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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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Comments

  • #6542
    gmisk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,391 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    ELM327 wrote: »
    So does wearing sandals with socks, should we make wearing those illegal too! :P:P
    er YES!!!!


  • #6543
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    RobertKK wrote:
    If it was not just as important as a born life, otherwise we could have 100% abortion given we are told it is a woman's choice and if all women did for the sake of the argument, we could pretend it would have no consequences, even with one fifth to one sixth of pregnancies aborted in many western countries it is having a negative impact on society as each year the number of missing people from abortion grows in that society. The irony is immigration is then needed from regions with higher birth rates to fill jobs since the ratio of dependent people in society becomes a bigger burden on society as there are less younger people to do the jobs and pay taxes as the older generations retire, one consequence of smaller families is the rise in the retirement age.
    This lack of taxpayers leads to immigration being needed to fill the hole of the missing people which takes people who could maybe help their own country to another where the pay is better and standards of living higher.
    People can see the effect of immigration on politics in Europe with the rise of the far right and very right wing parties.
    The societal effects of abortion are clear, it is negative and that non sentient human life is vital to all of humanity. If we decided to just kill all non sentient human in any form, we would go extinct. Some treat it as if it is not vital to mankind

    Are you suggesting that due to falling pregnancy rates, and increasing population age, we should force people to continue with pregnancies they don't want?

    For ****s sake, do you even read what you write, or do you just fling words and hope they make sense?

    Love both, cos Bob needs his pension.


  • #6544
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that due to falling pregnancy rates, and increasing population age, we should force people to continue with pregnancies they don't want?

    For ****s sake, do you even read what you write, or do you just fling words and hope they make sense?

    Love both, cos Bob needs his pension.

    And he doesn't want any immigrants paying for it.


  • #6545
    gmisk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,391 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    applehunter wrote: »
    448539.JPG
    Okkkkk....thats nice...


  • #6546
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    I'd vote yes to putting that into the Constitution!

    To be fair, socks and sandals are enough of a contraceptive, and we already have a right to access them.

    Remember when contraceptives were going to ruin Ireland?


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  • #6547
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,922 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    To be fair, socks and sandals are enough of a contraceptive, and we already have a right to access them.

    Remember when contraceptives were going to ruin Ireland?

    Woman bringing condoms down from belfast on the train and waving them at the customs officers. Good times.


  • #6548
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Remember when contraceptives were going to ruin Ireland?

    Not that old, sorry :D:D


  • #6549
    BarleySweets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 198 ✭✭BarleySweets


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    It's definitely available up to a point in Iran, but not "on demand"

    Yep, not available on demand in a lot of the more religiously conservative countries but the Islamic view on the unborn is the polar opposite of the Christian view: save the unborn if you can but the mother’s life is more important than the life of the unborn. So following that ideal, abortion is available to at least that level in all Muslim countries, with the more lax/secular countries allowing more levels of “on demand”-ness depending on how lax/secular their general population happens to be.

    (As with all third-world-ish countries: if you’ve got cash, connections, or both, you’ll get an abortion if you want one because laws and restrictions are for poor people. But, no matter where you are and no matter how rich or poor, every mother gets access to, at the very least, an abortion if her life is threatened by a pregnancy.)


  • #6550
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,922 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    BarleySweets wrote: »
    Yep, not available on demand in a lot of the more religiously conservative countries but the Islamic view on the unborn is the polar opposite of the Christian view: save the unborn if you can but the mother’s life is more important than the life of the unborn. So following that ideal, abortion is available to at least that level in all Muslim countries, with the more lax/secular countries allowing more levels of “on demand”-ness depending on how lax/secular their general population happens to be.

    (As with all third-world-ish countries: if you’ve got cash, connections, or both, you’ll get an abortion if you want one because laws and restrictions are for poor people. But, no matter where you are and no matter how rich or poor, every mother gets access to, at the very least, an abortion if her life is threatened by a pregnancy.)

    so the same as here then?


  • #6551
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    RobertKK wrote: »
    Being unborn is just one stage of life. It is as important as all the other stages of life for the human being and for all the human race.

    That sounds great, but there are plenty of examples in our law and society where the unborn are not regarded as being as important as all other stages of life.

