The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Smertrius · 21-04-2018 03:42PM

usa, UK, Australia, Norway, Russia, Asia have abortion is legal but in Ireland abortion is illegal

pleas advice · 21-04-2018 03:44PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Not sure if my perspective could be useful to you but if you used any product from the meat, vegetable, paper or medical industry for example you likely ended life. And sometimes in barely imaginable numbers....

I like you, Nozz. But can you stop with this disingenuous line of reasoning.
You know the above aren't human life, you know the fetuses we are talking about here are. Human life, whether you are willing to call them 'Human' or not

pleas advice · 21-04-2018 03:49PM

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Trust Women.

Presumably you will not be rushing out to seek an abortion after the 8th is repealed. The majority of women will be doing likewise.

Do you trust women from England and Wales? Where there is more than one abortion for every four live births.

splinter65 · 21-04-2018 03:50PM

pleas advice wrote: »

I like you, Nozz. But can you stop with this disingenuous line of reasoning.
You know the above aren't human life, you know the fetuses we are talking about here are. Human life, whether you are willing to call them 'Human' or not

Human beings they are. Human beings. But because they’re tiny and at the mercy of their mother then they have no rights and can be swatted away like that blue bottle you just squished in the kitchen.

dudara · 21-04-2018 03:55PM

pleas advice wrote: »

Do you trust women from England and Wales? Where there is more than one abortion for every four live births.

Those figures actually make me more determined to get the 8th repealed. Those figures tell me that a relatively significant amount of women have abortions. It is happening. It is neeed and it is wanted. For a multitude of reasons that vary from woman to woman.

I believe it’s wrong to take the position that this is abnormal. Women have abortions. They’ve been doing it for millennia. It’s not for everyone, but enough people turn to that option. It’s time for our society to tackle this openly, rather than pushing it away, out of sight.

robarmstrong · 21-04-2018 03:57PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

@horseburger

You haven't lied. You haven't given your own opinion on anything, nor posted anything of substance for us to determine if YOU have lied.

We've asked you countless times, even myself a few days ago had to ask you three times what you though,long before this latest 3 page back and forth between you and rob, to which you replied, but edited out the question.

I really hope you get an answer to this, I tried so hard to get him/her to comment on/give an opinion/discuss the pro-life campaign's inaccurate and misleading statements and posters and instead was met with an infantile response over and over again to the point where they're just on ignore now, they clearly have no interest in genuinely engaging or giving their honest comments/opinions on what has been asked numerous times and will instead deflect and ask what inaccurate statements HE made.

Really doesn't add anything to the discussion and if anything just dampens the PLC that little bit more that their advocates can't respond to queries as such.

I had a great engaging discussion with AnneFrank who initially was either undecided or pro-life (sorry, I can't remember!) and I hope they come off with a bit of extra knowledge that in situations like my own, my partner and I are being legitimately denied an abortion because medical professionals feel that she does not meet the criteria set out originally in the 8th, instead will have to constantly miscarry due to where the baby implants.

Voting no would continue to deny her access to a safe, clinical abortion and instead reduce her to playing the waiting game when it comes to when her waters will rupture prematurely and the perfectly healthy fetus will pass away. There is no definite medical presence around her if and when she miscarries whereas if we knew where the baby implanted we could have an abortion before the miscarriage came into play. I do not think it is fair to put that on her and deny her that right.

thee glitz · 21-04-2018 04:16PM

pitifulgod wrote: »

So do you not trust women if they choose to have an abortion? Yes, we do.

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Trust women

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Trust Women.

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Trusting and valuing women is another great thing.

BabysCoffee wrote: »

I will vote Yes and let mothers protect their unborn. I trust women.

Trust women what?

pitifulgod wrote: »

Thousands of women travel abroad every year, our abortion rate is actually higher than prior to the 8th.

There wasn't any Ryanair in 1983. Are you suggesting that the 8th has lead to more abortions?

captbarnacles wrote: »

To me if people really believed it was killing they would be trying to repeal the 13th amendment and demanding women be prosecuted for importing abortion pills.

That wouldn't be very feasible - it would be more efficient to target the suppliers, still not easy though.

captbarnacles wrote: »

As I posted yesterday the massive concern they have for the unborn always seems to directly contrast with the massive lack of concern for everyone else.

Makes it difficult to believe they really care at all.

It's not only possible, but reality, that many concerned for both woman and baby (love both!) will vote No due to the proposed legislation.

Smertrius · 21-04-2018 04:26PM

i still saying yes because for freedom and i hate religion

thee glitz · 21-04-2018 04:37PM

amcalester wrote: »

Voting Yes does not necessarily mean unrestricted abortion up to 12 weeks.

