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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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Comments

  • #9482
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    You expect me to trust politicians in this country? We’ve already seen the likes of Leo varadkar, simon coveney, micheal martin flip flop on this issue and pander to what is populist thinking based on what their dozens of advisors have told them would enhance their image with a general election on the horizon.

    People's positions can change though.. That's the reality. Eg my mother would have originally voted no. But now will most likely vote yes because of women's experiences which she was oblivious to. Is my mother also a flip flopper?


  • #9483
    Poyndexter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 97 ✭✭Poyndexter


    reubenreuben wrote: »
    The referendum is about repealing the 8th amendment. See, you are a fool.

    Great argument. At least the other posters who oppose my views can be sensible in their arguments and not resort to name calling.


  • #9484
    Larbre34
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,434 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    If anything proves the case for repealing the 8th, its that public opinion, party manifestoes, medical knowledge and technology do change and that the constitution is not the place for something that may need and deserve regular democratic review.


  • #9485
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    You expect me to trust politicians in this country? We’ve already seen the likes of Leo varadkar, simon coveney, micheal martin flip flop on this issue and pander to what is populist thinking based on what their dozens of advisors have told them would enhance their image with a general election on the horizon.

    Or, god forbid, they put aside their own their own prejudices, and work for the people the are suppose to serve.


  • #9486
    Poyndexter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 97 ✭✭Poyndexter


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    People's positions can change though.. That's the reality. Eg my mother would have originally voted no. But now will most likely vote yes because of women's experiences which she was oblivious to. Is my mother also a flip flopper?

    No your mother isn’t like that at all. My point is that politicians only care about image, votes and popularity to keep themselves in a job and their party in power. The fact that Leo wouldn’t come out and publically state his stance on the 8th amendment for so long is testament to this.


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  • #9487
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,106 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    Great argument. At least the other posters who oppose my views can be sensible in their arguments and not resort to name calling.
    He's not wrong though.
    You fit the mold of a fool.

    -Missing the point (it's about repeal, not abortion)
    -Reason for voting no - imposing your morals on everyone
    -Denial - thinking that voting no stops abortion. 10 per day happen for Irish women in the UK and 43 have happened on Irish soil since the introduction of the Protection of Life during Pregnancy act.
    -Penalising everyone, because you care more about enforcing births than you do about women's health, and bodily autonomy.

    So, yeah, I think fool pretty much fits the bill of you and your ilk tbh.


  • #9488
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,615 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    Yes the main issue I have are healthy women opting to have an abortion simply because they don’t want a child.
    It sounds like you think pregnancy and childbirth and parenthood are easy. Why on earth would you force someone through all that if they weren't ready, able and willing to do so?
    If brought in here there is a far higher case of women making rash decisions jist like the many cases I have heard from women who deeply regret have an abortion or the near misses like the lady who spoke on the late late the other night. What we need is further support for women who find themselves in this situation. There are also options of putting your child up for adoption if they felt they couldn’t cope with raising a child for whatever reason.

    To be frank - that's nonsense. Most women who have unexpected and unwanted pregnancies don't want support, they want NOT TO BE PREGNANT.
    All the support in the world won't change that.


  • #9489
    It wasnt me123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭It wasnt me123


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    .......or the near misses like the lady who spoke on the late late the other night.

    What about the lady on the LLS who spoke about having to go to England because of FFA and have the remains delivered back to her by DHL or some other courier company. Where is your compassion for this living, breathing woman. It was heart breaking.

    I say again, what does it matter to you if a random stranger has an abortion. The lady sitting beside you on the luas, the lady passing you in the corridor at work, the customer saluting you on her way into your business. Her decision to have an abortion makes absolutly zero impact on your life. Zero. You could be surrounded by people who have had abortions and you would never know.

    Why should your opinion be more important that someone elses. This amendment is about choice. The woman's choice. Not some randomer making a choice for some stranger they will never meet.

    Repeal this amendment - body autonomy for all - not just men.


  • #9490
    Hammer Archer
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hammer Archer


    Killester1 wrote: »
    What options do the YES side have to offer?
    The option that we're voting yes on.
    Now what are those solutions to crisis pregnancies you mentioned where the woman wishes to terminate?


  • #9491
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    No your mother isn’t like that at all. My point is that politicians only care about image, votes and popularity to keep themselves in a job and their party in power. The fact that Leo wouldn’t come out and publically state his stance on the 8th amendment for so long is testament to this.

    The fact that Micheál Martin actually took a position that was rather unpopular within his own party is actually indicative that he decided it was the most moral position.


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  • #9492
    Poyndexter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 97 ✭✭Poyndexter


    ELM327 wrote: »
    He's not wrong though.
    You fit the mold of a fool.

    -Missing the point (it's about repeal, not abortion)
    -Reason for voting no - imposing your morals on everyone
    -Denial - thinking that voting no stops abortion. 10 per day happen for Irish women in the UK and 43 have happened on Irish soil since the introduction of the Protection of Life during Pregnancy act.
    -Penalising everyone, because you care more about enforcing births than you do about women's health, and bodily autonomy.

    So, yeah, I think fool pretty much fits the bill of you and your ilk tbh.