    In our constitution, the unborn's right to life is secondary to the freedom to travel; there's no equivalent constitutional provision for the right to life of the born. Every year, hundreds of women of women import pills for illegal abortions but no one is calling for their prosecution. In fact, some on the No side have called for these women to be decriminalised. Imagine the reaction if the same happened for homicides. And some unborn have no constitutional or legal protection whatsoever; nobody bats an eyelid to that.

    How can you advocate a No vote on the basis that the unborn is the same as the rest of us, when a No vote perpetuates a status quo in which the unborn is not the same as the rest of us?
    RobertKK wrote: »
    If it was not just as important as a born life, otherwise we could have 100% abortion given we are told it is a woman's choice and if all women did for the sake of the argument, we could pretend it would have no consequences, even with one fifth to one sixth of pregnancies aborted in many western countries it is having a negative impact on society as each year the number of missing people from abortion grows in that society. The irony is immigration is then needed from regions with higher birth rates to fill jobs since the ratio of dependent people in society becomes a bigger burden on society as there are less younger people to do the jobs and pay taxes as the older generations retire, one consequence of smaller families is the rise in the retirement age.
    This lack of taxpayers leads to immigration being needed to fill the hole of the missing people which takes people who could maybe help their own country to another where the pay is better and standards of living higher.
    People can see the effect of immigration on politics in Europe with the rise of the far right and very right wing parties.
    The societal effects of abortion are clear, it is negative and that non sentient human life is vital to all of humanity. If we decided to just kill all non sentient human in any form, we would go extinct. Some treat it as if it is not vital to mankind.

    So you're saying legalising something that women are already doing will lead to the downfall of society. That sounds eerily similar to arguments made against previous societal changes. :rolleyes:
    Hello Divorce Goodbye Daddy
    Lol


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  • #6552
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    BarleySweets wrote: »
    the Islamic view on the unborn is the polar opposite of the Christian view: save the unborn if you can but the mother’s life is more important than the life of the unborn.

    This is not really the Christian view, it is historically the Roman Catholic view. Every other Christian church was opposed to the 8th back in 1983 for this reason.

    (Of course, that does not mean the others are pro-abortion).


  • #6553
    BarleySweets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 198 ✭✭BarleySweets


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    so the same as here then?

    In a way (because yeah, Irish women need to be able to afford to travel to the UKto access an abortion or even to buy the pills and have them shipped here) but not really, unless Irish women can rock up to an Irish hospital/clinic and pull strings to get an abortion? As far as I know, it’s just totally not available here unless the mother is literally going to be the next Savita and there are a number of doctors ready to go to court to prove that, right?


  • #6554
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,922 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    BarleySweets wrote: »
    In a way (because yeah, Irish women need to be able to afford to travel to the UKto access an abortion or even to buy the pills and have them shipped here) but not really, unless Irish women can rock up to an Irish hospital/clinic and pull strings to get an abortion? As far as I know, it’s just totally not available here unless the mother is literally going to be the next Savita and there are a number of doctors ready to go to court to prove that, right?

    no that is true but being poor makes it a lot more difficult for an irish woman to get a abortion.


  • #6555
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    That's not what I asked, no deflections here.

    Do you think that the image RobertKK posted is an exact representation of what an actual 12 week fetus (the one I posted for reference) looks like, yes or no?

    That's the question I asked, I didn't ask for a whole spiel behind it, I asked if you thought it was accurate. Why deflect?

    I don't know, but I would imagine if one is real and one is a model of what a foetus looks like, i'd imagine the real one is more accurate.

    Even if both photos show a model of what a foetus looks like rather than an actual foetus, it doesn't take away from the issue that it is a living being, and for the abortion to be successful, its life has to be ended.

    Why does the stage of development matter, unless you are arguing that its ok to end its life, on the basis of its size.

    No matter what size it is, it is a living being, that if not aborted, will undergo human development before and after birth.

    In both stages of development, depicted in the photos - even if one photo is a real photo and one photo is a model of what a foetus looks like - a foetus is a living being, and in abortion its life is ended.

    If not aborted, and its life not ended, if will undergo human development before and after birth.


  • #6556
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #6557
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,363 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Yes biologically, it is our biology that gives rise to the possibility of humanity in terms of morals, rights, etc....

    That is reductionist though. And why even stop there. It it chemistry that gives rise to the possibility of our biology. It is physics that gives rise to the possibility of chemistry. And so forth.

