Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
Cork city car ban set to be parked after just 3 weeks
-
20-04-2018 11:59amJust after reading this article:
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cork-city-car-ban-set-to-be-parked-after-just-3-weeks-838299.html
Hopefully it'll be a nice cold shower to those involved in traffic/congestion management in towns and cities up and down the country.
You cannot just Ban people using their cars without having a proven viable, faster and more efficient alternative in place first.
I have not been down in Cork city in a number of years.
A Guy I work with though has family living there and they said the Car Ban is the biggest F*** up they've ever done.
Great to see people banding together and giving the idiots in the council a good tug on the reins.5
Comments
-
I like car bans0
-
To be clear it was a partial car restriction on one Street for a few hours. It wasn't a widespread car ban. Cork people are always complaining about the public transport in Cork being crap and Dublin gets all the investment. Then a small public transport priority measure is brought in and the complaining goes to new heights. God help us if BusConnects or a BRT ever happens. The traders in the city would lose the plot altogether.0
-
A Guy I work with though has family living there and they said the Car Ban is the biggest F*** up they've ever done.
Somebody you know knows somebody who said it was a big mistake.
Hard to disagree with the ban being overturned on the presentation of such in-depth evidence of council negligence.
:rolleyes:0 -
It's always the stick before the carrot. If the country goes to the wall again (it probably will as we never learn), I think the Germans should take over and sort out this mess of a country. Current property system - abolish. Current planning system - abolish! Lots of P45s needed to clear out all the cyclophiles in transport planning circles. Abolish tax breaks completely to fund massive rail investment. Build remaining motorways, but concentrate mostly on railways. Tax all hoarded land out of existence - in fact, abolish development plans over time and replace with Town Orders with CPOs. Crush the legal system. Perhaps, Putin might be a better fit to get this country sorted.0
-
-
Advertisement
-
Join Date:Posts: 5118
Middle Man wrote: »It's always the stick before the carrot. If the country goes to the wall again (it probably will as we never learn), I think the Germans should take over and sort out this mess of a country. Current property system - abolish. Current planning system - abolish! Lots of P45s needed to clear out all the cyclophiles in transport planning circles. Abolish tax breaks completely to fund massive rail investment. Build remaining motorways, but concentrate mostly on railways. Tax all hoarded land out of existence - in fact, abolish development plans over time and replace with Town Orders with CPOs. Crush the legal system. Perhaps, Putin might be a better fit to get this country sorted.0 -
Somebody you know knows somebody who said it was a big mistake.
Hard to disagree with the ban being overturned on the presentation of such in-depth evidence of council negligence.
:rolleyes:
Glad you agree
Everyone knows word of mouth between friends and family is worth 10,000,000 times more than the promises/statistics of an elected politician or civil servant that's done the same "Job" for the last 30 years and knows nothing outside that box.
You'd need to be seriously stupid to think otherwise.namloc1980 wrote: »To be clear it was a partial car restriction on one Street for a few hours. It wasn't a widespread car ban. Cork people are always complaining about the public transport in Cork being crap and Dublin gets all the investment. Then a small public transport priority measure is brought in and the complaining goes to new heights. God help us if BusConnects or a BRT ever happens. The traders in the city would lose the plot altogether.
You only need to put a ban in at certain times of the day on certain roads to effectively have a total car ban.0 -
I just love how all the car haters on here and elsewhere are like "oh no, the traders don't know what's good for business, car bans are great". Well, I expect that a 50% loss of trade proves them right and the haters wrong.
Because reading this thread gives me a certain sense of Deja Vu. Specifically, the Galway bypass threads were crawling with cyclomaniacs claiming that Galway didn't need a bypass to deal with the fact that a load of national roads including the main route from the East to Barna, Spiddal and other places all converge on city streets. No, they said, Galway needs more traffic restrictions instead. Specifically, city traders who said they needed the bypass to get long distance traffic out of the city and replace it with shoppers, this idea was pooh-poohed by the anti-car fraternity.0 -
I just love how all the car haters on here and elsewhere are like "oh no, the traders don't know what's good for business, car bans are great". Well, I expect that a 50% loss of trade proves them right and the haters wrong.
The traders didn't produce a single fact or shred of evidence. 50% is a nice round figure though, don't you think? They had lots of feelings though. And feelings trump facts and evidence these days (pun intended).0 -
50% is an extreme case from one store, but seems business is down across the CC.