    When did I say saving the 8th would eradicate any abortions taking place? Of course women are still going to go to Uk I cant stop that. What I can do is vote to save the 8th so that abortion on demand doesn’t take place in this country which is my democratic right.

    And if you took your time to calm down instead of calling me names which really diminishes your argument btw youd realise I am in favour of the protection of life during pregnacy act.

    Also I am fully aware that many people aren’t in the position to support and raise a child but there are other options such as adoption where people who can’t have children for whatever reason would be delighted to adopt a child.


  • #9493
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    My point is that politicians only care about image, votes and popularity to keep themselves in a job and their party in power. The fact that Leo wouldn’t come out and publically state his stance on the 8th amendment for so long is testament to this.

    Keep themselves in a job? If that means doing what the electorate have voted them into do, that's fair enough.
    I vote for politicians who will do the people's will. That's the point.


  • #9494
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Dr Peter Boylan for the Yes campaign went particularly nasty with a retweet.

    Wendy Grace after her successful late late show appearance.
    https://twitter.com/wendyannegrace/status/990112806400921601?s=21

    Retweeted by Peter Boylan:
    https://twitter.com/mike198ryan/status/990189128997326848?s=21

    Response by Wendy Grace:
    https://twitter.com/wendyannegrace/status/990509764881846274?s=21

    Retweet by Wendy Grace:
    https://twitter.com/foxiewood/status/990528847031488512?s=21


    Peter Boylan did an unnecessary retweet which only reflected badly on him and his yes message. Playing the person and not the ball is always bad play and shows a lack of a good argument.


  • #9495
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,854 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    When did I say saving the 8th would eradicate any abortions taking place? Of course women are still going to go to Uk I cant stop that. What I can do is vote to save the 8th so that abortion on demand doesn’t take place in this country which is my democratic right.

    And if you took your time to calm down instead of calling me names which really diminishes your argument btw youd realise I am in favour of the protection of life during pregnacy act.

    Also I am fully aware that many people aren’t in the position to support and raise a child but there are other options such as adoption where people who can’t have children for whatever reason would be delighted to adopt a child.

    Here we go again :rolleyes:


  • #9496
    Poyndexter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 97 ✭✭Poyndexter


    It wasnt me123 wrote: »


    Why should your opinion be more important that someone elses. This amendment is about choice. The woman's choice. Not some randomer making a choice for some stranger they will never meet.

    Repeal this amendment - body autonomy for all - not just men.

    I am a citizen of this country with one vote. Are you saying I’m not entitled to vote or express an opinion. Sure why don’t we legalise everything so. Ridiculous argument.


  • #9497
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,106 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    When did I say saving the 8th would eradicate any abortions taking place? Of course women are still going to go to Uk I cant stop that. What I can do is vote to save the 8th so that abortion on demand doesn’t take place in this country which is my democratic right.

    And if you took your time to calm down instead of calling me names which really diminishes your argument btw youd realise I am in favour of the protection of life during pregnacy act.

    Also I am fully aware that many people aren’t in the position to support and raise a child but there are other options such as adoption where people who can’t have children for whatever reason would be delighted to adopt a child.

    Calm down? I'm sitting here with my feet up and a cup of tea looking out my balcony on this lovely sunday.

    Adoption does not terminate the pregnancy therefore it is not a viable option. Try again.


  • #9498
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Dr Peter Boylan for the Yes campaign went particularly nasty with a retweet.

    Peter Boylan did an unnecessary retweet which only reflected badly on him and his yes message. Playing the person and not the ball is always bad play and shows a lack of a good argument.
    I would view their position on sex education which relates directly to reproductive health to be entirely relevant to the debate. Pure in Heart oppose contraceptives and have a pretty controversial record in terms of the sex education course they ran. So nope, it was relevant, why is she so uncomfortable with it being highlighted? There's no actual lying involved.


  • #9499
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    When did I say saving the 8th would eradicate any abortions taking place? Of course women are still going to go to Uk I cant stop that.


    Also I am fully aware that many people aren’t in the position to support and raise a child but there are other options such as adoption where people who can’t have children for whatever reason would be delighted to adopt a child.

    You can lobby to get rid of the 13 & 14th amendments, if you feel strongly about protecting the unborn.

    Also, adoption? Do you think women should be incubators? Forced to grow children inside them to hang them over to strangers?
    Maybe they could charge for it too, I believe the Catholic Church made plenty of money out of this for long enough!

    What is your solution for a woman who doesn't wish to be pregnant?


  • #9500
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,106 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    I am a citizen of this country with one vote. Are you saying I’m not entitled to vote or express an opinion. Sure why don’t we legalise everything so. Ridiculous argument.

    We should legalise a lot of things. But thats not the subject of this thread.
    You are an Irish citizen as you state, but you should not have the right to tell another citizen what they can or cannot do with their body or restrict their bodily autonomy.


  • #9501
    Poyndexter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 97 ✭✭Poyndexter


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Calm down? I'm sitting here with my feet up and a cup of tea looking out my balcony on this lovely sunday.

    Adoption does not terminate the pregnancy therefore it is not a viable option. Try again.

