Throwing in the towel, counted out.

robinph · 15-04-2018 8:09am #1

Was not good watching Callum Hawkins falling over, meandering across the road, and hitting his head off crash barriers in the Commonwealth Games Marathon and then being left on the road in the hear with nothing other than a few spectators taking photos and then a medic and a marshal joining in with the standing around and watching.
The spectators behaviour was odd as you’d have thought that one of them would have had a bottle of water to offer and before the marshals got there and presumably told nobody to touch him.

But at what point does the athlete relinquish their option to make decisions to accept or refuse assistance?

In boxing the team will throw in the towel when they decide that you’ve taken enough of a beating, or the referee will count you out if they decide you shouldn’t continue. Now in a marathon there isn’t going to be a hotline to team manager to throw the towel in for you, but it should be easy to make someone have the call from the lead vehicle that just says that person is out and needs help.

If you hit the deck from the lead group within the last 5km and don’t get immediately back up then you are out, no need to debate it with the athlete or anyone. It’s game over.

Testosterscone · 15-04-2018 10:12am

It's a bit of a minefield at the moment.

With the rules set up the way they are officials are fearful of pulling someone off the course and getting them DQ'ed. Most athletes are pig headed and won't give up. Not to mention when the likes of appearance money etc on the line there is the possibility where an athlete (or indeed a manager given some of the horror stories of Kenyan athletes being exploited by foreign managers etc) could turn around and say they didn't wanna be pulled and could have made it to the line and possibly claim for loss of earnings creating a possible litigation culture to be exploited.

Boxing is a good example however again here the purse is decided and there isn't the risk of losing a rare payday.

Having said that the rules need to be changed. These sort of scenes are becoming all too common

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MylDS0NxqB0

Djoucer · 15-04-2018 11:40am

Was hard to watch.

Watched it live and he was all over the road before he fell. You knew he was going to hit the ground.

But...after the first fall, he got back running strong and looked ok for a bit but the wheels truely came off.

Think the isssue is the lack of help. There's no way he should've been left flailing around trying to get up.

It was clear that he was in trouble for 5 mins before he finally stopped. Organisers should've had someone by his side bedore he collapsed.

They seem a lot more proactive however in removing all videos of the incident on copyright grounds.

Glencarraig · 15-04-2018 11:42am

he was never going to finish so it didnt matter if somebody helped him and he got dq'd. The organisers and medical personnel have a lot of questions to answer. That man could have died on the road.

Hurrache · 15-04-2018 1:08pm

Not a good moment in the sport. Compare and contrast Jonny Brownlee 2 years ago, should he have been pulled out of the race instead of it becoming what some say is one of the greatest moments in sport?

Djoucer · 15-04-2018 1:30pm

To be fair, that's triathlon. They're expected to walk the last few km.

skyblue46 · 15-04-2018 3:12pm

Djoucer wrote: »

Was hard to watch.

Watched it live and he was all over the road before he fell. You knew he was going to hit the ground.

But...after the first fall, he got back running strong and looked ok for a bit but the wheels truely came off.

Think the isssue is the lack of help. There's no way he should've been left flailing around trying to get up.

It was clear that he was in trouble for 5 mins before he finally stopped. Organisers should've had someone by his side bedore he collapsed.

They seem a lot more proactive however in removing all videos of the incident on copyright grounds.

I was watching it live too and I found the time after he collapsed for the last time particularly distressing. To see him attempting to get up and not being able to lift any more than his head off the ground. Shocking to see people just stand and look at this. From reading some of the posts on this I am getting an understanding of rules re DQIng etc but a UFC fighter or a boxer who partakes in what some would consider barbaric sports would not be left in distress for so long.

robinph · 15-04-2018 3:21pm

If you are unable to outrun the medics in the last 5km then you should be DQed. The option of the athlete refusing assistance should be removed for the elites.

And I say that as someone seconds from being in the similar situation at London last year. The difference is that outside of the lead group the assistance being given is not going to be an issue as it will be offered, accepted and nobody gets DQed and you can still cross the line if you recover 10 minutes later.

Enduro · 15-04-2018 8:52pm

I've competed in multiple races with a simple rule : if an official race medic says you can't continue then you're out. End of story, no arguments, no comebacks. It's a condition of entry when you sign up. Can't see why this couldn't be applied to any race.

average_runner · 15-04-2018 9:33pm

Enduro wrote: »

I've competed in multiple races with a simple rule : if an official race medic says you can't continue then you're out. End of story, no arguments, no comebacks. It's a condition of entry when you sign up. Can't see why this couldn't be applied to any race.