And why would they make it up? If the car ban meant busloads of customers came instead because the bus was so much better, why would they make up a claim about business being down?
Do you really think that if they were making more sales because of the car ban, they'd just make up a loss for no reason to get it reversed? What rational trader would do that?
At any rate, what sort of evidence and how much would you consider to sufficient to prove the case?0 -
Advertisement
-
50% is an extreme case from one store, but seems business is down across the CC.
And why would they make it up? If the car ban meant busloads of customers came instead because the bus was so much better, why would they make up a claim about business being down?
Do you really think that if they were making more sales because of the car ban, they'd just make up a loss for no reason to get it reversed? What rational trader would do that?
At any rate, what sort of evidence and how much would you consider to sufficient to prove the case?
They were calling for it to be scrapped after Day 1! They didn't give it any chance whatsoever. And it was reported earlier today that no trader made a submission during the consultation period. That makes no sense whatsoever. Don't bother engaging in the consultation and planning phase and then call for it to be scrapped after the first day.0 -
Perhaps they took a wait and see approach? And then after Day 1, they saw their takings go down the drain?
In any case, we assume that the traders are rational, they want to sell stuff and make money. Why would they make up claims about their business being hammered?
I for one am not surprised in the least.0 -
-
I just love how all the car haters on here and elsewhere are like "oh no, the traders don't know what's good for business, car bans are great". Well, I expect that a 50% loss of trade proves them right and the haters wrong.
Because reading this thread gives me a certain sense of Deja Vu. Specifically, the Galway bypass threads were crawling with cyclomaniacs claiming that Galway didn't need a bypass to deal with the fact that a load of national roads including the main route from the East to Barna, Spiddal and other places all converge on city streets. No, they said, Galway needs more traffic restrictions instead. Specifically, city traders who said they needed the bypass to get long distance traffic out of the city and replace it with shoppers, this idea was pooh-poohed by the anti-car fraternity.0 -
namloc1980 wrote: »:pac: Good one. Let's take a wait and see approach.......ah fcuk it let's call for it to be scrapped after Day 1. :pac:
My working assumption is that the traders are in the business of selling stuff, and that as rational actors they will support anything that helps them sell stuff, and oppose anything that makes them sell less stuff. Following on from this, it stands to reason that they would get animated if their takings went down the drain.
If you believe that the traders are being untruthful or acting irrationally in some manner, that could stand some explanation.0 -
namloc1980 wrote: »:pac: Good one. Let's take a wait and see approach.......ah fcuk it let's call for it to be scrapped after Day 1. :pac:0
-
Middle Man wrote: »If it is true that up to half the takings (and I said 'up to') were wiped out on Day 1, do you think most businesses could afford that - especially given the high overheads in this country - I think not. It seems like a case of implementing something without thinking it through - were travel alternatives put in place??? Any extra buses, park & walk sites - anything???
We've nothing to suggest it's true other than say-so. Again the traders didn't make ANY submissions during the consultation period. They didn't engage with the council. Then Day 1 arrives and they began moaning. None of the multinationals complained about takings being down. A rep from opera lane said business was flat and around what would be expected.0 -
It feels weird to me and I don’t buy the traders’ line, though I do have sympathy for them.
The ban was on traffic on St Patrick’s Street. I’m a Cork native, yet I’d very rarely drive up/down Pana. There are no car parks directly accessible from Pana, and there is little on street parking. There are other ways around the city that don’t involve Pana. And I don’t think many of traders’ I’ve seen complaining are actually based on Pana.
Cork city has a love affair with the car that needs to be curtailed. Parking standards are atrocious in Cork (compared to Dublin) as people just about park where they damned like. Clamping was introduced years ago in Cork and then revoked due to complaints. Pity the CC didn’t have the balls to stick with it0 -
Middle Man wrote: »Car hating has gone way to far in this country - other countries where cars are banned in cities usually have proper alternatives in place - that's why we need to invest in rail. In fact, Cork seriously needs to look at a new rail terminal where the current Merchants Quay SC is located with a u-loop connection across the Lee from Kent Station - one of the major problems with rail usage in Ireland is that the stations are located too far from where people want to go. Secondly, Cork seriously needs to look at a light rail solution - both an East-West line serving perhaps Mahon and UCC and a North-South line utilising the centre lanes of both the South City Link and Blackpool Bypass (after the CNRR is constructed). Last but not least, Cork needs to include proper P+R sites for commuters with car parking in the city centre (before 10am) severely restricted once all the transit solutions are in place.
