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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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  • #8402
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    iguana wrote: »
    What do we think voter turn-out is actually going to be like? Most of the campaigning is obviously aimed at the undecideds but even referendums touted as having hugely high turnouts still see roughly one third of the electorate not voting. In 1983 less than 54% of the electorate turned out. The 1992 referenda had the third highest ever voter turnout with just over 68% on all three amendments. The abortion referendum in 2002 had a pathetic turnout of less than 43%, which was probably because it was a confusing clusterfuof a proposed amendment. The "fantastic" voter turnout of the marriage equality referendum 3 years ago was 60.52%. I don't like to assume but the odds are that most of the undecideds will stay undecided and not vote. Some of the Yes/No voters will also not vote but it will be mostly undecideds who don't.

    I heard unoficially that requests from new voters (18) in Wicklow to go onto the supplementary are much higher than marriage referendum.
    A friend of mine is a Gardai and he says that there are a huge number of people mainly young people attending the station every day to have forms for the supplementaryregister stamped


  • #8403
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,916 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Wombatman wrote: »
    No more difficult than the Brexit Irish border problem. I believe the Brits are making great strides with a 'technical solution'.

    Maybe women of a certain age could report for testing and tagging before travelling abroad?

    i think the person who thanked that thought you were being serious.


  • #8404
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    i think the person who thanked that thought you were being serious.

    The person that thanked him openly thinks that women should be blocked from travelling abroad to have an abortion. :(


  • #8405
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    I appreciate your change in position on the matter and applaud you actually doing some research on the matter, if only more people who were on the fence or pro-life like yourself.

    I'm not sure if you read my situation as I can't remember seeing you pop up in the thread, but here it is - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106806749&postcount=8130, bear in mind now, I have already had pro-lifers completely disregard the miscarriages my partner suffered and focused on me suggesting I have a vasectomy rather than have legislation put in place to allow my partner the dignity of a safe and legal abortion here.. Kind of felt like I was being blamed for the whole thing.

    So I can only apologize if you are feeling attacked by some posters, as since this thread has been opened we have had an influx of individuals who have had some truly horrific things to say and attempt to pass them off as opinions, or "facts".

    A couple of my friends were going to vote no until they realised voting no would be essentially booting women with uterine abnormalities like my partner to the kerb and denying them the dignity of having a safe and legal abortion performed on them. On another thread, someone recognized my partner's ordeal but is still voting no frankly because it doesn't suit them/appease them.

    This is the kind of mindset that we have been put up against so many times, so apologies for people jumping on you over questions/statements you made and I appreciate your change of stance with the intention to repeal.

    I have no issues whatsoever with abortion being available to your wife. To me that's an open and shut case.


  • #8406
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    I find the argument of being against abortion yourself but voting yes so as to not restrict others from doing it is intellectually dishonest.

    Let's say it was a referendum on legalising FGM. Would people who are against it be fine with voting Yes to allow it, as they would never allow it themselves but respect the rights of others to do it?

    And just saying "they are different" is not an answer - for genuine No voters they feel at least as strongly about abortion as others would about FGM.

    And as I said before, I am going to vote Yes and take responsibility for it - this is not some kind of back handed No argument.


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  • #8407
    OrlaFS2017
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 64 ✭✭OrlaFS2017


    But there isn’t a constitutional right to travel for FGM like there is for abortion so you cannot equate them


  • #8408
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    OrlaFS2017 wrote: »
    But there isn’t a constitutional right to travel for FGM like there is for abortion so you cannot equate them

    That makes no difference to the point. Let's assume there is. De facto there is anyway.

    Why is it that you are all so afraid to directly answer a question like this?

    It's actually a good parallel, as cultures that practice FGM see it as an essential right and an integral part of their culture.

    The only difference I can see is that abortion can get a woman out of a very difficult situation. Not a trivial difference but a difference nonetheless.

    In cultures with FGM not having one will negatively affect the girl's marriage prospects and future prosperity.


  • #8409
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    professore wrote: »
    I find the argument of being against abortion yourself but voting yes so as to not restrict others from doing it is intellectually dishonest.

    Let's say it was a referendum on legalising FGM. Would people who are against it be fine with voting Yes to allow it, as they would never allow it themselves but respect the rights of others to do it?

    And just saying "they are different" is not an answer - for genuine No voters they feel at least as strongly about abortion as others would about FGM.