    And physics, chemistry and biology is in play all over the world, throughout the kingdoms of flora and fauna around us. I see no reason to revere it in isolation, or give any of it rights just for the sake of it.

    No the source of rights and morals and ethics appears to be human sentience and consciousness (except of course to those people who subscribe to the entirely unsubstantiated notion of there being a god). The application of them is done by sentience and consciousness. The business rights and morality are in is the mediation of the actions and well being of sentient and conscious creatures.

    And in the light of all that, in the context of abortion, I see no reason to afford any rights.... or moral and ethical concern.... to a 12 week old fetus. Even in isolation. Let alone relative to the rights, choices, freedoms and well being of the only ACTUAL conscious sentient agent in the equation. The pregnant woman.

    And I think vague words that encompass much like "biology" moves us away from the substance of that point and into more handy wavy arbitrary territory where no resolution or progress is likely to be found.


  • #6558
    BarleySweets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 198 ✭✭BarleySweets


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    This is not really the Christian view, it is historically the Roman Catholic view. Every other Christian church was opposed to the 8th back in 1983 for this reason.

    (Of course, that does not mean the others are pro-abortion).

    Tell that to Teresa May’s non-Catholic pals north of the border! They’d have you believe that Roman Catholics don’t just love abortions but we eat babies for our tea every Sunday!

    Ah yeah the Catholics are hardline anti but the prods are no different even if they weren’t in favor of the 8th. Most of the American cash being funneled over here to fund PL activities appears to be coming from Protestant communities rather than Catholic ones.

    That’s why I lumped in all Christians as opposing abortion, because per-capita, relative to Muslims, it’s practically all practicing Christians who hold the belief that the life of the unborn takes preference with varying levels of how much they want to tolerate abortion depending pretty much on how pious they are; the most pious of both Catholics & Protestants being hardline anti abortion, all the way up to lax Protestants who’d be open to tolerating “lifestyle abortions”. On the other hand: I, a heathen, don’t just tolerate “lifestyle abortions”, I’d encourage “lifestyle abortions” because why should anyone expect a woman to become a mother if she doesn’t want to?!

    Whereas 100% of Muslims believe everything from lifestyle abortions if they’re religiously lax, but at the very least, even the most hardline pious Muslims will believe that abortion is a preferable outcome to the mother dying while pregnant.


  • #6559
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,363 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Being unborn is just one stage of life. It is as important as all the other stages of life for the human being and for all the human race.

    At a marco level it is important to the human race, clearly. That is somewhat stating the blatantly obvious. At a micro level however a single stage of life in a single individual is not important in the slightest.

    However you appeal to the very thing that I make central to the entire argument. What makes something "important"? It is not important to the universe. The universe could not care less. Actually caring about things, thinking them important or relevant or valuable.... that comes from consciousness and sentience. Ours.

    Every where you turn in this debate, every argument you (try to) make in it.... as soon as we dig into it we find the values and relevance comes from the very thing the 12 week old fetus does not have.

    What does it mean to value anything, what does the valuing, and what is it we should value? I think the answer to this lies in the well being of sentient creatures. And it is entirely and solely to the well being of sentient creatures our policies and agendas should orient.

    The pregnant woman is an entirely conscious and sentient agent.

    The 12 week old fetus is not, and does not even have yet many of the pre-requisites of being one.

    So I entirely value the choices, freedoms and well being of the woman. I do not value any of it for a fetus. And you appear ENTIRELY unable to explain why I might or should.
    RobertKK wrote: »
    The irony is immigration is then needed

    Bully for them. If demographics are a problem for a country they should of course find ways to work on that. But that does not place any onus on people who do not want to have a child to do so.

    To take that approach you would do what all too many right wing christian groups do..... basically reduce women to nothing but societies incubators that should put out and shut up. In fact I was only listening to former White Supremacist Christian Picciolini talk about how that was EXACTLY the attitude his old cohort used to have to women. Their sole role in life was to produce more white male warriors for the herd.

    You can keep that attitude, along with your similarly foundation fear of immigration. No one here wants either I suspect.
    RobertKK wrote: »
    The societal effects of abortion are clear, it is negative and that non sentient human life is vital to all of humanity. If we decided to just kill all non sentient human in any form, we would go extinct. Some treat it as if it is not vital to mankind.

