again creating two classes of children - those who were conceived "the right way" and those who were conceived "the wrong way".

Honestly, HonestKevin, your post is dishonest nonsense. Rape and incest are not the two main reasons for giving women the right to choose whether to remain pregnant or not.

_Dara_ · 30-04-2018 02:48AM

HonestKevin wrote: »

With all due respect, the entire pro-repeal campaign is based on discrimination. The 2 main excuses for bringing in abortion is to deal with cases of rape and incest. This is blatant discrimination against children based solely on how they were conceived.

Its like 1950's Ireland all over again. Back then we judged children based on how they were conceived (if they were conceived out of wedlock). Now we are judging children again based on how they were conceived (if they were conceived through incest or rape).

We are again creating two classes of children - those who were conceived "the right way" and those who were conceived "the wrong way".

With all due respect, very few repealers are that restrictive. For many, most actually, the definition of ‘crisis pregnancy’ is much broader than just cases of rape and incest. So not only is the “entire” campaign NOT based on that, it isn’t even close.

But you know that. :cool:

I expect the post I’m writing here won’t be here tomorrow so I won’t expend any more energy on it.

HonestKevin · 30-04-2018 02:53AM

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

Rape and incest are not the two main reasons for giving women the right to choose whether to remain pregnant or not.

We have been constantly told about rape and incest over the last 24 months as one of the main reasons why we need to bring in abortion. We have been told we need to deal with "these" children.

Children conceived as a result of incest weren't conceived in a "respectable" way. And we don't allow children in this country who were not conceived in a "respectable" way. Of course, all the people on the pro-repeal side were conceived in a "respectable" way. So they know best.

Nice to know that 2018 Ireland consists of children who were conceived in a "respectable" way and those conceived in an "unrespectable" way. What a progressive Ireland we live in.

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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