I think thats a fair guideline.

Djoucer · 15-04-2018 9:44pm

Maybe fair but impossible to implement in a marathon when you're running those times like Hawkins.

Hardly going to time you out while doctors give you a once over.

It happens so infrequently that it's not an issue.

robinph · 15-04-2018 9:56pm

Doesn't need a doctor to check you over though. Just needs a race official on the lead media truck watching the lead group, someone gets in a state and they get DQed. Doesn't need a full medical exam to know from the TV pictures that Hawkins needed help and wasn't capable of continuing. Just needs some watching the previous 5 minutes of the event to make the call, which the medics on the side of the road won't have seen.

It doesn't matter outside of the lead group of runners either as once you are out of the medals then the motivation for the runner to refuse assistance is majorly reduced and the medics on the side of the course can take command without fear of affecting the results or a particularly strong resistance from the athlete.

Enduro · 15-04-2018 10:01pm

Djoucer wrote: »

Maybe fair but impossible to implement in a marathon when you're running those times like Hawkins.

Hardly going to time you out while doctors give you a once over.

It happens so infrequently that it's not an issue.

No need to time anyone out. A runner fainted hardly needs to be timed out!

But medics should get priority over racing, using their judgement as to when intervention is required. One of the issues I've seen raised was that medics could be reluctant to intervene due to the possibility of the runner being DSQed as a result. That's where the rules could be altered if that is indeed an issue.

I do agree its not as big an issue as some are making out.

15-04-2018 10:28pm

robinph wrote: »

someone gets in a state and they get DQed

How many of these should have been DQed: https://www.google.com/search?q=runner+crawls+over+line? Hawkins himself hit the floor, but managed to get back up, before falling again further on. If he had finished without falling a second time should he have been DQed?

There's a line in one of the BBC articles that I strongly disagree with:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/commonwealth-games/43774316 wrote:

The rules state that a runner can only get medical assistance when he asks for it

The rule should be

The rules state that a runner will receive medical assistance unless he is capable of clearly stating that he does not want it

The one exception to that would be in cases where a head injury has been observed (a la rugby's HIA). Which, in athletics, should thankfully be rare

average_runner · 15-04-2018 11:14pm

Djoucer wrote: »

Maybe fair but impossible to implement in a marathon when you're running those times like Hawkins.

Hardly going to time you out while doctors give you a once over.

It happens so infrequently that it's not an issue.

The medical staff are trained so would have the expertise to call it and not the athlete who is in a state of clueless.

pgmcpq · 18-04-2018 5:55pm

The thing with the elites is that unless you are a medical professional you are potentially messing with someone's career. So I can understand the hesitation to get involved.

On the other hand once exhaustion kicks in the head is the first thing to go. I've done a couple of marathons in 30-35c. Guys who go down usually say they did not see it coming. I'm on my way back from Boston where a friend reported that it took her almost 20mins to finish the last mile and she has no memory of it. All of which is to say that runners often cannot make good decisions, but still need every chance to finish.

It seems to me that the rules could be re wriiten to say e.g - that helping a runner move forward 20feet or more, or supplying nutrition to a runner still standing results in a DQ. This still leaves the tricky case where two runners go down and there is only one medic available - who gets help first. Still I think this is a starting point where care is given, but there is no advantage to gaming the system.

TFBubendorfer · 18-04-2018 8:49pm

average_runner wrote: »

The medical staff are trained so would have the expertise to call it and not the athlete who is in a state of clueless.

That would be great but in reality most medical staff are not particularly trained in how to deal with elite athletes, who often behave differently than your average person, especially in how they react when the going gets tough.

robinph · 18-04-2018 10:22pm

There isn't a lot that the medic on the side of the road can do admittedly and nothing much useful will happen until the get a drip in and off to hospital to cool down.

What the medic on the side of the road can do though is tell the athlete they are out and the knowledge that they are not competing anymore and there is no need to keep fighting will help resolve the situation. If the medic also isn't afraid to move the athlete off the road and into some shade and give them a bottle of water to tip over their head or sip on until the ambulance arrives to cart them off then it will help.

If they can't outrun the medic then they have no place still trying to compete. Just remove the option for the athlete to refuse assistance due to potential DQ and have the medics make that call.

Throwing in the towel, counted out.

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