SLARS

Icsics · 23-04-2018 5:27pm #1

So SLAR season seems to be upon us! Does the whole dept have to be present or just the teachers involved? Am I correct in saying they start within school time & may run over? Thanks

paddybarry · 23-04-2018 6:38pm

Icsics wrote: »

So SLAR season seems to be upon us! Does the whole dept have to be present or just the teachers involved? Am I correct in saying they start within school time & may run over? Thanks

Must start within school time i.e. last period. All faculty members should be present.

Icsics · 23-04-2018 6:52pm

paddybarry wrote: »

Must start within school time i.e. last period. All faculty members should be present.

Thanks paddybarry. Is it compulsory for all, even if they don’t have that group?

paddybarry · 23-04-2018 7:02pm

Icsics wrote: »

Thanks paddybarry. Is it compulsory for all, even if they don’t have that group?

Im not sure. All members should be there as they need to familiarise themselves with process of correcting the cba and role of facilitator which is to be rotated.

Some schools could have 10 plus in a faculty. May be difficult to release all teachers for last period.

If so, facilitator and teachers with classes doing cba should start in school with others joining after school. Easy solution.

Icsics · 23-04-2018 7:24pm

paddybarry wrote: »

Im not sure. All members should be there as they need to familiarise themselves with process of correcting the cba and role of facilitator which is to be rotated.

Some schools could have 10 plus in a faculty. May be difficult to release all teachers for last period.

If so, facilitator and teachers with classes doing cba should start in school with others joining after school. Easy solution.

Yes, that's what I thought. Cheers

TheDriver · 23-04-2018 8:04pm

paddybarry wrote: »

Must start within school time i.e. last period. All faculty members should be present.

Where does it state this? We got nothing from Dept saying this

evolving_doors · 23-04-2018 8:32pm

No it doesn't have to be all faculty members present, but they can if they want.
It really only concerns those doing the assessing (which of course could be 'all faculty members').

facilitator should ensure that each teacher has at least one of their samples discussed during the meeting.

from HERE
So I would take it from that that only the teachers present -i.e. 'each teacher'- are undergoing the assessing.

From what I got from in-service meetings: In the case of one teacher then they should join with another school. If I remember correctly there should be at least 3 teachers.

Jamfa · 23-04-2018 8:37pm

TheDriver wrote: »

Where does it state this? We got nothing from Dept saying this

It doesn’t. There is typical lack of clarity within the circular about the start time & as a SLAR meeting is to take 2 hours it’s akmost impossible to have teachers with that block of free classes during the day. We’re doing ours during the summer house exams which does make it possible as the teachers won’t be on supervision during the SLAR meeting.

The only teachers participating in the SLAR meetings will be the 2nd year subject teachers who will be sharing samples of their students CBAs. If other teachers want to watch I’m sure that’s fine but they certainly don’t need to go.

mirrorwall14 · 23-04-2018 8:38pm

paddybarry wrote: »

Must start within school time i.e. last period. All faculty members should be present.

Thats not going to work where teachers have to meet from different schools.... The lack of clarity is awful

paddybarry · 23-04-2018 9:20pm

TheDriver wrote: »

Where does it state this? We got nothing from Dept saying this

This is ASTI stance. It was sent to all stewards. Pretty sure I read that all dept member should be present and/or it was said at in service.

ccazza · 23-04-2018 9:22pm

TheDriver wrote: »

Where does it state this? We got nothing from Dept saying this

https://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/School_Stewards_Letter_re._SLAR_Meetings.pdf This is what asti sent out to school stewards about this.

Nellieelephant · 23-04-2018 10:30pm

A further clarification relating to SLAR meetings was provided by the department of Education and Skills to ASTI in December 2015. It stated as follows:
“The Department confirms that any attempt to impose the organisation of SLAR meetings entirely outside school hours would contravene the agreement. The intention is that SLAR meetings will be scheduled to commence within the timetable, involving the inclusion of a normal timetabled period. However, given the required duration [approximately two hours per meeting], flexibility to run beyond the normal school day for some of the duration of the meeting is required. ”
ASTI has already raised this matter at the Junior Cycle Implementation Body and has insisted that the provisions of the agreement must be adhered to in all schools.