We'd all love shiny new rail lines and stations but economic reality means that we won't see anything like that in the medium term. The local authority don't have the power to fund it and the national bodies don't see it as being value for money. The new entrance at Kent station is the best we can hope for.
As regards a tram, the city is serious about it but again the economics don't allow for it in the short to medium term. The population density, particularly in the Mahon area, is too low. When it does eventually go ahead I wonder what will be the reaction when Merchant;s Quay, Pana, Grand Parade, Washington Street, and Western Road become building sites for 2-3 years?
More P&Rs are definitely needed and could be built relatively quickly, but they need to be accompanied by proper bus lanes which again will cause disruption.Middle Man wrote: »If it is true that up to half the takings (and I said 'up to') were wiped out on Day 1, do you think most businesses could afford that - especially given the high overheads in this country - I think not. It seems like a case of implementing something without thinking it through - were travel alternatives put in place??? Any extra buses, park & walk sites - anything???
It seems that no media outlet has analysed the traders claims in detail. If that 50% of takings is a comparison to last year then it should be noted that last April was a particularly dry one while this one has been particularly wet. Of course this will skew the statistics.
And the whole point of the City Centre Movement Strategy is to improve the reliability of buses. The buses have to show how much more reliable they have become before people are willing to switch from their cars, this was never going to happen on day 1.
The city council have to take some of the blame here. Why didn't they offer the free P&R on day 1? And wouldn't a summer implementation have been a better bet with reduced traffic and better weather? Their reduced parking offer is idiotic, restrict traffic with the bus corridor but encourage it with cut-priced parking0 -
namloc1980 wrote: »We've nothing to suggest it's true other than say-so. Again the traders didn't make ANY submissions during the consultation period. They didn't engage with the council. Then Day 1 arrives and they began moaning. None of the multinationals complained about takings being down. A rep from opera lane said business was flat and around what would be expected.It feels weird to me and I don’t buy the traders’ line, though I do have sympathy for them.
- The traders in question are lying.
- The traders are telling the truth, and their business is down dramatically because of the car ban.
Cork city has a love affair with the car that needs to be curtailed.0 -
Advertisement
-
It feels weird to me and I don’t buy the traders’ line, though I do have sympathy for them.
The ban was on traffic on St Patrick’s Street. I’m a Cork native, yet I’d very rarely drive up/down Pana. There are no car parks directly accessible from Pana, and there is little on street parking. There are other ways around the city that don’t involve Pana. And I don’t think many of traders’ I’ve seen complaining are actually based on Pana.
I get what you are saying.
I never used College Green in Dublin to get to work, however when the Restrictions in College green came into place traffic all over the city got worse.
When the Luas came along they got worse again.
When the Extra bus lanes on the quays came along they got even worse again.
The traffic has to go somewhere, until it can't and then people will stop going into town if they avoid it at all.Cork city has a love affair with the car that needs to be curtailed. Parking standards are atrocious in Cork (compared to Dublin) as people just about park where they damned like. Clamping was introduced years ago in Cork and then revoked due to complaints. Pity the CC didn’t have the balls to stick with it
Ireland has a love affair with the Car! But there is nothing wrong with that.
The councils needs to concentrate on getting people where they need to go rather than trying to stop them using their cars.
Widen roads, add dedicated cycle and bus lanes and multi storey car parks.
Incentives for car pooling should be an option too.0 -
I get what you are saying.
I never used College Green in Dublin to get to work, however when the Restrictions in College green came into place traffic all over the city got worse.
When the Luas came along they got worse again.
When the Extra bus lanes on the quays came along they got even worse again.
The traffic has to go somewhere, until it can't and then people will stop going into town if they avoid it at all.
Ireland has a love affair with the Car! But there is nothing wrong with that.
The councils needs to concentrate on getting people where they need to go rather than trying to stop them using their cars.
Widen roads, add dedicated cycle and bus lanes and multi storey car parks.
Incentives for car pooling should be an option too.
You're contradicting yourself there.0 -
-
If you believe that the traders are being untruthful or acting irrationally in some manner, that could stand some explanation.
