The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

volchitsa · 27-04-2018 05:01PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

I absolutely wholeheartedly agree, we can't wait until every single person in the country has been personally affected.

But we can do our absolute best to have this 8th repealed and allow women access to safe and legal abortion in this country.

Yes absolutely, and you've been doing a sterling job on that here. As you say it's all we can do.
What I meant was, that level of almost brainwashing in the country (and I include my younger self in that too) is why it is such an uphill struggle still.

Despite all the evidence, a huge number of people just won't really care until it actually affects them. It's exactly what SPUC and the rest hoped would be the case when they were pushing to get the 8th brought in in the first place, it has become the status quo and people find it hard to rethink things so radically and look at it differently from how they were told for years.

27-04-2018 05:08PM

The No campaign is akin to the Flat Earthers. A lot of noise and lies.

....... · 27-04-2018 05:20PM

This post has been deleted.

Aharddecision · 27-04-2018 05:20PM

I didn't see this thread and posted on another. Thought I'd post here too.
I've given a lot of thought to the abortion debate. More so than any other subject we get to vote on. I've been torn between what I've seen friends go through and the morality of it all. It’s such a hard choice. I do not want to make a mistake and regret my vote.

I've looked at several factors:

The physical & mental trauma caused by it being illegal here
The amount of women it has affected yearly (those who travelled to UK & Netherlands)
The support offered after the fact
The pros and cons of each side of the debate

I was still conflicted.

Until I read the doctors for life statement on eighth amendment - the Citizens' Assembly. You'll have to look it up as I can't post a link.

I would recommend you read it if you are still on the fence, as it helped me decide.

This whole debate has been wrongly submitted by both sides in my opinion as there alternative ways to resolve the awful situation.

I would suggest you read the document before you vote, even if you disagree with it, to ensure you have all the facts.

I'd welcome any feedback if you have any.

27-04-2018 05:23PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

This whole debate has been wrongly submitted by both sides in my opinion as there alternative ways to resolve the awful situation.

Just wondering what you mean by this?

27-04-2018 05:25PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

I absolutely wholeheartedly agree, we can't wait until every single person in the country has been personally affected.

But we can do our absolute best to have this 8th repealed and allow women access to safe and legal abortion in this country.

Think we discussed this before Rob, it's easy to be against something if we will never physically go through it because we're men, and unless you have someone you love face it.
Then a person has to decide well do I let them die because of my beliefs, or do I leave them if they go ahead and do it because of my beliefs.
Personally anyone who would let someone they love die because of their own personal beliefs either doesn't love the person or is a little bit mentally unhinged. I could see trying to support a partner who wanted to continue with the pregnancy if they so wished to but in the back of my mind at all times would be what if this goes wrong and I loose them.
In terms of a woman deciding to have a termination, and it causing the end of the relationship, things like this should have been discussed before ye even get serious about each other never mind after the lets move in/ marriage.

27-04-2018 05:28PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The issue of abortion first came to my attention in my latter teens. I now approach 40. At this time the anti abortion brigade used to delight in setting up information stalls just outside central bank in dublin. Replete with many of the fetal photography that we are still used to seeing today.

I decided I wanted to inform myself on the issue rather than simply take the default position that was expected of someone in my kind of headspace. So I cleared an ENTIRE Saturday.... assuming it would be a long conversation with some back and forth and lots of education for me.

I headed into town and approached the stalls and openly told them that I did not want to blindly take a default position on this issue and I wanted to hear their side of the issue openly and honestly and at length.

They said "Have you seen these pictures here?".

I agreed with them that the pictures they had chosen were indeed quite gruesome but I was there for the conversation, and the substance of their position.

"Loook at the pictures maaaaaan" I was told again in a kind of empty drawl.

After a few more attempts resulting in repeatedly been referred to the pictures I left with a whole Saturday still to fill. The entire discussion with all of them took less than 30 minutes.

And this has been representative of pretty much every conversation I have had with them since. So please, by all means regale me with what I might learn from these people if only I would listen to them. Because I HAVE been listening to them. For 2 and a half decades. What is it you feel I am not hearing?