Let’s not be fools - start in school time! Thank you! The Dept signed off on this.

Chancer3001 · 23-04-2018 10:34pm

i signed up to a SLAR information meeting.

I have a half day.

Its on from 3pm to 5pm o my half day

I wont be going

Nellieelephant · 23-04-2018 10:40pm

We are walking ourselves into teacher burnout. Meetings about meetings. Half days gone. Webinars. Twitter overload. Extra curricular will be dead. Maybe when the GAA can’t run -someone might shout stop. I would nearly prefer to correct my own than deal with overbearing colleagues. I am on a one person strike.

deiseindublin · 23-04-2018 11:59pm

paddybarry wrote: »

Must start within school time i.e. last period. All faculty members should be present.

I've seen this on ASTI literature but not on TUI stuff. Lots of discussion about this at mo.

Edited to say I now see your clarification above.

Would appreciate if anybody posts a link if they find anything from TUI.

Nellieelephant · 24-04-2018 2:59am

deiseindublin wrote: »

I've seen this on ASTI literature but not on TUI stuff. Lots of discussion about this at mo.

Edited to say I now see your clarification above.

Would appreciate if anybody posts a link if they find anything from TUI.

Ask head office for clarification. The document is called appendix Joint Statement on Principles and Implementation 2015. Signed off by Gerry Quinn TUI. A limited number of meeting may run beyond tutition time. Hence they all should start in school time. 9.7 on document.

https://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/Junior_Cycle_Appendix_Professional_Time_14Jul2015_Final.pdf

doc_17 · 24-04-2018 12:09pm

Nellieelephant wrote: »

Ask head office for clarification. The document is called appendix Joint Statement on Principles and Implementation 2015. Signed off by Gerry Quinn TUI. A limited number of meeting may run beyond tutition time. Hence they all should start in school time. 9.7 on document.

https://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/Junior_Cycle_Appendix_Professional_Time_14Jul2015_Final.pdf

They can start when everyone is off. If that before or after last bell is no odds according to the circulars regarding the use of professional time. The 40 min reduction in tutition is what covers is.

dory · 24-04-2018 12:12pm

In our school it's definitely only those teachers involved who will be at SLAR meetings. It would be a logistical nightmare to try and get everyone there.

paddybarry · 24-04-2018 12:14pm

dory wrote: »

In our school it's definitely only those teachers involved who will be at SLAR meetings. It would be a logistical nightmare to try and get everyone there.

Why cant meeting start period before end of school with class teachers and facilitator with other members joining after school?

dory · 24-04-2018 1:48pm

paddybarry wrote: »

Why cant meeting start period before end of school with class teachers and facilitator with other members joining after school?

Mostly because they don't want to.

This was brought up at an ASTI meeting recently and it was said that only those involved have to go.

doc_17 · 24-04-2018 3:18pm

paddybarry wrote: »

Why cant meeting start period before end of school with class teachers and facilitator with other members joining after school?

If all teachers involved in the SLAR are off during that period it can start. But you’re not allowed ask for S&S to be used.

evolving_doors · 24-04-2018 3:44pm

doc_17 wrote: »

If all teachers involved in the SLAR are off during that period it can start. But you’re not allowed ask for S&S to be used.

I think there might be some movement on that. That's what we were told by the rep who asked the ASTI for clarification. Doubt it'll be resolved this year though.

doc_17 · 24-04-2018 5:07pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

I think there might be some movement on that. That's what we were told by the rep who asked the ASTI for clarification. Doubt it'll be resolved this year though.

The reduction in Teaching to 21h20 gives 20 mins of professional time. Two hour SLARs take place when all teachers who were involved in the CBA agree that it takes place. There is no place for S&S as this would add workload to other teachers not involved in the SLARs. Paid substitution would be great but no way the dept would agree to that. In reality they should only take 1hr from what I’ve heard from colleagues who have them completed.