I think they honestly believed they are acting in their best interest.
Unfortunately it is not always the case - people don't know what is or will be better for them. Especially in medium to long term. What's more the city is for more people than 200 traders...0 -
Frostybrew wrote: »You're contradicting yourself there.
How so?
I'm not saying there should be no public transport.
I use public transport everyday!!0 -
I think they honestly believed they are acting in their best interest.
Unfortunately it is not always the case - people don't know what is or will be better for them. Especially in medium to long term. What's more the city is for more people than 200 traders...
The article in today's Irish Examiner is very interesting. It states that restricting car use in city centres gives a huge boost to city centre trade, and encouraging car use actively destroys city centres. It goes on to say that the strategy the Cork City traders have chosen is doomed to failure and all international studies support this. The contrasting fates of Leeds and Bradford city centres is used to show what happens when a city chooses the wrong option. Leeds went for a pedestrian friendly approach while Bradford chose the car option.
Subsequently Leeds City Centre has thrived and Bradford is in rapid decline. Cork is enthusiastically following Bradford's approach. Both Leeds and Bradford are very similar to Cork in many ways with similar economic histories and population sizes relative to their hinterland.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/our-city-centres-need-footfall-more-than-they-need-cars-838647.html
How Bradford is getting on.
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/15218036.Bradford_s_high_street_suffers_worst_decline_in_Yorkshire/0 -
-
Frostybrew wrote: »Blaming bus lanes for increased traffic levels, then suggesting more bus lanes should be introduced.
This?:When the Extra bus lanes on the quays came along they got even worse again.
Sorry if that's what you thought I implied, should have said "Adding extra bus lanes at the expense of Private vehicles lanes"
Of course we need Bus Lanes!0 -
This?:
Sorry if that's what you thought I implied, should have said "Adding extra bus lanes at the expense of Private vehicles lanes"
Of course we need Bus Lanes!
Thank you for clarification.
One of the issues is use of space. If existing road space is not used for new bus lanes then that space has to come from somewhere else. This would inevitably require expensive CPO and possible wide scale demolition of residential areas which would not be the best use of resources, especially in a country with an acute housing crisis.
The elephant in the room with regards Irish urban transport is the overuse of the motor car for commuting, and mostly single occupant commuting. There is simply not enough road space available to accommodate our present car dependant situation.
This is why modal shift is necessary as bus, cycling, light rail, and metro are far far more efficient people movers than our humble motor car. In Cork at present the percentage of public transport use is very low, something like less than 10%. It probably needs to be about 90% in order to sustain a vibrant and growing city. While car pooling can be an effective solution for some commuters (like those who live in remote areas) it will never be the core solution for the majority of people who commute from suburbs and commuter towns.
Hence better a public transport service is required and a key part of implementing a better service is dedicated road space (bus lanes) to ensure traffic congestion is avoided. This is what was attempted in Cork by turning Patrick Street into a public transport corridor from 3pm to 6.30pm every day.
The Cork city traders "footfall is down 40% argument" seems to have been a red herring argument to elicit an emotional response. No concrete evidence was put forward to support the claim. The real issue is to continue the dominance of the motor car in Cork City, and prevent any more road space being used for any form of public transport. A possible shill made this admission in the thread on the Cork city forum.0 -
Advertisement
-
Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,008 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 22604
I was reading a very interesting article on the effect that ecommerce is having in the US.
Shopping malls are being decimated their due to ecommerce. However interestingly they found two exceptions. High end shopping malls (think like Dundrum) and vibrant city centers.
Those two are actually doing very well and going from strength to strength!
The reason being they had a lot more then just retail like the more old fashioned shopping malls and were places people go for socialising, entertainment, etc. with a side of shopping.
Increasingly retailers are using these places as show rooms for their products. Fancy destination stores (think Apple Stores) where people can demo the products, get support, but might actually end up buying the product online for delivery from warehouses. A hybrid approach.
No one wants to spend their Saturday in some boring big box retail park getting dragged long distance from one big box to another. On the other hand, heading into town and getting some brunch/coffee with friends, then spending a few hours strolling around a nice city center, perhaps buying some jewellery/clothes, maybe even ordering a nice new sofa for delivery from Arnotts and then finishing off the afternoon in a nice pub. This is the type of shopping experience that is attracting people away from ecommerce.