    That is just a bull and tosh little narrative. To go extinct our species would have to reach %s of abortion that are unimaginable by the standards of today. Abortion when it comes to pregnancy is currently BY FAR the exception not the rule and it would take so many changes to human society and the human narrative to reverse that dynamic that many other things are likely to kill us off before we even reach that stage.

    But similar to my previous attempts to ask you for your workings behind an assertion, I am going to assume you have diddly squat of the sort to offer for this one too. The simple fact is NO ONE is "deciding to just kill all non sentient human in any form". What they ARE doing is saying we should have that OPTION at an individual level when it is required. And taking that option is, as I said, far more the exception than the rule.

    The reality you hide from in every post is that the pro choice and anti choice side of this debate SHARE the common goal of having little or no abortion in society. It does not serve your agenda to acknowledge that fact. And the well being of woman AND babies is not at all served by people of your ilk refusing to acknowledge that. But it remains a fact none the less.


  • #6560
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,187 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    I always thought Muslims considered abortion to be haram (not sure on the spelling) or forbidden. Unless the father or husband decided it was necessary in which case the woman doesn't have choice.


  • #6561
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    I always thought Muslims considered abortion to be haram (not sure on the spelling) or forbidden. Unless the father or husband decided it was necessary in which case the woman doesn't have choice.

    I think in muslim countries it really depends on what regime is running the show at any given time, some are more/less liberal than others


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  • #6562
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    horseburger wrote: »
    I don't know, but I would imagine if one is real and one is a model of what a foetus looks like, i'd imagine the real one is more accurate.

    Even if both photos show a model of what a foetus looks like rather than an actual foetus, it doesn't take away from the issue that it is a living being, and for the abortion to be successful, its life has to be ended.

    Why does the stage of development matter, unless you are arguing that its ok to send its life, on the basis of its size.

    No matter what size it is, it is a living being, that if not aborted, will undergo human development before and after birth.

    In both stages of development, depicted in the photos - even if one photo is a real photo and one photo is a model of what a foetus looks like - a foetus is a living being, and in abortion its life is ended.

    If not aborted, and its life not ended, if will undergo human development before and after birth.

    One is real, the other is a completely inaccurate representation of what the real fetus looks like.

    Look at those two photos, are you telling me that RobertKK was posting a factual picture by saying "this is what an unborn 12 week fetus looks like"? Are you telling me that you do not see massive, significant differences between the two?

    I don't give a toss about your pro-life mantra spiel, I'm asking you a question and you are avoiding giving definitive answer.

    You're purposefully deflecting here, is RobertKK's image an accurate representation of the actual 12 week fetus image I posted, yes or no?

    Answer the question I am asking you, definitively, examine the two pictures, tell me your findings.


  • #6563
    BarleySweets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 198 ✭✭BarleySweets


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    I always thought Muslims considered abortion to be haram (not sure on the spelling) or forbidden. Unless the father or husband decided it was necessary in which case the woman doesn't have choice.

    Not everything is haram in Islam lol

    But no, you had it wrong. According to the Koran, if a choice has to be made between the life of a mother or her unborn baby, the Koran dictates that every effort must be used to save the mother’s life. This guarantees abortion in cases where women develop life-threatening issues related to their pregnancy for all Muslims. (The religion has no guidance on abortions in any other situation, which leaves it up to personal/community interpretation).

    So you tend to find that conservative & pious Muslims will limit abortion to only being available when absolutely necessary with more tolerance for wider availability for abortion as the people/community become less strictly religious.

    Regarding male consent: As with conservative/pious populations of pretty much any faith, this conservatism comes tagged along with a healthy dose of patriarchy too, leading to a lot of religiously strict countries requiring male consent for all sorts of aspects a a woman’s life (not just for abortion). It’s not like these populations are singularly pious however, common sense prevails. The male consent requirements would be laws or rules, and as with all laws and rules, they only apply if someone reports a breach so you’ll likely find a situation where unspoken access to abortion is available to pretty much everyone who has the means. Totally illegal, technically, but as long as nobody gets caught, who cares, eh? People look out for each other no matter what god they pray to. EDIT: Just wanted to add that the fundamental experiences of women across the world is similar regarding abortion in a strict country. Irish women looked out for each other in exactly the same way regarding abortion, be it backroom-abortions or traveling to England: information and funds shared among friends to help a friend in need.


  • #6564
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    Back to the bare bones of it, the 8th is unfit for purpose.

