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Child Item

Cork city car ban set to be parked after just 3 weeks

Beta Ray Bill

Just after reading this article:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cork-city-car-ban-set-to-be-parked-after-just-3-weeks-838299.html

Hopefully it'll be a nice cold shower to those involved in traffic/congestion management in towns and cities up and down the country.

You cannot just Ban people using their cars without having a proven viable, faster and more efficient alternative in place first.

I have not been down in Cork city in a number of years.
A Guy I work with though has family living there and they said the Car Ban is the biggest F*** up they've ever done.

Great to see people banding together and giving the idiots in the council a good tug on the reins.

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Dats me

I like car bans

namloc1980

To be clear it was a partial car restriction on one Street for a few hours. It wasn't a widespread car ban. Cork people are always complaining about the public transport in Cork being crap and Dublin gets all the investment. Then a small public transport priority measure is brought in and the complaining goes to new heights. God help us if BusConnects or a BRT ever happens. The traders in the city would lose the plot altogether.

Zebra3

grahambo wrote: »

A Guy I work with though has family living there and they said the Car Ban is the biggest F*** up they've ever done.

Somebody you know knows somebody who said it was a big mistake.

Hard to disagree with the ban being overturned on the presentation of such in-depth evidence of council negligence.

:rolleyes:

Middle Man

It's always the stick before the carrot. If the country goes to the wall again (it probably will as we never learn), I think the Germans should take over and sort out this mess of a country. Current property system - abolish. Current planning system - abolish! Lots of P45s needed to clear out all the cyclophiles in transport planning circles. Abolish tax breaks completely to fund massive rail investment. Build remaining motorways, but concentrate mostly on railways. Tax all hoarded land out of existence - in fact, abolish development plans over time and replace with Town Orders with CPOs. Crush the legal system. Perhaps, Putin might be a better fit to get this country sorted.

Middle Man

Dats me wrote: »

I like car bans

Grow Up!

spacetweek

Middle Man wrote: »

It's always the stick before the carrot. If the country goes to the wall again (it probably will as we never learn), I think the Germans should take over and sort out this mess of a country. Current property system - abolish. Current planning system - abolish! Lots of P45s needed to clear out all the cyclophiles in transport planning circles. Abolish tax breaks completely to fund massive rail investment. Build remaining motorways, but concentrate mostly on railways. Tax all hoarded land out of existence - in fact, abolish development plans over time and replace with Town Orders with CPOs. Crush the legal system. Perhaps, Putin might be a better fit to get this country sorted.

That was a ridiculous, mostly off topic rant. Behave.

Beta Ray Bill

Zebra3 wrote: »

Somebody you know knows somebody who said it was a big mistake.

Hard to disagree with the ban being overturned on the presentation of such in-depth evidence of council negligence.

:rolleyes:

Glad you agree

Everyone knows word of mouth between friends and family is worth 10,000,000 times more than the promises/statistics of an elected politician or civil servant that's done the same "Job" for the last 30 years and knows nothing outside that box.

You'd need to be seriously stupid to think otherwise.

namloc1980 wrote: »

To be clear it was a partial car restriction on one Street for a few hours. It wasn't a widespread car ban. Cork people are always complaining about the public transport in Cork being crap and Dublin gets all the investment. Then a small public transport priority measure is brought in and the complaining goes to new heights. God help us if BusConnects or a BRT ever happens. The traders in the city would lose the plot altogether.

You only need to put a ban in at certain times of the day on certain roads to effectively have a total car ban.

SeanW

I just love how all the car haters on here and elsewhere are like "oh no, the traders don't know what's good for business, car bans are great". Well, I expect that a 50% loss of trade proves them right and the haters wrong.