But that requires attractive city centers which people actually want to go too and spend their time at. And that will usually mean lots of pedestrianisation. Wide easy to walk footpaths. Street entertainment, mix of nice coffee shops, restaurants, pubs, etc. in amongst the shops.
Cities like Cork and Dublin can certainly survive and even grow is this sort of environment, but they will absolutely have to change to match peoples changing tastes and preferences.0 -
I was reading a very interesting article on the effect that ecommerce is having in the US.
Shopping malls are being decimated their due to ecommerce. However interestingly they found two exceptions. High end shopping malls (think like Dundrum) and vibrant city centers.
Those two are actually doing very well and going from strength to strength!
The reason being they had a lot more then just retail like the more old fashioned shopping malls and were places people go for socialising, entertainment, etc. with a side of shopping.
Increasingly retailers are using these places as show rooms for their products. Fancy destination stores (think Apple Stores) where people can demo the products, get support, but might actually end up buying the product online for delivery from warehouses. A hybrid approach.
No one wants to spend their Saturday in some boring big box retail park getting dragged long distance from one big box to another. On the other hand, heading into town and getting some brunch/coffee with friends, then spending a few hours strolling around a nice city center, perhaps buying some jewellery/clothes, maybe even ordering a nice new sofa for delivery from Arnotts and then finishing off the afternoon in a nice pub. This is the type of shopping experience that is attracting people away from ecommerce.
But that requires attractive city centers which people actually want to go too and spend their time at. And that will usually mean lots of pedestrianisation. Wide easy to walk footpaths. Street entertainment, mix of nice coffee shops, restaurants, pubs, etc. in amongst the shops.
Cities like Cork and Dublin can certainly survive and even grow is this sort of environment, but they will absolutely have to change to match peoples changing tastes and preferences.
Should planners at this stage not be trying to get more business in to towns rather than outside them. Aldi have being given permission to build a new store outside kinnegad . The councils should be encouraging them to build in the center of these small towns to help them grow again . I drove through Kinnegad recently and there seams to be plenty of abandoned buildings that could be knocked and developed, i am not saying CPO a row of houses for aldi etc but surly we should be getting these type of shops to build in towns as they will bring shoppers who may then use other services in the towns.0 -
We are VERY different people!No one wants to spend their Saturday in some boring big box retail park getting dragged long distance from one big box to another. On the other hand, heading into town and getting some brunch/coffee with friends, then spending a few hours strolling around a nice city center, perhaps buying some jewellery/clothes, maybe even ordering a nice new sofa for delivery from Arnotts and then finishing off the afternoon in a nice pub. This is the type of shopping experience that is attracting people away from ecommerce.0
-
Ireland has a love affair with the Car! But there is nothing wrong with that.
If you ignore the stats that show how many people are killed by accidents and through air pollution caused by cars, and all the money that flows out of our economy because of cars, yeh there’s not much wrong with them.0 -
-
Advertisement
-
Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,008 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 22604
roadmaster wrote: »Should planners at this stage not be trying to get more business in to towns rather than outside them. Aldi have being given permission to build a new store outside kinnegad . The councils should be encouraging them to build in the center of these small towns to help them grow again . I drove through Kinnegad recently and there seams to be plenty of abandoned buildings that could be knocked and developed, i am not saying CPO a row of houses for aldi etc but surly we should be getting these type of shops to build in towns as they will bring shoppers who may then use other services in the towns.
Absolutely. The current approach by county planners is destroying our towns and villages.
While far from perfect, at least down in Cork the City Council is at least trying to make the city center more attractive for people.
A problem though with a lot of towns (and cities too) is that the available shop spaces are too small for modern retail demands. Small, old Irish shop buildings are just too small. So yes, ideally you need to be CPO'ing them and knocking them into larger units. Of course you run into listed building issues then, but that can be worked around (keeping facades, etc.). But if we don't do something about it, our town centers will continue to die.0 -
Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,008 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 22604
I'd rather be out on my bike than anywhere near shops/pubs!
I don't have a misses anymore either!
Sorry. Yeah, me too, I hear you, though hiking for me.
Though of course you do sometimes have to do it and when you do, I much prefer a city center then a big box retail park. And the point is that most people seem to prefer that too, going by what is happening in the US.0 -
I was reading a very interesting article on the effect that ecommerce is having in the US.