There is a 2 hour slot available for the SLAR faciliatator, one teacher only, that has paid substitution available.

TheDriver · 24-04-2018 6:00pm

doc_17 wrote: »

The reduction in Teaching to 21h20 gives 20 mins of professional time. .

60min-20min = 40mins

(sorry doc)

TheDriver · 24-04-2018 6:01pm

doc_17 wrote: »

The reduction in Teaching to 21h20 gives 20 mins of professional time. Two hour SLARs take place when all teachers who were involved in the CBA agree that it takes place. There is no place for S&S as this would add workload to other teachers not involved in the SLARs. Paid substitution would be great but no way the dept would agree to that. In reality they should only take 1hr from what I’ve heard from colleagues who have them completed.

There is a 2 hour slot available for the SLAR faciliatator, one teacher only, that has paid substitution available.

Thats the key, there is no S&S/hours available, the 40 mins per week is meant to include these meetings. Its grand to state when they should start but the end result is that professional time is supposed to facilitate the meetings.

Benicetomonty · 24-04-2018 6:10pm

TheDriver wrote: »

Thats the key, there is no S&S/hours available, the 40 mins per week is meant to include these meetings. Its grand to state when they should start but the end result is that professional time is supposed to facilitate the meetings.

ASTI said, and I quote, "management's problem". Circular is quite clear, under no circumstances should a SLAR begin outside school hours. Professional time does not obligate staying beyond school hours.

All stakeholders except the ASTI signed off on the new junior cert. Isnt it ironic that the ASTI now seems to be the only one thats trying ensure correct implementation? Where were management's questions and requests for clarifications when they were signing off on this nonsense?

paddybarry · 24-04-2018 6:15pm

Agree 100%.

doc_17 · 24-04-2018 6:55pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

ASTI said, and I quote, "management's problem". Circular is quite clear, under no circumstances should a SLAR begin outside school hours. Professional time does not obligate staying beyond school hours.

All stakeholders except the ASTI signed off on the new junior cert. Isnt it ironic that the ASTI now seems to be the only one thats trying ensure correct implementation? Where were management's questions and requests for clarifications when they were signing off on this nonsense?

What circular is this?

Benicetomonty · 24-04-2018 7:10pm

doc_17 wrote: »

What circular is this?

0015 - 2017

Nellieelephant · 24-04-2018 9:37pm

Absolutely managements problem.

amacca · 24-04-2018 9:59pm

What about schools that finish at different times different days?

OH finishes some days at 4:25 and other days at 3:45...she was told by management start SLAR at 3:45 on the days school finishes at 3:45 as this is within school time......what are peoples feelings on this......just curious she wouldn't begrudge it but she is also reluctant to set a precedent/piss people off

Nellieelephant · 24-04-2018 10:09pm

amacca wrote: »

What about schools that finish at different times different days?

OH finishes some days at 4:25 and other days at 3:45...she was told by management start SLAR at 3:45 on the days school finishes at 3:45 as this is within school time......what are peoples feelings on this......just curious she wouldn't begrudge it but she is also reluctant to set a precedent/piss people off

From the reading of this 3.45 is after school so NO should not be happening. Yes that would piss me off. I think most staff are having a union meeting to pre empt any issues. Ask the school steward to hold a meeting is the first port of call? No one needs to tackle this on there own. ASTI are clear on this. I feel people are lethargic to this - era it’s only a few hours. It’s a few hours on top of Croke Park, on top of S&S, on top of getting to grips with new curriculum. NO!

Mardy Bum · 24-04-2018 10:18pm

Nellieelephant wrote: »

amacca wrote: »

What about schools that finish at different times different days?

OH finishes some days at 4:25 and other days at 3:45...she was told by management start SLAR at 3:45 on the days school finishes at 3:45 as this is within school time......what are peoples feelings on this......just curious she wouldn't begrudge it but she is also reluctant to set a precedent/piss people off

From the reading of this 3.45 is after school so NO should not be happening. Yes that would piss me off. I think most staff are having a union meeting to pre empt any issues. Ask the school steward to hold a meeting is the first port of call? No one needs to tackle this on there own. ASTI are clear on this. I feel people are lethargic to this - era it’s only a few hours. It’s a few hours on top of Croke Park, on top of S&S, on top of getting to grips with new curriculum. NO!

