The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

AtomicHorror · 24-04-2018 08:49AM

applehunter wrote: »

He continues to play a blinder.

He should be pissing off people considering the stance his is taking. That is the nature of a contentious issue.

The guy knows his stuff and will argue with anyone.

The YES side on the other hand don't seem to have to answer to anyone.

Public debates ASAP, please.

If the dictionary definition of "insufferable" somehow manifested as a corporeal, anthropomorphic being, it would be indistinguishable from McGuirk.

Nettle Soup · 24-04-2018 08:51AM

ELM327 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Jaysus. What about those who think it's murder. Far from a non issue

What about those who think they are an onion.
People can think they are whatever they want, but it doesn't change reality.

What happens when you peel the onion?

NuMarvel · 24-04-2018 08:54AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I am beginning to think he knows pro life is losing and he is trying to rally the base in order to get a no vote as high as possible.

That's probably the most likely scenario. The only alternatives I can think of are a) he's a 12th level genius and this is all part of some elaborate plan that no one else can see, or b) he's lost the plot entirely.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Kinda hilarious in ways that someone who encouraged safe digital sex with gloves about 15 years ago while involved in student politics is so extremely anti student and illiberal on sex now. He made his name in student politics. Now he wants to f*ck students over.

I bet he doesn't bring that up on the doorstep during canvasses

Zubeneschamali · 24-04-2018 08:59AM

Deleted User wrote: »

What about those who think it's murder.

They are wrong - this is not an opinion, it's a fact. Murder is an entirely different crime than abortion*.

(*) in Ireland, but not abortion for Irish women in England, which is not a crime at all but a Constitutional right.

ELM327 · 24-04-2018 09:03AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd say they are wrong personally. It's essentially a philosophical debate about when a human becomes a human. There's good reason why people all over the world still protest either side of this. I'm all for voting yes but belittling the argument and claiming its a non-issue is niave at best.

It is a non issue.
The 8th is like the laws in the middle east, imposing a culture observed by some, and in the case of the 8th a minority (less than 30% if polls are to be believed), on all others.

Have your own morality. Hell, don't even drink or smoke or drive fast or leave the house. Go to Church every morning. Give half your wages to charity. Do whatever floats your boat. But don't enforce it on society at large and endanger the health of women everywhere to do so - at the cost of your supposed morality.

This is why I have such an issue with the NO side being called pro life. They are not pro life, they are pro birth. It doesn't matter if they enforce death on a mother of 3 - once the child is born that's all that matters.

I'm cautiously optimistic of a yes vote at this stage but polls as we know cannot be trusted. I'm also cautious of the militant side of the repeal side too. I'm about as far for repeal as is logically possible, yet I was chased out of the facebook group for saying that a women's partner should be involved in the decision if there was a relationship. Similar to any large decision in a relationship which affects one party more than the other. Angry hairy feminists are more damaging to the yes campaign than anything else tbh and once that sort of ridiculousness is kept out of the campaign we should have abortions safe free and legal in the near future.

#trustourwomen
#repealthe8th
#togetherforyes

volchitsa · 24-04-2018 09:48AM

ELM327 wrote: »

It I'm also cautious of the militant side of the repeal side too. I'm about as far for repeal as is logically possible, yet I was chased out of the facebook group for saying that a women's partner should be involved in the decision if there was a relationship. Similar to any large decision in a relationship which affects one party more than the other. Angry hairy feminists are more damaging to the yes campaign than anything else tbh and once that sort of ridiculousness is kept out of the campaign we should have abortions safe free and legal in the near future.

I'm a bit concerned that you feel "attacked" like that, elm (I don't know anything about the incident except what you've said just now, just to be clear) but it's such an emotional issue that there can be a massive gap and misunderstandings over quite strange issues sometimes.

Just to take your example, I'd agree completely that a partner is always going to be part of any decision, but the question is if whether they should have a legal position, because that would be really problematic.

Because when it comes down to it, if the partner's legal right is limited to being informed, that's one thing (though what if he's not the father?) but if you mean he has a right to have a say, then how exactly is that right going to be exercised? By tying the woman down so she can't abort? Or indeed by tying her down so an abortion can carried out against her wishes? Or do you see this right as only a one way thing, where the partner would want to stop the woman? That isn't always the case, IMO.

And yet I can see how it seems, intuitively, correct that the partner should have a say. But it's nothing like buying a car or even changing jobs, it's the woman's body, and it's hard to see how that can be legally given into the control of someone else.