Shopping malls are being decimated their due to ecommerce. However interestingly they found two exceptions. High end shopping malls (think like Dundrum) and vibrant city centers.
Those two are actually doing very well and going from strength to strength!
The reason being they had a lot more then just retail like the more old fashioned shopping malls and were places people go for socialising, entertainment, etc. with a side of shopping.
Increasingly retailers are using these places as show rooms for their products. Fancy destination stores (think Apple Stores) where people can demo the products, get support, but might actually end up buying the product online for delivery from warehouses. A hybrid approach.
No one wants to spend their Saturday in some boring big box retail park getting dragged long distance from one big box to another. On the other hand, heading into town and getting some brunch/coffee with friends, then spending a few hours strolling around a nice city center, perhaps buying some jewellery/clothes, maybe even ordering a nice new sofa for delivery from Arnotts and then finishing off the afternoon in a nice pub. This is the type of shopping experience that is attracting people away from ecommerce.
But that requires attractive city centers which people actually want to go too and spend their time at. And that will usually mean lots of pedestrianisation. Wide easy to walk footpaths. Street entertainment, mix of nice coffee shops, restaurants, pubs, etc. in amongst the shops.
Cities like Cork and Dublin can certainly survive and even grow is this sort of environment, but they will absolutely have to change to match peoples changing tastes and preferences.
Very interesting. This would suggest that Cork's city centre traders are actively rejecting measures that will help them survive the rise of e commerce. I suspect this is down to them being poorly advised either by their business representatives or some other entity.0 -
Sorry. Yeah, me too, I hear you, though hiking for me.
Though of course you do sometimes have to do it and when you do, I much prefer a city center then a big box retail park. And the point is that most people seem to prefer that too, going by what is happening in the US.
Big box has it's place if you want to buy furniture, large electrical appliances, gardening stuff anything that's bulky and takes up a lot of space and difficult to carry if getting public transport or cycling. If I'm buying clothes r anything I can easily carry I'd go into the CC or Dundrum. Any bulky items I'd go to Ikea for furniture or another big box shop for anything else.
Actually I think big box retailers keep cars out of the city centre ie there's not many furniture shops in the city centre any more all in retail parks on the outskirts.0 -
Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,008 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 22604
Big box has it's place if you want to buy furniture, large electrical appliances, gardening stuff anything that's bulky and takes up a lot of space and difficult to carry if getting public transport or cycling. If I'm buying clothes r anything I can easily carry I'd go into the CC or Dundrum. Any bulky items I'd go to Ikea for furniture or another big box shop for anything else.
Actually I think big box retailers keep cars out of the city centre ie there's not many furniture shops in the city centre any more all in retail parks on the outskirts.
With the exception of Ikea, most bulky item shopping is also increasing moving to the showroom/demo model.
Buying a new sofa, it is very rare these days for the store to actually have any in stock. Normally you order it and it arrives from China a few weeks later. The little stock, just in time model. Ironically even the big, out of town box stores rarely actually have stock these days!
Of course it still exists, but internationally it is definitely shrinking.
BTW this doesn't mean large amounts of stock will be kept in the city center. Think of Arnotts, they have an extensive, electrical, white goods and furniture departments. They don't actually have much stock if any in store, you just pick out what you want and they deliver it next day from their warehouse, etc.0 -
Advertisement
-
Frostybrew wrote: »Very interesting. This would suggest that Cork's city centre traders are actively rejecting measures that will help them survive the rise of e commerce. I suspect this is down to them being poorly advised either by their business representatives or some other entity.
- They're all being lied to for by unknown 3rd parties for undefined, possibly nefarious reasons. And none of them are smart enough to smell a rat.
- Their business is genuinely being hammered and they are acting accordingly.
If you ignore the stats that show how many people are killed by accidents and through air pollution caused by cars, and all the money that flows out of our economy because of cars, yeh there’s not much wrong with them.Frostybrew wrote: »It goes on to say that the strategy the Cork City traders have chosen is doomed to failure and all international studies support this.The contrasting fates of Leeds and Bradford city centres is used to show what happens when a city chooses the wrong option. Leeds went for a pedestrian friendly approach while Bradford chose the car option.Subsequently Leeds City Centre has thrived and Bradford is in rapid decline. Cork is enthusiastically following Bradford's approach. Both Leeds and Bradford are very similar to Cork in many ways with similar economic histories and population sizes relative to their hinterland.