So you are admonishing us to talk to "normal people" not figure heads and listen to them. Then when we ask YOU questions so we can listen to YOU you reverse track on that and assert we are not prepared to listen (false) and that by asking "normal people" so we can listen to them..... it means we should not be asking you and we should make up our own mind and find out for ourselves?

Bit of a have cake and eat it stacking of the deck you are pulling as a fast one there don't you think? Simultaneously admonishing people to do something, while admonishing them when they actually try to do that very thing.

Weird this is. Honest it is not. So why do you do it?

The guy outside the central bank, telling you to look at the pictures, he wouldn't happen to have had ginger hair and a bad goatee by any chance?

ohnonotgmail · 27-04-2018 05:31PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

I didn't see this thread and posted on another. Thought I'd post here too.
I've given a lot of thought to the abortion debate. More so than any other subject we get to vote on. I've been torn between what I've seen friends go through and the morality of it all. It’s such a hard choice. I do not want to make a mistake and regret my vote.

I've looked at several factors:

The physical & mental trauma caused by it being illegal here
The amount of women it has affected yearly (those who travelled to UK & Netherlands)
The support offered after the fact
The pros and cons of each side of the debate

I was still conflicted.

Until I read the doctors for life statement on eighth amendment - the Citizens' Assembly. You'll have to look it up as I can't post a link.

I would recommend you read it if you are still on the fence, as it helped me decide.

This whole debate has been wrongly submitted by both sides in my opinion as there alternative ways to resolve the awful situation.

I would suggest you read the document before you vote, even if you disagree with it, to ensure you have all the facts.

I'd welcome any feedback if you have any.

what alternative way is there to resolve the situation of a woman who doesnt want to be pregnant? Or a woman whose pregnancy is preventing her getting life-saving treatment?

robarmstrong · 27-04-2018 05:31PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

I didn't see this thread and posted on another. Thought I'd post here too.
I've given a lot of thought to the abortion debate. More so than any other subject we get to vote on. I've been torn between what I've seen friends go through and the morality of it all. It’s such a hard choice. I do not want to make a mistake and regret my vote.

I've looked at several factors:

The physical & mental trauma caused by it being illegal here
The amount of women it has affected yearly (those who travelled to UK & Netherlands)
The support offered after the fact
The pros and cons of each side of the debate

I was still conflicted.

Until I read the doctors for life statement on eighth amendment - the Citizens' Assembly. You'll have to look it up as I can't post a link.

I would recommend you read it if you are still on the fence, as it helped me decide.

This whole debate has been wrongly submitted by both sides in my opinion as there alternative ways to resolve the awful situation.

I would suggest you read the document before you vote, even if you disagree with it, to ensure you have all the facts.

I'd welcome any feedback if you have any.

So by the gist of it, you were on the fence, you looked at all the women suffering, read some pro-life propaganda and are voting No, am I correct?

Aharddecision · 27-04-2018 05:35PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Just wondering what you mean by this?

I think if we were to be debating how best to serve the women affected and agree to treat these problems on a case by case basis rather than one overall solution (one size fits all), these women would be better served. There is no mention in the government's proposal for specifics of pre and after care. Only who can do what and when and what happens if you don't.

I don't have all the answers but the bill is vague and open to interpretation afterwards which could see it becoming something we didn't vote for.

Does that make sense?

patrickSTARR · 27-04-2018 05:38PM

Hi all,

Im not hear for a big debate on my stance or a backlash from either side on my thoughts. I wont reply to this post but I feel conflicted on which side to vote for and shall outline how I see it.

I can see merit in what both sides want to an extent. I can also see many things/tactics from both sides that I disagree with.

I can see benefits in voting yes or voting no, that being said I can see the downside to voting yes or no as well. For me its not a simple as a definitive yes or no. For any undecided voter weighing up the pros and cons of each side, its not an easy decision, however it is an important one in which you should weigh up each side of the argument.

This thread is filled with people who appear have their feet firmly planted in one camp, not many undecided.

Now on my thoughts on the issue, some of my thoughts lean me to vote no, other thoughts lean me to vote yes.

On one hand I believe a foetus is a baby. Like the No posters suggest, after 9 weeks a healthy foetus can have a heart beat and is very much alive in my opinion.

I don’t agree that healthy unplanned pregnancies should be aborted.