It's one reason why the repeal side is probably not in the (with hindsight) easier position of the Marref campaigners, because it's just not a simple position to get across, and perhaps there is no equivalent feelgood factor either. But we can't go adding things in that would inevitably lead to the sorts of abuses we have actually seen with the current laws, just because it seems like a good way to reassure the undecided.

optogirl · 24-04-2018 09:50AM

ELM327 wrote: »

It is a non issue.
The 8th is like the laws in the middle east, imposing a culture observed by some, and in the case of the 8th a minority (less than 30% if polls are to be believed), on all others.

Have your own morality. Hell, don't even drink or smoke or drive fast or leave the house. Go to Church every morning. Give half your wages to charity. Do whatever floats your boat. But don't enforce it on society at large and endanger the health of women everywhere to do so - at the cost of your supposed morality.

This is why I have such an issue with the NO side being called pro life. They are not pro life, they are pro birth. It doesn't matter if they enforce death on a mother of 3 - once the child is born that's all that matters.

I'm cautiously optimistic of a yes vote at this stage but polls as we know cannot be trusted. I'm also cautious of the militant side of the repeal side too. I'm about as far for repeal as is logically possible, yet I was chased out of the facebook group for saying that a women's partner should be involved in the decision if there was a relationship. Similar to any large decision in a relationship which affects one party more than the other. Angry hairy feminists are more damaging to the yes campaign than anything else tbh and once that sort of ridiculousness is kept out of the campaign we should have abortions safe free and legal in the near future.

#trustourwomen
#repealthe8th
#togetherforyes

Angry hairy feminists? FFS

SusieBlue · 24-04-2018 09:52AM

I can see the point being made. The extremes on both sides are hurting both campaigns, somewhat.

garbo speaks · 24-04-2018 10:10AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Murder is an entirely different crime than abortion.

Nonsense.

ohnonotgmail · 24-04-2018 10:11AM

garbo speaks wrote: »

Nonsense.

can you point to your source on this?

January · 24-04-2018 10:12AM

garbo speaks wrote: »

Nonsense.

That's your only rebuttal? Abortion is not murder if it was it would be illegal everywhere like actual murder is.

baylah17 · 24-04-2018 10:14AM

garbo speaks wrote: »

Nonsense.

Something you are an expert in

Posting Nonsense:mad:

volchitsa · 24-04-2018 10:15AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

A lot of older people who voted yes to insert the 8th amendment are now voting yes to repeal it. Because they have seen the impact

I was a first year university student then, though I didn't actually vote (wasn't registered in the right place for various reasons) but at the time I was really quite unsure anyway, and would quite possibly have voted yes, because that's how we had been brought up, we had SPUC coming into schools with awful videos and we were given little badges in the shape of tiny cute little feet - does anyone else remember those?

I think younger people now don't realize the degree of brainwashing the whole country was complicit in. It took me years, and some hard knocks, to realize that that is what it really was.

I think - I hope - that a lot of people my age and slightly older will have a very different mindset to their views back in 1983.

I think the risk of a no vote may be more among younger people who haven't yet been confronted with all the terrible effects of the 8th on pregnancy care in general, may be influenced by US-funded prolife marketing of abortion as being nothing but a kind of birth control for the lazy and promiscuous, when in fact the problem in Ireland is much wider.

I really hope I'm wrong, and that all age groups have matured and moved on.

Ken. · 24-04-2018 10:15AM

Mod-Garbo speaks do not post in this thread again. Reason- Refusing to engage and general dickery.

volchitsa · 24-04-2018 10:20AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

I can see the point being made. The extremes on both sides are hurting both campaigns, somewhat.

What worries me is what is the "extreme" on the pro choice side?
(I mean the real extreme, not the made-up "abortion until 5 minutes before birth because the woman wants promotion at work" extreme that the prolife side likes to portray)

I can't see one, so unless I'm the extreme (and I probably am but then I don't think I'm extreme at all, is the point) it worries me that people can't see that pro choice is, in reality, the middle ground between forced abortion and forced pregnancy.

24-04-2018 10:50AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They are wrong - this is not an opinion, it's a fact. Murder is an entirely different crime than abortion*.

