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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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Comments

  • #9002
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    Are we at least allowed to know the general theme of it? Or where to find the level headed No arguments?

    Actually that's a good point.

    What discussion was the poster even at??


  • #9003
    tunguska
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,545 ✭✭✭tunguska


    BabysCoffee wrote: »
    I'm listening.

    What did you learn?

    Like I said, have some courage and go talk to someone yourself.


  • #9004
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    iguana wrote: »
    Not really. When I was grieving a miscarriage the sight of many of those posters would have destroyed me. I wouldn't have been able to cope with seeing them. I genuinely don't know if I would have been able to leave the house for the two months we can expect to keep seeing them. I certainly wouldn't have been safe to drive. That's not hyperbole, my mental health was way too fragile to have coped with them. And that's not an unusual reaction either. I know of a lot of women who are not managing very well at all right now because of those posters. The temptation, for their loved ones, to just get rid of them must be overwhelming. It's a horrible, horrible abusive tactic and they know it because women have been explaining for years about the hurt that imagery causes to bereaved families and begging them to stop.

    I'm sorry for your hurt Iguana


  • #9005
    tunguska
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,545 ✭✭✭tunguska


    amdublin wrote: »
    I'm another person prepared to listen.

    In what world does asking someone means the opposite (I.e. that you're not interested)

    Come on just tell us. It's been built up to something amazing now

    What?


  • #9006
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    tunguska wrote: »
    Like I said, have some courage and go talk to someone yourself.

    Or just tell us what you've learned so we can all digest the information you gathered.

    What are the chances of us coming across the same people you did?

    Seriously failing to see why you don't just share with us what the perspective you learned was about, I'd be more than eager to share if it was me.


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  • #9007
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    tunguska wrote: »
    Like I said, have some courage and go talk to someone yourself.

    Where does one go? Where did you go??

    Why the big mystery now? You learnt so much but won't tell us what you learnt. And not so much to change your mind how you're voting right?


  • #9008
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    tunguska wrote: »
    If youre defacing a poster it means youre a coward who hasnt got the courage to go talk to someone face to face.

    I'm not condoning damaging posters, but you have to admit those posters go wide of the mark, don't they? They hardly foster the "love both" image pro life people like to think they portray, so they?


  • #9009
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    tunguska wrote: »
    What?

    Just tell us!!

    You say we are not interested in listening. A few of us have said we are. And you've now said no you still won't tell us we need to find the people you spoke with to find out ourselves.

    Please tell us. I want to hear.


  • #9010
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    It's like we're all kids, sitting around the kitchen fire, asking grampa to tell us one more bedtime story :D


  • #9011
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    tunguska, do you realise that what you are doing is pretty much identical to the usual underhanded discussion tactics of people supporting an argument they can't actually justify. It's very common, very transparent and anyone with any experience of human conversation is wise to it. I'm just mentioning that as I really do believe that you learned something important and I'd hate to think that you'd accidentally lead anyone reading this to think you were that kind of underhanded tactic user. The more you refuse to share what you have learned, the more you really do seem like that kind of disingenuous poster. So please do share, we are all so interested.


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  • #9012
    tunguska
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,545 ✭✭✭tunguska


    amdublin wrote: »
    Just tell us!!

    You say we are not interested in listening. A few of us have said we are. And you've now said no you still won't tell us we need to find the people you spoke with to find out ourselves.

    Please tell us. I want to hear.

    But if you were interested and genuinely open to hearing what people on the no side have to say, you'd go seek them out in the real world. Theres discussions all over the city, find one and just go. And go with an open attitude.


  • #9013
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Or you know, you could stop being intentionally vague and deflective by just telling us what you learned so we could all collectively discuss this new perspective?

    Otherwise you're just telling porky pies tbh.


  • #9014
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    tunguska wrote: »
    But if you were interested and genuinely open to hearing what people on the no side have to say, you'd go seek them out in the real world. Theres discussions all over the city, find one and just go. And go with an open attitude.

    It's twenty five past midnight and I'm the only adult in the house with my 5 year old. I can't actually go to a meeting right now but I am super curious right now. You've totally piqued my curiosity and I'd just really love to know what you have learned.


  • #9015
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Maybe she is suicidal.

    Did I read something about having agreement from 2 doctors on suicidal grounds?

    3

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #9016
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    iguana wrote: »
    I imagine we'll also have Northern Irish women coming here. It will be much easier to drive or get a bus to the nearest Irish county with an abortion service than it will be to fly or sail to Britain. Even if you have to come back again 72 hours after your initial appointment driving from Derry to Donegal is pretty straightforward.