But on the other hand, I do think the 8th as it is wrong. I read so many stories about women who have had horrible experiences and I agree that a change is needed, but I don't want to change the current laws to the point that healthy foetus can be aborted.

Many people from the yes side tell me to have compassion and vote yes. I believe its not just a womens body but the unborn child too. Once conception is made, in my eyes, its not just her body that needs consideration.

But on the other side, what about those women who have their life in danger due to health issues, they need care too. What if its my wife or daughter whos life is in danger of being lost if she has complications after realising shes pregnant.

Now the No side tell me voting to repeal that 12 week unrestricted abortions are very much a realistic possibility. Some of the Yes side tell me that this is not the case. The No side tell me I cant trust the government to put in place the right restrictions if the 8th was repealed. I do not trust the government to do whats best for people, I trust them to do whats best for themselves.

But the issue isn’t just about that, its about helping women who are in awful, life or death situations that need a repeal. That much I know.

So for me I want to make the right choice, I see the good in both sides for my beliefs. I see the negatives in both sides if they don’t win.

I feel which ever way I vote, there are negative and positive consequences. Its a tough decision for me and one that I fear which ever one I make, someone will suffer whether its a father who sees his healthy unborn child aborted by the mother, or woman who dies due to the complications of not being able to get the right care.

For me there is no right answer, just the best one I can make.

gmisk · 27-04-2018 05:40PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

I was still conflicted

Until I read the doctors for life statement on eighth amendment - the Citizens' Assembly. You'll have to look it up as I can't post a link.

I'd welcome any feedback if you have any.

And you think that document would be impartial?

27-04-2018 05:40PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

I think if we were to be debating how best to serve the women affected and agree to treat these problems on a case by case basis rather than one overall solution (one size fits all), these women would be better served. There is no mention in the government's proposal for specifics of pre and after care. Only who can do what and when and what happens if you don't.

I don't have all the answers but the bill is vague and open to interpretation afterwards which could see it becoming something we didn't vote for.

Does that make sense?

Well, not really! There is no bill yet.
& I don't think they are suggesting one overall solution, just more choice for women who find themselves in a difficult position.
As it is, they have certain choices, basically have the baby or go to a different country for treatment.
I'm not sure how keeping the 8th amendment makes this better?

Aharddecision · 27-04-2018 05:40PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

So by the gist of it, you were on the fence, you looked at all the women suffering, read some pro-life propaganda and are voting No, am I correct?

No you are not. Im voting no because it is a bad bill.

I've a friend. Her baby died when she was 6 months gone. I can't tell you the heartache they went though. Explaining to everyone, her young kids especially, was not something anyone should ever have to do. Her life was not as risk. She had to keep the baby inside her until she was 9 months. Tell me how this bill would release anyone from that agony?

amcalester · 27-04-2018 05:41PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

I think if we were to be debating how best to serve the women affected and agree to treat these problems on a case by case basis rather than one overall solution (one size fits all), these women would be better served. There is no mention in the government's proposal for specifics of pre and after care. Only who can do what and when and what happens if you don't.

I don't have all the answers but the bill is vague and open to interpretation afterwards which could see it becoming something we didn't vote for.

Does that make sense?

You’re not voting on the proposed legislation.

You are voting solely on whether you want to repeal/replace the 8th.

The legislation is an entirely separate issue.

Aharddecision · 27-04-2018 05:42PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Well, not really! There is no bill yet.
& I don't think they are suggesting one overall solution, just more choice for women who find themselves in a difficult position.
As it is, they have certain choices, basically have the baby or go to a different country for treatment.
I'm not sure how keeping the 8th amendment makes this better?

Sorry bad choice of words.

From the doc I quoted

The Amendment clearly supports standard obstetric practice of insisting on the use of all medically necessary treatments to protect the life of the mother even if this unintentionally compromises the life of the unborn child- while as far as is practicable making every effort to protect the life of that child.
The 8th amendment does not compromise the care of expectant mothers. Ireland remains one of the safest places in the world to have a child.
Those politicians and doctors who have declared themselves publicly in favour of repeal, view "the 8th" as the single biggest obstacle, not only to selective abortion for unborn children who are terminally ill, but also to the wider availability of abortion as a means of fertility control. This is precisely what the eighth amendment of the constitution was intended to do. Retention of the Eighth would mean that the current brake on abortion provision in this country would continue. Removal of the Amendment would remove the brake. If this is what we want.