(*) in Ireland, but not abortion for Irish women in England, which is not a crime at all but a Constitutional right.

murder
ˈməːdə/
noun
noun: murder; plural noun: murders
1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

If you believe the unborn is a human being, then it is murder

gmisk · 24-04-2018 10:51AM

volchitsa wrote: »

I think the risk of a no vote may be more among younger people who haven't yet been confronted with all the terrible effects of the 8th on pregnancy care in general, may be influenced by US-funded prolife marketing of abortion as being nothing but a kind of birth control for the lazy and promiscuous, when in fact the problem in Ireland is much wider.

All the polls etc point to the complete opposite with young people 18-24 being most likely to vote for repeal.

Edit.
As per Irish Times poll.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/irish-times-poll-public-favour-repeal-of-eighth-despite-slip-in-support-1.3467503
Support for repeal is strongest among younger voters (67 per cent among 18-24-year-olds; 58 per cent among 25-34-year-olds)

....... · 24-04-2018 10:53AM

This post has been deleted.

ohnonotgmail · 24-04-2018 10:54AM

Deleted User wrote: »

If you believe the unborn is a human being, then it is murder

Murder is a matter of fact not a matter of opinion. Abortion is not murder. If it was the law would treat both the same. It doesn't

SusieBlue · 24-04-2018 10:56AM

Deleted User wrote: »

If you believe the unborn is a human being, then it is murder

Then please, feel free to never have an abortion yourself.
But don't assume you should be able to inflict those morals and beliefs on the whole of society, at the expense of women's health and substandard maternity care.
We don't all agree and shouldn't be restricted by other people's opinions.

Edward M · 24-04-2018 10:56AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you believe the unborn is a human being, then it is murder

You can believe what you like, but the law doesent agree with you even now!

amcalester · 24-04-2018 10:57AM

Edward M wrote: »

You can believe what you like, but the law doesent agree with you even now!

Plus murder is a legal term so belief isn't relevant.

ELM327 · 24-04-2018 11:01AM

volchitsa wrote: »

I'm a bit concerned that you feel "attacked" like that, elm (I don't know anything about the incident except what you've said just now, just to be clear) but it's such an emotional issue that there can be a massive gap and misunderstandings over quite strange issues sometimes.

Just to take your example, I'd agree completely that a partner is always going to be part of any decision, but the question is if whether they should have a legal position, because that would be really problematic.

Because when it comes down to it, if the partner's legal right is limited to being informed, that's one thing (though what if he's not the father?) but if you mean he has a right to have a say, then how exactly is that right going to be exercised? By tying the woman down so she can't abort? Or indeed by tying her down so an abortion can carried out against her wishes? Or do you see this right as only a one way thing, where the partner would want to stop the woman? That isn't always the case, IMO.

And yet I can see how it seems, intuitively, correct that the partner should have a say. But it's nothing like buying a car or even changing jobs, it's the woman's body, and it's hard to see how that can be legally given into the control of someone else.

It's one reason why the repeal side is probably not in the (with hindsight) easier position of the Marref campaigners, because it's just not a simple position to get across, and perhaps there is no equivalent feelgood factor either. But we can't go adding things in that would inevitably lead to the sorts of abuses we have actually seen with the current laws, just because it seems like a good way to reassure the undecided.

I'm not talking about giving an equal choice to the man, or even making anything a legal requirement at all. All I'm saying (and all I said in that group) was that if it was a relationship then it's a large decision and should be discussed as a couple. Obviously as it's the woman's body the woman has the casting vote.

My concern is that - I as a strong repeal voter - was discouraged by the militants, what will it do for the on the fence voter?

optogirl wrote: »

Angry hairy feminists? FFS

You know what I meant it's a turn of phrase.
I'm talking for the people that witchhunted me out of the group for having a slight inclination that in a relationship two partners talk about large issues together.

volchitsa wrote: »

What worries me is what is the "extreme" on the pro choice side?
(I mean the real extreme, not the made-up "abortion until 5 minutes before birth because the woman wants promotion at work" extreme that the prolife side likes to portray)

I can't see one, so unless I'm the extreme (and I probably am but then I don't think I'm extreme at all, is the point) it worries me that people can't see that pro choice is, in reality, the middle ground between forced abortion and forced pregnancy.

It's not the extreme of thought, moreso the attacking of people who agree with them but express a slight inclination that a male deserves to be a (minor) party to the discussion.