I'm lost here. The ASTI have nothing to do with the SLAR procedures. Where does it say that they must happen during school? We get 40 minutes off every week for them. The ASTI crumbled on this and had nothing to do with the arrangements.

amacca · 24-04-2018 10:22pm

Nellieelephant wrote: »

From the reading of this 3.45 is after school so NO should not be happening. Yes that would piss me off. I think most staff are having a union meeting to pre empt any issues. Ask the school steward to hold a meeting is the first port of call? No one needs to tackle this on there own. ASTI are clear on this. I feel people are lethargic to this - era it’s only a few hours. It’s a few hours on top of Croke Park, on top of S&S, on top of getting to grips with new curriculum. NO!

But if SS is not something that can be used to free up the relevant teachers at one time I suppose I can see managements point of view too......how the hell can you have a SLAR during school time when teachers just won't be off and if I'm interpreting it correctly they can't be covered under SS .. It just seems to be another very poorly thought out aspect of this shiny new JC ....I'm not sure she would get anywhere trying to organise a union meeting for a number of reasons...

I do agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment above however.

I mean....must begin during school time (fine)...but it seems theres no way to achieve that within existing rules in a lot of situations, what do you do...launch a crusade....how about the people making the rules think them out properly so they are actually workable?....then again they have already shown form for the exact opposite of that with the new JC.

Nellieelephant · 24-04-2018 10:25pm

amacca wrote: »

But if SS is not something that can be used to free up the relevant teachers at one time I suppose I can see managements point of view too......how the hell can you have a SLAR during school time when teachers just won't be off .. It just seems to be another very poorly thought out aspect of this shiny new JC ....I'm not sure she would get anywhere trying to organise a union meeting for a number of reasons...

I do agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment above however.

Yes agreed - so poorly thought out. Education in Ireland 2018.

Mountainsandh · 24-04-2018 10:53pm

As the only teacher of my language in my school, there is also the added issue of finding a school to join for SLAR. I'm not too happy about having to go to another school, and I can't see other teachers being very happy with someone from the outside joining in.
From a practical point of view, it also means that we have to find times that will suit both myself and them, with schools in our town finishing at different times different days, and that's assuming I am able to join the nearest school, where travelling time will also have to be allowed for.
If I have to travel further, it is possible I may need to be released earlier, or join the meeting late (effectively possibly starting after school time).

As it stands I may not have to do the CBA since I may work in another function in the school next year, I will be only too happy to drop the burden of this new Junior Cycle, but the issues will remain for whoever will take over.

doc_17 · 24-04-2018 11:20pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

0015 - 2017

What page in the circular does it say that?

SligoBrewer · 24-04-2018 11:47pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I'm lost here. The ASTI have nothing to do with the SLAR procedures. Where does it say that they must happen during school? We get 40 minutes off every week for them. The ASTI crumbled on this and had nothing to do with the arrangements.

It's workers' conditions so the ASTI are of course going to stand up for what was agreed and is set out in multiple circulars and clarifications. The ASTI didn't crumble on anything to do with SLARs. The Junior Cycle reform as a whole is a different question entirely and I would argue that it was a minority who forced that through rather than the union as a union.

Circular 24/2016 p. 21

Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of the meeting.

Circular 15/2017 p. 26

Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of the meeting. A SLAR meeting should take place in one two-hour session

The Department are quite clear on SLARs. They start inside the timetable, and can overrun. We use some of our timetabled time for this. It's since been clarified that S&S can't be used to cover classes. That is a management/department problem, not a teacher one.

The TUI took the view that the school day on a half day extends to the full day. Which is a crock of nonsense.