Cork city has a population of about 125,000. You have to include the metro area to get any significant population figure, of nearly 400,000. Bradford has a City population of over 500,000 and Leeds has a City population of 781,000. I don't have metro area populations for Leeds or Bradford but I suspect they are significant. It literally took me two minutes on Wikipedia to confirm that Cork is way smaller than either of the two above.
Each urban area is different and has different solutions to a given problem. If you have a traffic snarl up in a little village or small town, the solution is probably to bypass the village. A traffic problem in New York, London or Tokyo probably could never be solved by adding more roads, so that's when you'd look at building new Tube/Subway/Shinkansen lines etc.
Cork is also significantly different to Dublin in that Dublin has a massive city and Metro population, in excess of 500,000 and 1.3 million respectively, which is why Dublin City Council can do all the anti-car stuff it wants, there is sufficient footfall in the city and barely but adequate links from the metro area into the core to sustain it (Dart, commuter lines, 2 main luas routes and so on) that "big city" approaches will work for it.
Cork is smaller, with a much poorer transportation system (no trams and a heavy rail system centred around Kent station which is nowhere near Patrick Street). Because of all this, it stands to reason that the 200 traders who voted in unison to object to the car ban are relaying their experience accurately. It's also very likely that a lot of the discounting of the traders' position comes from ignorance or ideological foundations.Unfortunately it is not always the case - people don't know what is or will be better for them. Especially in medium to long term.
Assuming you have a job, say your boss said to you "we have this great initiative but it's going to mean cutting your salary by 50% for the foreseeable future - but you'll still have to pay all of your current expenses including income tax on your current salary" How long would it be before you object/quit? If you wouldn't put up with your income being hammered, why should the 200+ members of the Cork Business Alliance?What's more the city is for more people than 200 traders...0 -
What if there is no long term because the medicine kills the patient?
Chemo kills some patients, that's true. But now we are treating cancer with concealer.
Virtually never I get to the city to get my shopping/go out in my car. Parking has been a hassle since I remember. I'd take a taxi - with family of four it turns out cheapest, easier and faster. If I take the car, I go to Mahon... Ban actually did bring me to the city, not keep away...The phrase "canary in the coal mine" comes to mind. If you let the 200 traders go under, what replaces them?
I come from family of coal miners and don't get what you're trying to say. That those 200 are the litmus paper?
If the traders don't want to adapt and start delivering what a modern city needs - then fare well. You provide service to the city, not the other way round.0 -
I come from family of coal miners and don't get what you're trying to say.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/canary_in_a_coal_mine
has since become an idiom for anything that warns of danger. I put it to you that 200 traders seeing their business drop off a cliff qualifies.If the traders don't want to adapt and start delivering what a modern city needs - then fare well. You provide service to the city, not the other way round.0 -
Not only is this claim bizarre in the extreme
There's a big difference between poorly advised and 'lying'. You're trying to put words in my mouth. I suspect there's a touch of herd mentality underpinning the trader's actions.Umm ... you do realise that these cities are nothing like Cork at all, right?
You seemed to have ignored the term 'relative to their hinterland'.They are actually very similar, being second tier regional cities with a long successful industrial history and subsequent rustbelt style decline. Yes Cork's population is lower, but's it's influence in a wider national and international context would be similar.Baahahahahahahahhaahhaa ... oh wait, you were actually serious?
Interesting style of debate. Do you find this technique works?Cork is smaller, with a much poorer transportation system (no trams and a heavy rail system centred around Kent station which is nowhere near Patrick Street). Because of all this, it stands to reason that the 200 traders who voted in unison to object to the car ban are relaying their experience accurately. It's also very likely that a lot of the discounting of the traders' position comes from ignorance or ideological foundations.
The traders and the CBA provided no evidence. They made claims, but had no evidence to back them up. Can you prove your 'ignorance' claim? Where is your evidence?0 -
Historically, canaries were used as sentinel species in some coal mines.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/canary_in_a_coal_mine
has since become an idiom for anything that warns of danger. I put it to you that 200 traders seeing their business drop off a cliff qualifies.