    And as I said before, I am going to vote Yes and take responsibility for it - this is not some kind of back handed No argument.


    FGM has no medical benefits (that I am aware of) while abortions do so it's a silly question.

    Not only that but where FGM is performed it is not usually at the choice of the girl/woman so it's a ridiculous comparison.


  • #8410
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,916 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    professore wrote: »
    That makes no difference to the point. Let's assume there is. De facto there is anyway.

    Why is it that you are all so afraid to directly answer a question like this?


    because it is a stupid false equivalence.


  • #8411
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    professore wrote: »
    I find the argument of being against abortion yourself but voting yes so as to not restrict others from doing it is intellectually dishonest.

    How is it intellectually dishonest? I would hope not to be in a situation where abortion was on the table, if I was i'm not sure if I would do it, but I have no problem with others doing it if it's the right choice for them.

    I don't take mdma either but if that's what some people are in to I have no objection to them doing it


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  • #8412
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    How is it intellectually dishonest? I would hope not to be in a situation where abortion was on the table, if I was i'm not sure if I would do it, but I have no problem with others doing it if it's the right choice for them.

    I don't take mdma either but if that's what some people are in to I have no objection to them doing it

    If you believe it's wrong to do something yourself - wrong, not just you are not into it - but have no problems enabling others to do that, then that's intellectually dishonest IMO. It's passing the buck. Looking at the youths taking the wheels off the car and not calling the Gardai because "it's not my business what others do"


  • #8413
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #8414
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,811 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    There are some silly comparisons, but I'll bite
    professore wrote: »
    I find the argument of being against abortion yourself but voting yes so as to not restrict others from doing it is intellectually dishonest.
    Using a recent example, SSM. I am against marrying another man because I am not attracted to other men. But I don't want to stop two other men marrying each other if that is what they want. It is their choice to do so should they want it so I think it is wrong to stop them.
    professore wrote: »
    Let's say it was a referendum on legalising FGM. Would people who are against it be fine with voting Yes to allow it, as they would never allow it themselves but respect the rights of others to do it?
    As said above, FGM has no proven health benefit. It is also mostly done without the consent of the woman involved. And morally, I find it barbaric. And outlawing it would be protecting vulerable women in these situations. Therefore, I would vote against it, even though it won't affect me.



    When it comes to voting in a referendum, you shouldn't really vote based solely on how it affects you.


  • #8415
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    amcalester wrote: »
    FGM has no medical benefits (that I am aware of) while abortions do so it's a silly question.

    Not only that but where FGM is performed it is not usually at the choice of the girl/woman so it's a ridiculous comparison.

    The point is about supporting a law in a country that you claim to be against yourself to allow others freedom of choice. Yet everyone is attacking whether or not they are EXACTLY equivalent. That's not the point I'm making.


  • #8416
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    professore wrote: »
    I have no issues whatsoever with abortion being available to your wife. To me that's an open and shut case.

    To you yes, but to others no unfortunately.

    Not sure who you're addressing in the follow-up post about voting yes against your personal beliefs is being intellectually dishonest.

    I am fully against abortion but I don't want my personal beliefs regarding it to stand in the way of allowing women like my partner the dignity of a safe and legal abortion, if anything I would consider it to be intellectually mature to do so.


  • #8417
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #8418
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Dole Scrounging Vegan Crossfitter wrote: »
    There are some silly comparisons, but I'll bite

    Using a recent example, SSM. I am against marrying another man because I am not attracted to other men. But I don't want to stop two other men marrying each other if that is what they want. It is their choice to do so should they want it so I think it is wrong to stop them.
    .

    That's not the same thing.

    In your analogy, if you believed gay marriage was evil and anyone who associated with gay men would burn in hell for all eternity, and you voted for gay marriage so as not to interfere with the rights of others, that would be a better equivalence.

    No one is forcing people to have abortions if the referendum is carried.


  • #8419
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Are you sure about that? Where it is a rite of passage to womanhood, marriage etc, you think every girl is totally against it? I sincerely doubt it.


  • #8420
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    professore wrote: »
    If you believe it's wrong to do something yourself - wrong, not just you are not into it - but have no problems enabling others to do that, then that's intellectually dishonest IMO. It's passing the buck. Looking at the youths taking the wheels off the car and not calling the Gardai because "it's not my business what others do"

    But just because I believe something is wrong, doesn't mean it is wrong though it's just my opinion, and why should my opinion on how others live their lives be a deciding factor.