    It causes undue harm, it didn't do what it was supposed to, and did what it was supposed to prevent.

    Whatever your position on prolife/prochoice, it needs to be repealed.


  • #6565
    BarleySweets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 198 ✭✭BarleySweets


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    Back to the bare bones of it, the 8th is unfit for purpose.

    It causes undue harm, it didn't do what it was supposed to, and did what it was supposed to prevent.

    Whatever your position on prolife/prochoice, it needs to be repealed.

    Agreed. I find it hard to believe anybody could disagree with this!


  • #6566
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    I can't find the post but I believe someone asked this morning or last night if AH was representative of the general public with regards to the poll results thus far.

    In 2015 for SSM the 'yes' vote AH poll was 9% higher than the actual results (71% vs 62%), which is somewhat interesting as despite how much the 'no' crowd in 2018 have been trying to push the narrative that "this one is different, far less people will favour access to abortions than favoured SSM", on AH 'yes' to repealing the 8th is actually polling higher than SSM was in 2015 (73% vs 71%).

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057426700


  • #6567
    Zerbini Blewitt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭Zerbini Blewitt


    A neutral text based discussion platform like this really is kryptonite to the forced-birth side of this maternal healthcare abomination (& abortion) amendment issue.

    On TV or radio they can talk 90 to the dozen and still sound plausible to people not familiar with the history of this (reason v 10th century theocracy) debate stretching back…since forever.

    Here however…it’s different.

    On today’s evidence alone, if it was a boxing match – not only would the referee stop the fight in the first round but the forced-birther (p-l) participant would be taken out of the ring in a stretcher, straight into a hospital intensive care unit.

    It’s pitiful really...


  • #6568
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,922 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Zerbini Blewitt wrote: »
    A neutral text based platform like this really is kryptonite to the forced-birth side of this maternal healthcare abomination (& abortion) amendment issue.

    On TV or radio they can talk 90 to the dozen and still sound plausible to people not familiar with the history of this (reason v 10th century theocracy) debate stretching back…since forever.

    Here however…it’s different.

    On today’s evidence alone, if it was a boxing match – not only would the referee stop the fight in the first round but the forced-birther (p-l) participant would be taken out of the ring in a stretcher, straight into a hospital intensive care unit.

    It’s pitiful really...

    tenor.gif?itemid=5541443


  • #6569
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Do you not think it's interesting or relevant that the Minister for Children (and that's an appointment beyond satire) is proposing a measure to increase the birth rate in the face of a referendum that would likely lead to more abortions if passed?

    Has it not crossed your mind to consider, maybe address, any post before dismissing it?

    All of the available evidence shows that a more liberal abortion regime does not cause an increase in abortions.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6570
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    One is real, the other is a completely inaccurate representation of what the real fetus looks like.

    Look at those two photos, are you telling me that RobertKK was posting a factual picture by saying "this is what an unborn 12 week fetus looks like"? Are you telling me that you do not see massive, significant differences between the two?

    I don't give a toss about your pro-life mantra spiel, I'm asking you a question and you are avoiding giving definitive answer.

    You're purposefully deflecting here, is RobertKK's image an accurate representation of the actual 12 week fetus image I posted, yes or no?

    Answer the question I am asking you, definitively, examine the two pictures, tell me your findings.

    I already said to you that it doesn't really impact on the issue of abortion, if both images are fake.

    If you are arguing that the model is an inaccurate representation of the size of the foetus, which it might be, it doesn't impact on the debate, because no matter if both images are an inaccurate representation, abortion still involves the ending of life, regardless of the stage of its human life cycle deveopment.

    If you are saying that it is ok to end the life of a foetus at an earlier stage of pregnancy, but not at a later stage, why would that be?

    The life of the foetus will still be ended, so I don't really see why - if abortion is advocated - it is more acceptable to end its life on the basis that it is at an earlier stage of development than later.

    What exactly are you hoping I will say?


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  • #6571
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I read repeal people say we must talk to people and answer their questions if they are not voting for repeal.
    Then I read the above...it is like the repeal shield where people really just wants an echo chamber.

    Not at all.

    There are posters here who come in. They ask questions. The questions get answered. They ask again. They get answered again. They ask again. Its a way of responding to trollish behaviour so that the trolls dont get fed and other posters dont waste time.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



This discussion has been closed.
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