    Maybe but they get it on the NHS in mainland Britain as far as I know. More hypocrisy.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #9017
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    stockdam wrote: »
    So if you don't believe that something is right then your only solution appears to to be to use force to stop it?

    You seem to believe that its fine to have a law against abortion with a 14 year sentence attached and then have the state turn a blind eye and prosecute no-one for breaking it.

    It isn't. The state has a Constitutional duty to defend and vindicate the equal right to life of the unborn. Eventually, the AG is going to have no choice but to jail some teenager for buying abortion pills.

    Unless we change the 8th first.


  • #9018
    erica74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭erica74


    tunguska wrote: »
    But if you were interested and genuinely open to hearing what people on the no side have to say, you'd go seek them out in the real world. Theres discussions all over the city, find one and just go. And go with an open attitude.

    Is it a big secret? Why can't you just post it here? You'll reach a wide audience. Or, are you just talking out of your arse?

    Repeal the 8th.


  • #9019
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    tunguska wrote: »
    Theres discussions all over the city, find one and just go.

    How do I find one of these discussions of this pro-life wisdom, master?


  • #9020
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    How do I find one of these discussions of this pro-life wisdom, master?

    Ready, you are not, my young Padawan, to learn the ways of the pro-life campaign online.

    Seek out a pro-lifer for a real-life discussion, you must.

    Share with you my learnings, I cannot.


  • #9021
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    tunguska wrote: »
    But if you were interested and genuinely open to hearing what people on the no side have to say, you'd go seek them out in the real world. Theres discussions all over the city, find one and just go. And go with an open attitude.

    What with work and other commitments I don’t have time. Please tell us what you learned, that we can learn from you.


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  • #9022
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,363 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    tunguska wrote: »
    Why dont you go and talk to some people from the No side, find out what you might learn yourself. Like actually listen to them instead of trying to win an argument.

    The issue of abortion first came to my attention in my latter teens. I now approach 40. At this time the anti abortion brigade used to delight in setting up information stalls just outside central bank in dublin. Replete with many of the fetal photography that we are still used to seeing today.

    I decided I wanted to inform myself on the issue rather than simply take the default position that was expected of someone in my kind of headspace. So I cleared an ENTIRE Saturday.... assuming it would be a long conversation with some back and forth and lots of education for me.

    I headed into town and approached the stalls and openly told them that I did not want to blindly take a default position on this issue and I wanted to hear their side of the issue openly and honestly and at length.

    They said "Have you seen these pictures here?".

    I agreed with them that the pictures they had chosen were indeed quite gruesome but I was there for the conversation, and the substance of their position.

    "Loook at the pictures maaaaaan" I was told again in a kind of empty drawl.

    After a few more attempts resulting in repeatedly been referred to the pictures I left with a whole Saturday still to fill. The entire discussion with all of them took less than 30 minutes.

    And this has been representative of pretty much every conversation I have had with them since. So please, by all means regale me with what I might learn from these people if only I would listen to them. Because I HAVE been listening to them. For 2 and a half decades. What is it you feel I am not hearing?
    tunguska wrote: »
    But thats the thing, youre not prepared to listen. If you were you wouldnt be asking me you'd make up your own mind and find out for yourself.

    So you are admonishing us to talk to "normal people" not figure heads and listen to them. Then when we ask YOU questions so we can listen to YOU you reverse track on that and assert we are not prepared to listen (false) and that by asking "normal people" so we can listen to them..... it means we should not be asking you and we should make up our own mind and find out for ourselves?

    Bit of a have cake and eat it stacking of the deck you are pulling as a fast one there don't you think? Simultaneously admonishing people to do something, while admonishing them when they actually try to do that very thing.

    Weird this is. Honest it is not. So why do you do it?


  • #9023
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,363 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    stockdam wrote: »
    You've said that the child has no rights which is your belief.

    I suspect the "That is your belief" mantra risks acting like all beliefs are equivalent and equal, one of the consequences of our post-truth generation. But some beliefs are based in argument, evidence, data and reasoning......... and some are simply arbitrarily or subjectively made up on the spot and then adhered to religiously. And we should not be treating them on the same plane as each other.

    Regardless of when a fetus has or has not got rights in your mind or anyone else's, I am not interested in the belief or the opinion. I am interested in the substance it is based on. Because while you might suspect that there is no "right and wrong" when it comes to beliefs and opinions.... the basis behind them often is either right or wrong. You dig down on peoples opinions and eventually you hit things that are facts, or errors.
    stockdam wrote: »
    Are you ok with abortion right up to the point of birth or even immediately afterwards? If not then when is it ok and not ok??

    For me rights, morality, ethics are all focused on one thing only. The rights, choices and well being of sentience creatures.