As mentioned before - I know exactly what it means. I just don't know what you are trying to say...The traders represented include a wide variety of small business normally found in any town or city centre. If a City Centre is so badly mishandled by blind ideologues that it cannot (as a result of said mishandling) support a mens clothing store, Chinese take away, a cafe or a butcher, (and if said failure is caused solely by an abdication of responsibility for bad policy) then what exactly do you expect will work there?
Every Wednesday I would get my car at 3:30, drive to the city to get two pounds of minced beef and a suit... Ah, old times... /s
Regardless what kind of business you are, you need to know your customer.
If you are a suit specialist - who buys there? Is it someone that would be dropped of from Patrick Street? Don't think so...
If you are a butcher - who buys at your place? I guess it is someone that lives in the area or works in the area. Nobody in their sane mind would drive to a particular butcher shop, unless it is some very specialised shop, exp. who sells only meats from Minnesota.
Same logic can be applied to a cafe, a pharmacy, a bakery and an optician etc. Know your customers and understand what they need. Why the hell a bakery is closed when I am walking to the office in the morning? Make your stuff early morning and sell fresh to office rats when they go to the office.0 -
As mentioned before - I know exactly what it means. I just don't know what you are trying to say...If you are a butcher - who buys at your place? I guess it is someone that lives in the area or works in the area. Nobody in their sane mind would drive to a particular butcher shop, unless it is some very specialised shop, exp. who sells only meats from Minnesota.Same logic can be applied to a cafe, a pharmacy, a bakery and an optician etc. Know your customers and understand what they need. Why the hell a bakery is closed when I am walking to the office in the morning? Make your stuff early morning and sell fresh to office rats when they go to the office.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/ghost-town-cork-traders-threaten-rates-revolt-over-city-centre-car-ban-469377.html
I cannot think of many types of businesses that could thrive in that.Frostybrew wrote: »There's a big difference between poorly advised and 'lying'. You're trying to put words in my mouth. I suspect there's a touch of herd mentality underpinning the trader's actions.You seemed to have ignored the term 'relative to their hinterland'.They are actually very similar, being second tier regional cities with a long successful industrial history and subsequent rustbelt style decline. Yes Cork's population is lower, but's it's influence in a wider national and international context would be similar.Interesting style of debate. Do you find this technique works?
This makes the argument about Leeds-Bradford even more ridiculous because where comparing Cork with even one of them would be questionable in the extreme given that Cork is only a fraction of the size of either of them on their own, the fact that the two cities you mentioned are a conjoined metroplex, each in each others hinterland, makes it beyond ridiculous and just plain bizarre.The traders and the CBA provided no evidence. They made claims, but had no evidence to back them up. Can you prove your 'ignorance' claim? Where is your evidence?
Secondly, you only need evidence if you have reason to doubt the word of the people involved. But why would they lie? To suggest that they are not telling the truth about their experience when they have no rational reason to be untruthful is to raise two possibilities:- There's something going on and they're telling the truth but have not proved it to your satisfaction.
- Their business is fine and they're just making it up or something. All or most of 200 of them, acting in concert (conspiracy?). For some mysterious reason, maybe nefarious, maybe not, no-one knows. Or they're just all being mis-advised. By whom, why and for what reason? again no-one knows.
The first hypothesis is simple - the traders have suffered and they're speaking out accordingly. The other hypotheses given by the anti-car people here are bizarre, ill-conceived and incomprehensible. The only thing that is clear about any of them is that they are designed to support an already predetermined conclusion and that they are subordinate to it. Therefore, Occam's razor suggests that the first possibility is probably the correct one.
As for ignorance, I'm suggesting that it's easy to say that a bad policy should be continued when the person doing so is not suffering the ill effects of bad policy. If you just stick your fingers in your ears and purposefully ignore the problems because your conclusion is predetermined, that's being ignorant.0 -
https://www.independent.ie/archives/flashback-the-pedestrianisation-of-grafton-street-began-45-years-ago-today-35022278.htmlDespite continuing protests from local traders the Street was formally pedestrianised in the early 1980s. At first thought to be unsuccessful, the subsequent paving of the street benefitted the area.
Traders dislike any short-term interruption to the regular flow of business that they are used to. Their concerns should be listened to but they can be phenomenally short-sighted and not necessarily a bell-weather of anything.
Some of them quite possibly will also go out of business but they will be replaced and the world will keep turning.0
Advertisement