Because reading this thread gives me a certain sense of Deja Vu. Specifically, the Galway bypass threads were crawling with cyclomaniacs claiming that Galway didn't need a bypass to deal with the fact that a load of national roads including the main route from the East to Barna, Spiddal and other places all converge on city streets. No, they said, Galway needs more traffic restrictions instead. Specifically, city traders who said they needed the bypass to get long distance traffic out of the city and replace it with shoppers, this idea was pooh-poohed by the anti-car fraternity.

namloc1980

SeanW wrote: »

I just love how all the car haters on here and elsewhere are like "oh no, the traders don't know what's good for business, car bans are great". Well, I expect that a 50% loss of trade proves them right and the haters wrong.

The traders didn't produce a single fact or shred of evidence. 50% is a nice round figure though, don't you think? They had lots of feelings though. And feelings trump facts and evidence these days (pun intended).

SeanW

50% is an extreme case from one store, but seems business is down across the CC.

And why would they make it up? If the car ban meant busloads of customers came instead because the bus was so much better, why would they make up a claim about business being down?

Do you really think that if they were making more sales because of the car ban, they'd just make up a loss for no reason to get it reversed? What rational trader would do that?

At any rate, what sort of evidence and how much would you consider to sufficient to prove the case?

namloc1980

SeanW wrote: »

50% is an extreme case from one store, but seems business is down across the CC.

And why would they make it up? If the car ban meant busloads of customers came instead because the bus was so much better, why would they make up a claim about business being down?

Do you really think that if they were making more sales because of the car ban, they'd just make up a loss for no reason to get it reversed? What rational trader would do that?

At any rate, what sort of evidence and how much would you consider to sufficient to prove the case?

They were calling for it to be scrapped after Day 1! They didn't give it any chance whatsoever. And it was reported earlier today that no trader made a submission during the consultation period. That makes no sense whatsoever. Don't bother engaging in the consultation and planning phase and then call for it to be scrapped after the first day.

SeanW

Perhaps they took a wait and see approach? And then after Day 1, they saw their takings go down the drain?

In any case, we assume that the traders are rational, they want to sell stuff and make money. Why would they make up claims about their business being hammered?

I for one am not surprised in the least.

namloc1980

SeanW wrote: »

Perhaps they took a wait and see approach? And then after Day 1, they saw their takings go down the drain?.

:pac: Good one. Let's take a wait and see approach.......ah fcuk it let's call for it to be scrapped after Day 1. :pac:

Middle Man

SeanW wrote: »

I just love how all the car haters on here and elsewhere are like "oh no, the traders don't know what's good for business, car bans are great". Well, I expect that a 50% loss of trade proves them right and the haters wrong.

Because reading this thread gives me a certain sense of Deja Vu. Specifically, the Galway bypass threads were crawling with cyclomaniacs claiming that Galway didn't need a bypass to deal with the fact that a load of national roads including the main route from the East to Barna, Spiddal and other places all converge on city streets. No, they said, Galway needs more traffic restrictions instead. Specifically, city traders who said they needed the bypass to get long distance traffic out of the city and replace it with shoppers, this idea was pooh-poohed by the anti-car fraternity.

Car hating has gone way to far in this country - other countries where cars are banned in cities usually have proper alternatives in place - that's why we need to invest in rail. In fact, Cork seriously needs to look at a new rail terminal where the current Merchants Quay SC is located with a u-loop connection across the Lee from Kent Station - one of the major problems with rail usage in Ireland is that the stations are located too far from where people want to go. Secondly, Cork seriously needs to look at a light rail solution - both an East-West line serving perhaps Mahon and UCC and a North-South line utilising the centre lanes of both the South City Link and Blackpool Bypass (after the CNRR is constructed). Last but not least, Cork needs to include proper P+R sites for commuters with car parking in the city centre (before 10am) severely restricted once all the transit solutions are in place.

SeanW

namloc1980 wrote: »

:pac: Good one. Let's take a wait and see approach.......ah fcuk it let's call for it to be scrapped after Day 1. :pac:

Is that how it happened? No Cork CC traders made representations before hand?

My working assumption is that the traders are in the business of selling stuff, and that as rational actors they will support anything that helps them sell stuff, and oppose anything that makes them sell less stuff. Following on from this, it stands to reason that they would get animated if their takings went down the drain.