True, but unlikely - how would that play out? If the vote is to repeal, with legislation for 12 weeks no reason required abortion in the proposed legislation, then it would be politically difficult to defend not implementing it.

robarmstrong wrote: »

Voting for repeal would be voting to support people like my partner who does not fall under that FFA category or the physical health to the mother category (at the moment), who are left with no alternative due to the restrictions in place. A vote to repeal isn't just this whole 12 week on demand nonsense, it's helping people like us.

It isn't fair that my partner has to continually miscarry (based on the baby implanting in the wrong area) instead of being granted a legal abortion in this country.

Sorry for your troubles. While every individual case can't be legislated for, I do think it would be possible to help your partner and you better without resorting to unrestricted abortion.

BabysCoffee wrote: »

Heart breaking

https://evoke.ie/2018/04/18/news/irish-news/irish-couples-heartbreak-fatal-foetal-abnormality

So what to do about it - allow abortion in the case of FFA and others where reasonably deemed to be required, or allow for any reason?

thee glitz · 21-04-2018 04:42PM

amdublin wrote: »

Out canvassing today in a working class/inner city area of Dublin.

Not a lot of doors answered
Of those answered not a lot of voters
Of those voting 80 to 90% are No's

We must avoid complacency. We need every Yes voter out on the day. It's not won yet.

Obviously there are other areas where the results will swing in the complete other direction.

If you think you're having trouble in the inner city, wait til you get to rural areas... Thanks for sharing.

robarmstrong · 21-04-2018 04:50PM

thee glitz wrote: »

Sorry for your troubles. While every individual case can't be legislated for, I do think it would be possible to help your partner and you better without resorting to unrestricted abortion.

I appreciate your thoughts, unfortunately there is no other possible help for us that doesn't involve repealing the 8th and bringing in legislation for unrestricted abortion, she does not qualify for the current requirements and would not unless the 8th is repealed and the restrictions are lifted.

thee glitz · 21-04-2018 05:03PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

I appreciate your thoughts, unfortunately there is no other possible help for us that doesn't involve repealing the 8th and bringing in legislation for unrestricted abortion, she does not qualify for the current requirements and would not unless the 8th is repealed and the restrictions are lifted.

You're welcome. I recognise why the 8th would need to be repealed, but not why all restrictions would need to be lifted.

BarleySweets · 21-04-2018 05:05PM

thee glitz wrote: »

It's not only possible, but reality, that many concerned for both woman and baby (love both!) will vote No due to the proposed legislation.

You do realize that a No vote saves no babies, right?

No matter how much you pray and wish and hope, those abortions are going to happen. You have no control whatsoever regarding those abortions and your opinion is yours alone.

We’re not voting on whether abortion should happen, and we’re not voting on whether we endorse abortion; we are voting on whether we should allow Irish women to avail of local services, from their regular doctors. Services that they are currently availing of in foreign countries like the UK, Italy, Spain, & France.

baylah17 · 21-04-2018 05:09PM

splinter65 wrote: »

pleas advice wrote: »

I like you, Nozz. But can you stop with this disingenuous line of reasoning.
You know the above aren't human life, you know the fetuses we are talking about here are. Human life, whether you are willing to call them 'Human' or not

Human beings they are. Human beings. But because they’re tiny and at the mercy of their mother then they have no rights and can be swatted away like that blue bottle you just squished in the kitchen.

Nope
They are not human beings
Get over it and move on

gctest50 · 21-04-2018 05:10PM

The country needs a hero like Dr. Henry Morgentaler

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/05/30/world/americas/henry-morgentaler-abortion-doctor-in-canada-dies-at-90.html

robarmstrong · 21-04-2018 05:13PM

thee glitz wrote: »

You're welcome. I recognise why the 8th would need to be repealed, but not why all restrictions would need to be lifted.

To be honest, we're on the same page, I'm against abortion but what am I meant to do? My partner has an medically diagnosed abnormality that doesn't affect her health or the babies health during pregnancy, the baby will be developing absolutely fine, but if they've implanted in the wrong area of her uterus they will develop perfectly healthy but the sac will rupture and the baby will unfortunately pass. So I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, against abortion but unfortunately I need and want my partner to have legal access to it here in her own country without having to travel.

We've been told no, so now despite my views on abortion, I must vote to repeal, as otherwise it'll be a vicious cycle of implantation, hoping the baby has implanted in the right place, if not, prepare for miscarriage. It doesn't ever get easier but at least with legal abortion we'll be better off.

BarleySweets · 21-04-2018 05:13PM

thee glitz wrote: »

You're welcome. I recognise why the 8th would need to be repealed, but not why all restrictions would need to be lifted.