Aharddecision · 27-04-2018 05:43PM

amcalester wrote: »

You’re not voting on the proposed legislation.

You are voting solely on whether you want to repeal/replace the 8th.

The legislation is an entirely separate issue.

Will we get to vote on the legislation?

robarmstrong · 27-04-2018 05:44PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

No you are not. Im voting no because it is a bad bill.

I've a friend. Her baby died when she was 6 months gone. I can't tell you the heartache they went though. Explaining to everyone, her young kids especially, was not something anyone should ever have to do. Her life was not as risk. She had to keep the baby inside her until she was 9 months. Tell me how this bill would release anyone from that agony?

By allowing her to abort that baby instead of making her give birth to a dead child.

I know all about that heartache. I've had to watch my partner have miscarriage after miscarriage after miscarriage because she was denied access to a safe and legal abortion, the same way your friend was due to the 8th.

Repealing the 8th would change that.

27-04-2018 05:46PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

Will we get to vote on the legislation?

You can lobby, March etc the same as anyone does when there is a bill.

amcalester · 27-04-2018 05:47PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

Will we get to vote on the legislation?

As per the constitution our elected representatives, TD’s and Senators, will vote on it.

If you don’t agree with the proposal then lobby by your local TD.

Aharddecision · 27-04-2018 05:47PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

By allowing her to abort that baby instead of making her give birth to a dead child.

I know all about that heartache. I've had to watch my partner have miscarriage after miscarriage after miscarriage because she was denied access to a safe and legal abortion, the same way your friend was due to the 8th.

Repealing the 8th would change that.

My problem is I feel uninformed as to what will actually happen after we vote yes.

Bannasidhe · 27-04-2018 05:48PM

Gintonious wrote: »

Apparently as well, this image was used for a sperm bank...and I am not joking here.

https://www.xytex.com/author/3mediaweb/

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

robarmstrong · 27-04-2018 05:49PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

My problem is I feel uninformed as to what will actually happen after we vote yes.

Your problem is appearing to be getting in the way of women like your friend having access to safe and legal abortion, which she was denied to, due to the 8th.

So if your friend falls pregnant again, and the same thing happens to the baby, the no vote will force her to go through the same pain as before.

So you won't have helped her, at all.

amcalester · 27-04-2018 05:49PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

My problem is I feel uninformed as to what will actually happen after we vote yes.

Assuming the currently proposed legislation passed women who are currently denied certain medical treatments will then have the option of undergoing previously unavailable medical treatment.

BabysCoffee · 27-04-2018 05:53PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

My problem is I feel uninformed as to what will actually happen after we vote yes.

What would you like to happen after we vote?

eviltwin · 27-04-2018 05:53PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

No you are not. Im voting no because it is a bad bill.

I've a friend. Her baby died when she was 6 months gone. I can't tell you the heartache they went though. Explaining to everyone, her young kids especially, was not something anyone should ever have to do. Her life was not as risk. She had to keep the baby inside her until she was 9 months. Tell me how this bill would release anyone from that agony?

If the baby was dead why was she not induced?

I smell a fake story.......

Aharddecision · 27-04-2018 05:54PM

Thanks everyone for your replies. You've given me new perspective and I will now vote yes and hope our legislators will do right by us.

I'm glad I came here now

))

robarmstrong · 27-04-2018 05:56PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

Thanks everyone for your replies. You've given me new perspective and I will now vote yes and hope our legislators will do right by us.

I'm glad I came here now ))

If I had of known we were that persuasive I'd have at least thrown in that you offer to wash our cars.

Sh!te, looks like I've missed out big time now.

Aharddecision · 27-04-2018 05:56PM

eviltwin wrote: »

If the baby was dead why was she not induced?

I smell a fake story.......

She was on the late late show. You can probably look it up. It's not a fake story. Thats an awful thing to say but I can understand your scepticism in our current climate.

Aharddecision · 27-04-2018 05:58PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

If I had of known we were that persuasive I'd have at least thrown in that you offer to wash our cars.

Sh!te, looks like I've missed out big time now.

Haha!! Get the boat

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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