That the TUI aren't standing up for its members isn't any of the ASTI's concern.

evolving_doors · 25-04-2018 12:06am

Mountainsandh wrote: »

As the only teacher of my language in my school, there is also the added issue of finding a school to join for SLAR. I'm not too happy about having to go to another school, and I can't see other teachers being very happy with someone from the outside joining in.
From a practical point of view, it also means that we have to find times that will suit both myself and them, with schools in our town finishing at different times different days, and that's assuming I am able to join the nearest school, where travelling time will also have to be allowed for.
If I have to travel further, it is possible I may need to be released earlier, or join the meeting late (effectively possibly starting after school time).

As it stands I may not have to do the CBA since I may work in another function in the school next year, I will be only too happy to drop the burden of this new Junior Cycle, but the issues will remain for whoever will take over.

I'm wondering is there a data issue here. Shouldn't students have to give consent for their material to be used in such a manner by another school?
Or is it all to be anonymous?
Are there any pieces of work that contain the student's image (video's etc)

Mardy Bum · 25-04-2018 12:19am

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I'm lost here. The ASTI have nothing to do with the SLAR procedures. Where does it say that they must happen during school? We get 40 minutes off every week for them. The ASTI crumbled on this and had nothing to do with the arrangements.

It's workers' conditions so the ASTI are of course going to stand up for what was agreed and is set out in multiple circulars and clarifications. The ASTI didn't crumble on anything to do with SLARs. The Junior Cycle reform as a whole is a different question entirely and I would argue that it was a minority who forced that through rather than the union as a union.

Circular 24/2016 p. 21

Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of the meeting.

Circular 15/2017 p. 26

Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of the meeting. A SLAR meeting should take place in one two-hour session

The Department are quite clear on SLARs. They start inside the timetable, and can overrun. We use some of our timetabled time for this. It's since been clarified that S&S can't be used to cover classes. That is a management/department problem, not a teacher one.

The TUI took the view that the school day on a half day extends to the full day. Which is a crock of nonsense.

That the TUI aren't standing up for its members isn't any of the ASTI's concern.

There is nothing clear there at all. It doesn't say meetings MUST start during school. Those that have classes free can obviously start during school but an English/Irish department with 8 teachers is unlikely to be this lucky and must use their professional time.

Mountainsandh · 25-04-2018 12:29am

evolving_doors wrote: »

I'm wondering is there a data issue here. Shouldn't students have to give consent for their material to be used in such a manner by another school?
Or is it all to be anonymous?
Are there any pieces of work that contain the student's image (video's etc)

I suppose within an educational context this shouldn't really matter, and yet I work with a high proportion of special needs students (and not) whose parents are often not supportive of their child's image being used.

I have had to explain quite clearly to first years that they will indeed be recorded and possibly video-ed for educational purposes, regardless of the parents "consent to photos" signature or lack thereof at the start of the year.

I did this because in previous years when I was already using audio/video as part of learning, the issue arose. It is a conflict or source of tension I really don't need as part of my teaching, yet while parents are often quite happy to let their child plaster their image all over social media, they will react antagonistically to schools recording the child's oral expression in a language.

doc_17 · 25-04-2018 9:01am

SLARs don’t have to start during school time. Nowhere does it say that in the circular.

Benicetomonty · 25-04-2018 1:39pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

There is nothing clear there at all. It doesn't say meetings MUST start during school. Those that have classes free can obviously start during school but an English/Irish department with 8 teachers is unlikely to be this lucky and must use their professional time.

A LIMITED number of meetings MAY RUN beyond school hrs for SOME of the duration of the meeting.

Yes it is clear. Very clear. Meetings may run beyond, but cannot start, outside of school hrs. A limited number of them. Which means the majority should take place entirely within school hrs. For SOME of the duration is not ALL of the duration. Simples.

doc_17 · 25-04-2018 3:44pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

A LIMITED number of meetings MAY RUN beyond school hrs for SOME of the duration of the meeting.

Yes it is clear. Very clear. Meetings may run beyond, but cannot start, outside of school hrs. A limited number of them. Which means the majority should take place entirely within school hrs. For SOME of the duration is not ALL of the duration. Simples.