Your last statement is correct, which is why I am pro choice. But a small part of me (thankfully a very small emotive reaction towards the treatment I was given) woudl like to vote no to spite those people. And that is the worry. Every yes vote is precious and we don't want to turn people off by our antics. Leave that to the no side!!

professore · 24-04-2018 11:02AM

There is quite a good chance that voting repeal will lead to no change ....

Wait until all those rural TDs have to be seen to be voting for abortion in the Dail ....

Have said all along that repeal was a stupid way to approach this, amending it to have basic outlines about when it is and isn't OK to have an abortion and let the public vote and put it in the constitution was the way to go. Now you have no idea what you are voting for if you vote yes. You know for certain if you vote no.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/no-guarantee-a-yes-vote-will-lead-to-abortion-up-to-12-weeks-watchdog-36838099.html

The booklet states the legal effect of a Yes vote would be that the Oireachtas has full authority "to pass laws regulating the termination of pregnancy".

"These laws need not limit the availability of termination to circumstances where there is a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother. Any law may be changed by the Oireachtas," the commission says.

It also reinforces the fact that TDs and senators may not be able to reach agreement on what type of legislation should be passed, in which case the existing laws will apply even if the Eighth Amendment is repealed.

NuMarvel · 24-04-2018 11:02AM

Deleted User wrote: »

If you believe the unborn is a human being, then it is murder

But if someone believes abortion is murder, why the silence about the thousands of women who travel? Or the hundreds who import pills?

In fact, some "pro lifers" have gone so far as to say the law should be changed so that women aren't criminalised if they have an illegal abortion. How is that compatible with the belief that abortion is murder?

However you look at it, society doesn't regard abortion as being the equivalent of murder. There is political will and public support for the prosecution of murderers. The same cannot be said for women who have illegal abortions.

ohnonotgmail · 24-04-2018 11:04AM

professore wrote: »

There is quite a good chance that voting repeal will lead to no change ....

Wait until all those rural TDs have to be seen to be voting for abortion in the Dail ....

Have said all along that repeal was a stupid way to approach this, amending it to have basic outlines about when it is and isn't OK to have an abortion and let the public vote and put it in the constitution was the way to go. Now you have no idea what you are voting for if you vote yes. You know for certain if you vote no.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/no-guarantee-a-yes-vote-will-lead-to-abortion-up-to-12-weeks-watchdog-36838099.html

The booklet states the legal effect of a Yes vote would be that the Oireachtas has full authority "to pass laws regulating the termination of pregnancy".

"These laws need not limit the availability of termination to circumstances where there is a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother. Any law may be changed by the Oireachtas," the commission says.

It also reinforces the fact that TDs and senators may not be able to reach agreement on what type of legislation should be passed, in which case the existing laws will apply even if the Eighth Amendment is repealed.

Even if no law is passed afterwards repeal of the 8th will have a positive effect on maternity care.

baylah17 · 24-04-2018 11:04AM

Deleted User wrote: »

If you believe the unborn is a human being, then it is murder

But we know with certainty that the 12 week old fetus is NOT a human being, so thats cleared that up

ELM327 · 24-04-2018 11:05AM

professore wrote: »

There is quite a good chance that voting repeal will lead to no change ....

Wait until all those rural TDs have to be seen to be voting for abortion in the Dail ....

Have said all along that repeal was a stupid way to approach this, amending it to have basic outlines about when it is and isn't OK to have an abortion and let the public vote and put it in the constitution was the way to go. Now you have no idea what you are voting for if you vote yes. You know for certain if you vote no.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/no-guarantee-a-yes-vote-will-lead-to-abortion-up-to-12-weeks-watchdog-36838099.html

The booklet states the legal effect of a Yes vote would be that the Oireachtas has full authority "to pass laws regulating the termination of pregnancy".

"These laws need not limit the availability of termination to circumstances where there is a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother. Any law may be changed by the Oireachtas," the commission says.

It also reinforces the fact that TDs and senators may not be able to reach agreement on what type of legislation should be passed, in which case the existing laws will apply even if the Eighth Amendment is repealed.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Even if no law is passed afterwards repeal of the 8th will have a positive effect on maternity care.

+1, and this for me is the most important part of the whole referendum.

24-04-2018 11:10AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The moment a fetus becomes a human is entirely subjective, hence why this is so contentious.

ohnonotgmail · 24-04-2018 11:11AM

Deleted User wrote: »

The moment a fetus becomes a human is entirely subjective, hence why this is so contentious.

it is not contentious legally. Legally a foetus is not a person.

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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