If you believe that the traders are being untruthful or acting irrationally in some manner, that could stand some explanation.

Middle Man

namloc1980 wrote: »

:pac: Good one. Let's take a wait and see approach.......ah fcuk it let's call for it to be scrapped after Day 1. :pac:

If it is true that up to half the takings (and I said 'up to') were wiped out on Day 1, do you think most businesses could afford that - especially given the high overheads in this country - I think not. It seems like a case of implementing something without thinking it through - were travel alternatives put in place??? Any extra buses, park & walk sites - anything???

namloc1980

Middle Man wrote: »

If it is true that up to half the takings (and I said 'up to') were wiped out on Day 1, do you think most businesses could afford that - especially given the high overheads in this country - I think not. It seems like a case of implementing something without thinking it through - were travel alternatives put in place??? Any extra buses, park & walk sites - anything???

We've nothing to suggest it's true other than say-so. Again the traders didn't make ANY submissions during the consultation period. They didn't engage with the council. Then Day 1 arrives and they began moaning. None of the multinationals complained about takings being down. A rep from opera lane said business was flat and around what would be expected.

dudara

It feels weird to me and I don’t buy the traders’ line, though I do have sympathy for them.

The ban was on traffic on St Patrick’s Street. I’m a Cork native, yet I’d very rarely drive up/down Pana. There are no car parks directly accessible from Pana, and there is little on street parking. There are other ways around the city that don’t involve Pana. And I don’t think many of traders’ I’ve seen complaining are actually based on Pana.

Cork city has a love affair with the car that needs to be curtailed. Parking standards are atrocious in Cork (compared to Dublin) as people just about park where they damned like. Clamping was introduced years ago in Cork and then revoked due to complaints. Pity the CC didn’t have the balls to stick with it

pigtown

Middle Man wrote: »

Car hating has gone way to far in this country - other countries where cars are banned in cities usually have proper alternatives in place - that's why we need to invest in rail. In fact, Cork seriously needs to look at a new rail terminal where the current Merchants Quay SC is located with a u-loop connection across the Lee from Kent Station - one of the major problems with rail usage in Ireland is that the stations are located too far from where people want to go. Secondly, Cork seriously needs to look at a light rail solution - both an East-West line serving perhaps Mahon and UCC and a North-South line utilising the centre lanes of both the South City Link and Blackpool Bypass (after the CNRR is constructed). Last but not least, Cork needs to include proper P+R sites for commuters with car parking in the city centre (before 10am) severely restricted once all the transit solutions are in place.

We'd all love shiny new rail lines and stations but economic reality means that we won't see anything like that in the medium term. The local authority don't have the power to fund it and the national bodies don't see it as being value for money. The new entrance at Kent station is the best we can hope for.

As regards a tram, the city is serious about it but again the economics don't allow for it in the short to medium term. The population density, particularly in the Mahon area, is too low. When it does eventually go ahead I wonder what will be the reaction when Merchant;s Quay, Pana, Grand Parade, Washington Street, and Western Road become building sites for 2-3 years?

More P&Rs are definitely needed and could be built relatively quickly, but they need to be accompanied by proper bus lanes which again will cause disruption.

Middle Man wrote: »

If it is true that up to half the takings (and I said 'up to') were wiped out on Day 1, do you think most businesses could afford that - especially given the high overheads in this country - I think not. It seems like a case of implementing something without thinking it through - were travel alternatives put in place??? Any extra buses, park & walk sites - anything???

It seems that no media outlet has analysed the traders claims in detail. If that 50% of takings is a comparison to last year then it should be noted that last April was a particularly dry one while this one has been particularly wet. Of course this will skew the statistics.
And the whole point of the City Centre Movement Strategy is to improve the reliability of buses. The buses have to show how much more reliable they have become before people are willing to switch from their cars, this was never going to happen on day 1.