No. They can start after school ends. How you could even attempt to get 3/4 teachers free for the same two hours during school time to have the meeting without using S&S, which you are not allowed to do, is beyond me

Benicetomonty · 25-04-2018 4:03pm

doc_17 wrote: »

No. They can start after school ends. How you could even attempt to get 3/4 teachers free for the same two hours during school time to have the meeting without using S&S, which you are not allowed to do, is beyond me

No they cant. No reading of the quoted paragraph allows for that inference to take precedence over the other, which is that SLARs happen inside school hrs. They can happen during house exams because teachers can be off for several hrs on days during the exams. There is no other alternative that I can see. But Im not the one who has to visualise such an alternative if one is deemed necessary.

SligoBrewer · 25-04-2018 4:38pm

doc_17 wrote: »

No. They can start after school ends. How you could even attempt to get 3/4 teachers free for the same two hours during school time to have the meeting without using S&S, which you are not allowed to do, is beyond me

It’s not for the full two hours (I’d argue the circular does lay out that the some/most should be fully inside the school day but no point in arguing that) that teachers are needed to relieved for. It’s for a minimum of one class period. How you cover it? I’d say you pay subs out if the school’s budget from teachers who have opted out of S&S.

It was agreed by the department that they start in school. For them to start outside contradicts an agreement made.

SLARs can’t all happen during house exams because there are time limits in place as to when they have to be done by. Business is early May I think, well before house exams.

deiseindublin · 25-04-2018 5:26pm

SligoBrewer wrote: »

The TUI took the view that the school day on a half day extends to the full day. Which is a crock of nonsense.

Absolute crock of s***. I tried arguing that point in my school at the time and all the back up I got from some was that there wouldn't be that many of them. Very convenient that the only example TUI gave of SLARs was a timetabled half day.

I might start a poll here late to see how many school do have a timetabled half day, usually Wed or Fri.

deiseindublin · 25-04-2018 5:28pm

Does anybody have a complete list of when the SLARS happen:

Business - Early May
Maths
Science
...

Mardy Bum · 25-04-2018 5:31pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

doc_17 wrote: »

No. They can start after school ends. How you could even attempt to get 3/4 teachers free for the same two hours during school time to have the meeting without using S&S, which you are not allowed to do, is beyond me

No they cant. No reading of the quoted paragraph allows for that inference to take precedence over the other, which is that SLARs happen inside school hrs. They can happen during house exams because teachers can be off for several hrs on days during the exams. There is no other alternative that I can see. But Im not the one who has to visualise such an alternative if one is deemed necessary.

I'm afraid that is wishful thinking. The circular is purposely ambiguous and unclear. The department are not paying for supervision and S & S is not suppose to be used. If it was it would say so. It doesn't say it must start during school. It says all teachers must be present. Obviously some subjects will be able to run during the day but no where does it say teachers must be given time off to take part in SLARS. The sentence you have quoted means nothing really as there is nothing before or after it with details about how this can be facilitated.

I would love if it was during school btw.

Mountainsandh · 25-04-2018 5:41pm

I wonder how it would pan out for someone (like myself) on job sharing. I am not in school 2 days per week, and am the only teacher of my subject in my school. What if the other schools are having their SLARS on my days off ?

I have regular medical appointments and many commitments on my days off school, it may not be practical for me to attend at all.

Benicetomonty · 25-04-2018 6:05pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I'm afraid that is wishful thinking. The circular is purposely ambiguous and unclear. The department are not paying for supervision and S & S is not suppose to be used. If it was it would say so. It doesn't say it must start during school. It says all teachers must be present. Obviously some subjects will be able to run during the day but no where does it say teachers must be given time off to take part in SLARS. The sentence you have quoted means nothing really as there is nothing before or after it with details about how this can be facilitated.

I would love if it was during school btw.

I agree that it is ambiguous, and no doubt its deliberate. But if it continues to be challenged it will eventually come down to semantics and there is simply no other way to read that section that allows for SLARs to be scheduled outside school time.

I know the JMB are looking for the whole issue to be clarified so Im sure it will be soon. I would expect theyl just push back the dates for when they can be held so that they can happen during house exams. Easiest solution.

SLARS

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