He told you why already: due to the 8th, Irish doctors are bound to protect the life of the unborn over and above giving accurate information to the pregnant woman. In Rob’s wife’s case, even if they know she’s going to miscarry, they won’t tell her in case she chooses to travel abroad to abort. They also don’t consider this condition as eligible to be considered FFA. Leaving her to carry the baby for weeks/months, experiencing a painful and non-normal pregnancy, until an inevitable miscarriage.

That pain and plight is avoidable, but medical help is denied for her due to the 8th.

nozzferrahhtoo · 21-04-2018 05:16PM

pleas advice wrote: »

I like you, Nozz. But can you stop with this disingenuous line of reasoning.

It is nothing of the sort. It is rather the first step in a large piece of reasoning. To get more nuance added to the "ending a life" mantra.

The goal is to show there is life everywhere, and we value different types of life in different ways for different reasons.

The goal therefore is to precisely identify what it is about "Human life" exactly that we value, or should value. Merely identifying it with the taxonomy name "Human life" just begs that question, without remotely answering it.

So when one digs further and says "ok so why should we value human life at all then?" one gets down to attributes and characteristics that are genuinely worth valuing. And the disadvantage here for the anti-choice campaigner is that they are PRECISELY the characteristics and attributes that a fetus at 12-16 weeks lacks. Not just partially lacks but ENTIRELY lacks.

If my reasoning is faulty then fault it. But merely asking me to "stop" it suggests this is not something you can do. And one should be wary when one is more interested in silencing a line of reasoning rather than rebutting it.

pleas advice wrote: »

You know the above aren't human life

Exactly. I do. But just like "life" can be broken down into more interesting and more relevant sub categories..... so too can "Human life". And there are different attributes at every stage of the human life cycle. Simply saying "it is human life" begs the question and just turns into assumption the very thing we should be querying in the first place.

It would be like me asking about the concepts of property and possession, and people answering me by pointing to borders on a map.

thee glitz · 21-04-2018 05:18PM

BarleySweets wrote: »

You do realize that a No vote saves no babies, right?

No matter how much you pray and wish and hope, those abortions are going to happen. You have no control whatsoever regarding those abortions and your opinion is yours alone.

We’re not voting on whether abortion should happen, and we’re not voting on whether we endorse abortion; we are voting on whether we should allow Irish women to avail of local services, from their regular doctors. Services that they are currently availing of in foreign countries like the UK, Italy, Spain, & France.

How are we not voting on whether we endorse abortion

?

I'm far from convinced that the 8th doesn't save lives - why is the relative instance of women having abortions done in England or Wales giving Irish addresses much lower than that for locals? We're well entitled to make decisions for ourselves without reference to the UK or anywhere else.

nozzferrahhtoo · 21-04-2018 05:18PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Human beings they are. Human beings. But because they’re tiny and at the mercy of their mother then they have no rights and can be swatted away like that blue bottle you just squished in the kitchen.

Now who is being disingenuous? You are replying to a post falsely accusing me of using a disingenuous line of reasoning and then offering a very disingenuous one of your own.

The reasoning I have offered, which has not been rebutted here except to ask that it be silenced, has absolutely, entirely and completely NOTHING to do with A) the size of the fetus or

the pregnant woman's "mercy".

The reasons I have offered as to why there is no coherent basis for thinking such a fetus should have rights are MUCH more nuanced, elaborate, coherent and credible than that.

Smertrius · 21-04-2018 05:34PM

what if woman can't afford to have a child because she has no job and she is a student, you forcing her to keep the baby because of saying no this is against free will of choice.

BarleySweets · 21-04-2018 05:35PM

thee glitz wrote: »

How are we not voting on whether we endorse abortion ?

You can pretend that your vote has any meaning you like. It’s really simple, I even explained it in really easy to understand language but I’ll try again, as I said in the post you replied to: those abortions will happen whether you vote Yes or No. All your No vote will achieve is causing hassle for the women involved, because they need to travel to a foreign country as opposed to discussing their situation with their own local doctor in an Irish clinic.

Your No vote saves no babies and prevents no abortions and if you think it will you are only codding yourself.

You are not being asked to endorse abortion in this referendum. You are being asked to allow women who are currently legally bound to avail of a service in a foreign country, to avail of that service here in Ireland.

I'm far from convinced that the 8th doesn't save lives - why is the relative instance of women having abortions done in England or Wales giving Irish addresses much lower than that for locals? We're well entitled to make decisions for ourselves without reference to the UK or anywhere else.

Regarding addresses, who would bother giving their Irish address in a foreign country for a matter such as this? We all know dozens of people that live and work in the UK, if you could check in that kind of detail you’ll find friends using local UK addresses. Not that it’s any of your business.