The city council have to take some of the blame here. Why didn't they offer the free P&R on day 1? And wouldn't a summer implementation have been a better bet with reduced traffic and better weather? Their reduced parking offer is idiotic, restrict traffic with the bus corridor but encourage it with cut-priced parking

SeanW

namloc1980 wrote: »

We've nothing to suggest it's true other than say-so. Again the traders didn't make ANY submissions during the consultation period. They didn't engage with the council. Then Day 1 arrives and they began moaning. None of the multinationals complained about takings being down. A rep from opera lane said business was flat and around what would be expected.

dudara wrote: »

It feels weird to me and I don’t buy the traders’ line, though I do have sympathy for them.

If they're not telling the truth, then why is this so? What is their end-objective in objecting to something that does not hurt their business. Because there are only two choices here:

The traders in question are lying.
The traders are telling the truth, and their business is down dramatically because of the car ban.

Cork city has a love affair with the car that needs to be curtailed.

So the traders that see their business decline by up to half should ... just go away and get stuffed?

Beta Ray Bill

dudara wrote: »

It feels weird to me and I don’t buy the traders’ line, though I do have sympathy for them.

The ban was on traffic on St Patrick’s Street. I’m a Cork native, yet I’d very rarely drive up/down Pana. There are no car parks directly accessible from Pana, and there is little on street parking. There are other ways around the city that don’t involve Pana. And I don’t think many of traders’ I’ve seen complaining are actually based on Pana.

I get what you are saying.
I never used College Green in Dublin to get to work, however when the Restrictions in College green came into place traffic all over the city got worse.
When the Luas came along they got worse again.
When the Extra bus lanes on the quays came along they got even worse again.

The traffic has to go somewhere, until it can't and then people will stop going into town if they avoid it at all.

dudara wrote: »

Cork city has a love affair with the car that needs to be curtailed. Parking standards are atrocious in Cork (compared to Dublin) as people just about park where they damned like. Clamping was introduced years ago in Cork and then revoked due to complaints. Pity the CC didn’t have the balls to stick with it

Ireland has a love affair with the Car! But there is nothing wrong with that.
The councils needs to concentrate on getting people where they need to go rather than trying to stop them using their cars.

Widen roads, add dedicated cycle and bus lanes and multi storey car parks.
Incentives for car pooling should be an option too.

Frostybrew

grahambo wrote: »

I get what you are saying.
I never used College Green in Dublin to get to work, however when the Restrictions in College green came into place traffic all over the city got worse.
When the Luas came along they got worse again.
When the Extra bus lanes on the quays came along they got even worse again.

The traffic has to go somewhere, until it can't and then people will stop going into town if they avoid it at all.

Ireland has a love affair with the Car! But there is nothing wrong with that.
The councils needs to concentrate on getting people where they need to go rather than trying to stop them using their cars.

Widen roads, add dedicated cycle and bus lanes and multi storey car parks.
Incentives for car pooling should be an option too.

You're contradicting yourself there.

grogi

grahambo wrote: »

Great to see people banding together and giving the idiots in the council a good tug on the reins.

I loved it...

grogi

SeanW wrote: »

If you believe that the traders are being untruthful or acting irrationally in some manner, that could stand some explanation.

I think they honestly believed they are acting in their best interest.

Unfortunately it is not always the case - people don't know what is or will be better for them. Especially in medium to long term. What's more the city is for more people than 200 traders...

Beta Ray Bill

Frostybrew wrote: »

You're contradicting yourself there.

How so?

I'm not saying there should be no public transport.
I use public transport everyday!!

Frostybrew

grogi wrote: »

I think they honestly believed they are acting in their best interest.

Unfortunately it is not always the case - people don't know what is or will be better for them. Especially in medium to long term. What's more the city is for more people than 200 traders...

The article in today's Irish Examiner is very interesting. It states that restricting car use in city centres gives a huge boost to city centre trade, and encouraging car use actively destroys city centres. It goes on to say that the strategy the Cork City traders have chosen is doomed to failure and all international studies support this. The contrasting fates of Leeds and Bradford city centres is used to show what happens when a city chooses the wrong option. Leeds went for a pedestrian friendly approach while Bradford chose the car option.