    True but it terminates a baby with a heartbeat and Unfortunately in some cases such ffa and risk of life to mother abortion is the only viable option however in the case of a woman who doesn’t feel she’s ready for a baby there are many more options than abortion.


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  • #9502
    Poyndexter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 97 ✭✭Poyndexter


    ELM327 wrote: »
    We should legalise a lot of things. But thats not the subject of this thread.
    You are an Irish citizen as you state, but you should not have the right to tell another citizen what they can or cannot do with their body or restrict their bodily autonomy.

    So youre saying I shouldn’t have a vote?


  • #9503
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,615 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    True but it terminates a baby with a heartbeat and Unfortunately in some cases such ffa and risk of life to mother abortion is the only viable option however in the case of a woman who doesn’t feel she’s ready for a baby there are many more options than abortion.

    You can't use the constitution to change reality, and to change the way people think.

    Making homosexuality illegal didn't make it disappear. Making divorce illegal didn't stop many marriages being complete trainwrecks.

    Living in denial of reality, and passing laws that ignore reality, because of ideology, gives bad results and puts some people into desperate situations.

    You can't make a woman with a crisis pregnancy want to be pregnant if she really doesn't want to be. It's as simple as that - she has her own mind and that must be respected.

    If you believe that a woman should have as much control over her life as you do yourself, you need to put aside your personal distaste for abortion and accept that a woman should get to decide for herself when and how she brings children into the world.

    On top of that, when women are happy to be pregnant, the 8th amendment should not be there interfering with their right to medical consent.


  • #9504
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    I would view their position on sex education which relates directly to reproductive health to be entirely relevant to the debate. Pure in Heart oppose contraceptives and have a pretty controversial record in terms of the sex education course they ran. So nope, it was relevant, why is she so uncomfortable with it being highlighted? There's no actual lying involved.

    It is the actions of someone who feels they lost the debate on Friday night to retweet such crap about Wendy, and then her husband was brought into it, whom was not involved in the debate on Friday night.
    Guess it is Peter Boylan conceding he lost on Friday since he felt he needed to go into the gutter.


  • #9505
    dudara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    Also I am fully aware that many people aren’t in the position to support and raise a child but there are other options such as adoption where people who can’t have children for whatever reason would be delighted to adopt a child.

    Are you aware that an Irish adoption advocate group has publically stated that they are in favour of repealing the 8th? They don’t believe that adoption is the solution to every unwanted pregnancy. Look what happened in Ireland in the past when we made women carry their pregnancies to term. We ended up with the horrific Magdalene laundries and Tuam babies.

    What is your proposed solution to the case where a women just does want to be pregnant? Does not want the physical and mental stress of being pregnant, does not want the medical trauma of birth. You seem to be of the opinion that she should go through stress and trauma that she does not want to go through. In any other case than pregnancy, we would call the imposition of physical pain torture.


  • #9506
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,106 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    True but it terminates a baby with a heartbeat and Unfortunately in some cases such ffa and risk of life to mother abortion is the only viable option
    It terminates an embryo or a foetus, depending on the stage of pregnancy.
    The stage "baby" does not commence until viability which is ~22-24 weeks.
    Poyndexter wrote: »
    however in the case of a woman who doesn’t feel she’s ready for a baby there are many more options than abortion.
    No. No there isnt.
    Not without forcing her to be an incubator

    Poyndexter wrote: »
    So youre saying I shouldn’t have a vote?
    Unfortunately you do, but I'd prefer for the health and rights of our women I'd prefer if you didn't


  • #9507
    Poyndexter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 97 ✭✭Poyndexter


    bubblypop wrote: »

    What is your solution for a woman who doesn't wish to be pregnant?

    Use protection? Birth control?


  • #9508
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,106 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    RobertKK wrote: »
    It is the actions of someone who feels they lost the debate on Friday night to retweet such crap about Wendy, and then her husband was brought into it, whom was not involved in the debate on Friday night.
    Guess it is Peter Boylan conceding he lost on Friday since he felt he needed to go into the gutter.

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

    Lost the debate?
    Did you even watch it?


  • #9509
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,106 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    Use protection? Birth control?
    Any of them are able to either?
    • end a pre-existing pregnancy?
    • Offer 100% effectiveness?
    No?
    Didnt think so.


    Try again.


  • #9510
    swampgas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,615 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Poyndexter wrote: »
    Use protection? Birth control?

    And we're back ... it's Groundhog Day.


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  • #9511
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,106 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    dudara wrote: »
    Are you aware that an Irish adoption advocate group has publically stated that they are in favour of repealing the 8th? They don’t believe that adoption is the solution to every unwanted pregnancy. Look what happened in Ireland in the past when we made women carry their pregnancies to term. We ended up with the horrific Magdalene laundries and Tuam babies.

    What is your proposed solution to the case where a women just does want to be pregnant? Does not want the physical and mental stress of being pregnant, does not want the medical trauma of birth. You seem to be of the opinion that she should go through stress and trauma that she does not want to go through. In any other case than pregnancy, we would call the imposition of physical pain torture.
    They don't have one.
    Enforced incubation.


This discussion has been closed.
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