    (I don't think abortion is wrong btw)


  • #8421
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    To you yes, but to others no unfortunately.

    Not sure who you're addressing in the follow-up post about voting yes against your personal beliefs is being intellectually dishonest.

    I am fully against abortion but I don't want my personal beliefs regarding it to stand in the way of allowing women like my partner the dignity of a safe and legal abortion, if anything I would consider it to be intellectually mature to do so.

    I see your point - a rock and a hard place, right?

    If the choice was between allowing abortions in medical cases for women like your partner, FFA and a more liberal regime how would you vote in that case?


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  • #8422
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,916 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    professore wrote: »
    Are you sure about that? Where it is a rite of passage to womanhood, marriage etc, you think every girl is totally against it? I sincerely doubt it.

    they are not of an age where they can give consent.


  • #8423
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    But just because I believe something is wrong, doesn't mean it is wrong though it's just my opinion, and why should my opinion on how others live their lives be a deciding factor.

    (I don't think abortion is wrong btw)

    That's how democracy works. So to use my analogy, would you vote to legalise FGM in Ireland?


  • #8424
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    they are not of an age where they can give consent.

    Neither is an unborn baby. Also males are circumcised at birth for non medical reasons, babies are baptised, etc Plenty of life changing stuff happens without consent.


  • #8425
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    professore wrote: »
    That's how democracy works. So to use my analogy, would you vote to legalise FGM in Ireland?

    I'm aware of how democracy works, I'm saying it's not intellectually dishonest to say you wouldn't do something yourself but will vote in favour of others being allowed to do it.

    I'd vote against FGM in cases where it was performed without consent/on minors or both. Though how this is relevant, is beyond me.


  • #8426
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    I'm aware of how democracy works, I'm saying it's not intellectually dishonest to say you wouldn't do something yourself but will vote in favour of others being allowed to do it.

    I'd vote against FGM in cases where it was performed without consent/on minors or both. Though how this is relevant, is beyond me.

    Well at least your position is consistent. So therefore not intellectually dishonest.


  • #8427
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    professore wrote: »
    I see your point - a rock and a hard place, right?

    If the choice was between allowing abortions in medical cases for women like your partner, FFA and a more liberal regime how would you vote in that case?

    I'd still go for the liberal regime, there can be many legitimate reasons for a woman to seek an abortion, just because I don't see the reasons as legitimate, does not mean they are not legitimate.


  • #8428
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    I'd still go for the liberal regime, there can be many legitimate reasons for a woman to seek an abortion, just because I don't see the reasons as legitimate, does not mean they are not legitimate.

    Fair enough, I have to say if it was any more liberal than is proposed I would probably vote No. Although it is difficult as most of the reasons I would vote Yes would be blocked off to women like my daughters.

    By voting Yes you are responsible and complicit in what you are voting for, regardless if you don't directly do that thing yourself.

    It really is a difficult question.


  • #8429
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    professore wrote: »
    By voting Yes you are responsible and complicit in what you are voting for, regardless if you don't directly do that thing yourself.

    Nah, not at all.

    I am not responsible nor complicit in what I am voting for, if that's the case, No voters are responsible for refusing women rights that are offered to them in other civilised countries, which I do not believe they are directly responsible or complicit in.


  • #8430
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    I have to be honest and say I am getting a bit sick of the whole debate at this point - I wish the referendum would happen tomorrow so we can all have done with it.

    I’ve had my fill of the sniping and malice being shown on both sides now - I especially don’t like the attempts to silence the No side.

    You can’t claim to be pro choice if you then mock and ridicule those who choose a different side to you. You cannot attempt to silence them or try to stop them campaigning even if you don’t like the way they go about it. That’s not what being pro choice is about.


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  • #8431
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I have to be honest and say I am getting a bit sick of the whole debate at this point - I wish the referendum would happen tomorrow so we can all have done with it.

    I’ve had my fill of the sniping and malice being shown on both sides now - I especially don’t like the attempts to silence the No side.

    You can’t claim to be pro choice if you then mock and ridicule those who choose a different side to you. You cannot attempt to silence them or try to stop them campaigning even if you don’t like the way they go about it. That’s not what being pro choice is about.

    If they are campaigning via the usage of falsehood and lies, they do deserve to have those falsehood and lies outed publicly in order to encourage honest and genuine campaigns.


This discussion has been closed.
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