Subsequently Leeds City Centre has thrived and Bradford is in rapid decline. Cork is enthusiastically following Bradford's approach. Both Leeds and Bradford are very similar to Cork in many ways with similar economic histories and population sizes relative to their hinterland.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/our-city-centres-need-footfall-more-than-they-need-cars-838647.html

How Bradford is getting on.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/15218036.Bradford_s_high_street_suffers_worst_decline_in_Yorkshire/

Frostybrew

grahambo wrote: »

How so?

I'm not saying there should be no public transport.
I use public transport everyday!!

Blaming bus lanes for increased traffic levels, then suggesting more bus lanes should be introduced.

Beta Ray Bill

Frostybrew wrote: »

Blaming bus lanes for increased traffic levels, then suggesting more bus lanes should be introduced.

This?:

When the Extra bus lanes on the quays came along they got even worse again.

Sorry if that's what you thought I implied, should have said "Adding extra bus lanes at the expense of Private vehicles lanes"

Of course we need Bus Lanes!

Frostybrew

grahambo wrote: »

This?:

Sorry if that's what you thought I implied, should have said "Adding extra bus lanes at the expense of Private vehicles lanes"

Of course we need Bus Lanes!

Thank you for clarification.

One of the issues is use of space. If existing road space is not used for new bus lanes then that space has to come from somewhere else. This would inevitably require expensive CPO and possible wide scale demolition of residential areas which would not be the best use of resources, especially in a country with an acute housing crisis.

The elephant in the room with regards Irish urban transport is the overuse of the motor car for commuting, and mostly single occupant commuting. There is simply not enough road space available to accommodate our present car dependant situation.

This is why modal shift is necessary as bus, cycling, light rail, and metro are far far more efficient people movers than our humble motor car. In Cork at present the percentage of public transport use is very low, something like less than 10%. It probably needs to be about 90% in order to sustain a vibrant and growing city. While car pooling can be an effective solution for some commuters (like those who live in remote areas) it will never be the core solution for the majority of people who commute from suburbs and commuter towns.

Hence better a public transport service is required and a key part of implementing a better service is dedicated road space (bus lanes) to ensure traffic congestion is avoided. This is what was attempted in Cork by turning Patrick Street into a public transport corridor from 3pm to 6.30pm every day.

The Cork city traders "footfall is down 40% argument" seems to have been a red herring argument to elicit an emotional response. No concrete evidence was put forward to support the claim. The real issue is to continue the dominance of the motor car in Cork City, and prevent any more road space being used for any form of public transport. A possible shill made this admission in the thread on the Cork city forum.

I was reading a very interesting article on the effect that ecommerce is having in the US.

Shopping malls are being decimated their due to ecommerce. However interestingly they found two exceptions. High end shopping malls (think like Dundrum) and vibrant city centers.

Those two are actually doing very well and going from strength to strength!

The reason being they had a lot more then just retail like the more old fashioned shopping malls and were places people go for socialising, entertainment, etc. with a side of shopping.

Increasingly retailers are using these places as show rooms for their products. Fancy destination stores (think Apple Stores) where people can demo the products, get support, but might actually end up buying the product online for delivery from warehouses. A hybrid approach.

No one wants to spend their Saturday in some boring big box retail park getting dragged long distance from one big box to another. On the other hand, heading into town and getting some brunch/coffee with friends, then spending a few hours strolling around a nice city center, perhaps buying some jewellery/clothes, maybe even ordering a nice new sofa for delivery from Arnotts and then finishing off the afternoon in a nice pub. This is the type of shopping experience that is attracting people away from ecommerce.

But that requires attractive city centers which people actually want to go too and spend their time at. And that will usually mean lots of pedestrianisation. Wide easy to walk footpaths. Street entertainment, mix of nice coffee shops, restaurants, pubs, etc. in amongst the shops.

Cities like Cork and Dublin can certainly survive and even grow is this sort of environment, but they will absolutely have to change to match peoples changing tastes and preferences.