    The fetus at 0-12 weeks, when the vast majority of terminations occur is not even remotely a sentient creature. I see no reason at this time to afford such a fetus rights, or moral and ethical concerns. Perhaps you have an idea why we might?

    Approaching birth however the faculty of sentience has actually formed and is likely on line to some degree. This changes the landscape we are on. You ask when the fetus should attain rights and I believe that the moment we have any reason to suspect the fetus has transitioned from a biological life to a sentient agent is the only coherent mediation point for this transition.

    What is your mediation point and what is it based on? What stage do YOU think a fetus should become the focus of our moral and ethical concern, and attain rights. And what is the argument, evidence, data and reasoning that is the foundation of your conclusions?


  • #9024
    Allinall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭Allinall


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    It's like we're all kids,.... :D

    Never truer words spoken.


  • #9025
    frag420
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,161 ✭✭✭frag420


    tunguska wrote: »
    But if you were interested and genuinely open to hearing what people on the no side have to say, you'd go seek them out in the real world. Theres discussions all over the city, find one and just go. And go with an open attitude.

    I have seeked them out and listened to them and their stories, some heartbreaking stories that turned out well thankfully and some not so happy stories that turned out very bad and upsetting for both the parents and their already born children as they had to watch their mother forced to give birth to a child they desire bit knew would not live more than a couple of hours in extreme pain and agony! And of course there is the newborn who supporters of the 8th want to offer dignity and life to by forcing it to live all of its short life in extreme pain and suffering!

    Love both my bollix!!

    You happy now!?

    Ok your turn, tell us what YOU have learned!


  • #9026
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    tunguska wrote: »
    But if you were interested and genuinely open to hearing what people on the no side have to say, you'd go seek them out in the real world. Theres discussions all over the city, find one and just go. And go with an open attitude.

    I'm well aware of what they say. Eg their pr manager has engaged in smear campaigns against midwives and obstetricians since the start of the campaign. The reason, exposing outright lies such as fake nurses or diminishing the impact of eighth. They've run an incredibly nasty campaign.


  • #9027
    PhoenixParker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    tunguska wrote: »
    But if you were interested and genuinely open to hearing what people on the no side have to say, you'd go seek them out in the real world. Theres discussions all over the city, find one and just go. And go with an open attitude.

    The pro life side have not only been listened to, they've had their way for 35 years in the 8th amendment.

    The proof, evidence and openness I need is in what's happened since then. Watch what people do, not what they say. 35 years is a lot of evidence, real actions and consequences to review. Words are by comparison of little weight.

    On that front.

    We have abortion in Ireland, both via a constitutionally protected right to travel and the illegal importation of pills. The 8th hasn't stopped that.

    What the 8th has done is make it dangerous for desperate women taking pills at home without medical support. It's also added hugely to the trauma of women in difficult situations like rape, FFA, abusive relationships, struggling to care for the family she already has.

    It also undermines the care given to every pregnant woman in Ireland. I've said it before, I'll say it again, Savita didn't want an abortion, she wanted a baby. She had a miscarriage.

    The 8th hasn't worked to prevent abortion.
    The 8th endangers my life during pregnancy.

    There is absolutely no reason to keep it.


  • #9028
    Hannibal_Smith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,426 ✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    tunguska wrote: »
    But if you were interested and genuinely open to hearing what people on the no side have to say, you'd go seek them out in the real world. Theres discussions all over the city, find one and just go. And go with an open attitude.

    Why the mystery? You came here to vent about how closed minded the yes side is and how aggressive they are and if they opened their mind to discussion they would learn something. You've been asked what you learned and then you start calling the yes side cowards.

    People in glass houses.


  • #9029
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Allinall wrote: »
    Never truer words spoken.

    ?


  • #9030
    NIMAN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,625 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Anyone hear Nell McCafferty on The Last Word yesterday?

    She was the 1st person I heard on Irish media since this debate started to actually say what the actual abortion procedure entailed. It was powerful stuff, and a disturbing listen. And she is going to vote YES too.

    I wonder will it have changed anyone's mind as to how they are going to vote?


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  • #9031
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,914 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Anyone hear Nell McCafferty on The Last Word yesterday?

    She was the 1st person I heard on Irish media since this debate started to actually say what the actual abortion procedure entailed. It was powerful stuff, and a disturbing listen. And she is going to vote YES too.

    I wonder will it have changed anyone's mind as to how they are going to vote?

    what did she actually say? did she describe a surgical abortion or a medical abortion? She wrote an article where she described a foetus being sucked from the womb as if that represented the majority of abortions. I think she is misinformed/out of date.


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