As for well entitled to make decisions for ourselves - LOL - why don’t you offer the women of Ireland this courtesy?!

Anyway, you have no say whether these abortions happens, like I said, unless it’s you having an abortion, your input in that decision is not required. Those abortions will happen - just in a foreign country. Please vote Yes and let Irish women avail of these services at home with their own doctors.

pitifulgod · 21-04-2018 05:46PM

thee glitz wrote: »

How are we not voting on whether we endorse abortion ?

I'm far from convinced that the 8th doesn't save lives - why is the relative instance of women having abortions done in England or Wales giving Irish addresses much lower than that for locals? We're well entitled to make decisions for ourselves without reference to the UK or anywhere else.

At the moment, restrictive abortion regimes Eg what we have. Has the effect of increase second trimester abortions. The abortion still happens, just at a far later stage. You have to arrange to travel, sometimes you have to save. Other route that people go in that scenario is to acquire abortion pills and have an abortion with no medical support. These scenarios both occur at the moment.

Only people you prevent from having abortions are those without fiscals means to fund one or somebody who can't travel. That's a pretty inhumane scenario that is created with eighth.

Blahblah2012 · 21-04-2018 05:50PM

BarleySweets wrote: »

All your No vote will achieve is causing hassle for the women involved, because they need to travel to a foreign country as opposed to discussing their situation with their own local doctor in an Irish clinic.

Hassle? Sure why bother wearing a condom? Sure we can always go to the local GP and get the foetus crushed, ground up...and sucked out with a hoover.

WHAT''S UP DOC???? Any chance you can take care of a LITTLE PROBLEM for me?

BarleySweets wrote: »

Your No vote saves no babies and prevents no abortions and if you think it will you are only codding yourself.

YEAH YEAH

robarmstrong · 21-04-2018 05:53PM

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

Hassle? Sure why bother wearing a condom? Sure we can always go to the local GP and get the foetus crushed, ground up...and sucked out with a hoover.

WHAT''S UP DOC???? Any chance you can take care of a LITTLE PROBLEM for me?

YEAH YEAH

What a fantastically mature addition to the discussion, thank you for enlightening us all. Just when it gets back to being a respectful, mature and constructive discussion, great.

Blahblah2012 · 21-04-2018 05:54PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

What a fantastically mature addition to the discussion, thank you for enlightening us all. Just when it gets back to being a respectful, mature and constructive discussion, great.

Truth hurt does it?

nozzferrahhtoo · 21-04-2018 05:55PM

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

Hassle? Sure why bother wearing a condom? Sure we can always go to the local GP and get the foetus crushed, ground up...and sucked out with a hoover.

The proposed legislation from the citizens assembly is abortion up to 12 weeks. Nothing you describe above is therefore accurate. The termination occurs merely by taking pills.

Even if a surgical abortion was being performed, it would not be a GP doing it.

And who says that a woman seeking an abortion was not using condoms?

So three for three, you appear to be making stuff up there. But if memory serves you were the one who compared the SSM referendum to you wanting to marry your horse, right?

amcalester · 21-04-2018 05:55PM

pitifulgod wrote: »

At the moment, restrictive abortion regimes Eg what we have. Has the effect of increase second trimester abortions. The abortion still happens, just at a far later stage. You have to arrange to travel, sometimes you have to save. Other route that people go in that scenario is to acquire abortion pills and have an abortion with no medical support. These scenarios both occur at the moment.

As someone who has witnessed first hand what a woman goes through after taking those pills I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.

In our case we were prescribed the pills due to a missed miscarriage and we had been told what to expect, had prescription painkillers and knew that help was on hand if we needed it.

We didn’t, but seeing how frightened, pained and scared my girlfriend was makes me wonder how the women forced to do this with illegally bought pills manage it.

pitifulgod · 21-04-2018 05:55PM

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

Hassle? Sure why bother wearing a condom? Sure we can always go to the local GP and get the foetus crushed, ground up...and sucked out with a hoover.

WHAT''S UP DOC???? Any chance you can take care of a LITTLE PROBLEM for me?

YEAH YEAH

If you're concerned about surgical abortions which is what you're describing, a gp will not be doing surgical abortion. However a restrictive abortion regime increases the occurrence of surgical abortions by virtue of forcing a woman to travel... Also plenty of pregnancies occur even when protection is used. Not 100%.

robarmstrong · 21-04-2018 05:57PM

Blahblah2012 wrote: »

Truth hurt does it?

Well it wasn't truth.

So nah.

Still have that attitude after reading the situation myself and my partner were in?

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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