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Is Islam right for Ireland?

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  • #62
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Name a Muslim country where homosexuality is legal.

    This is the thing that I don't understand. It tends to be those on the left who are all for immigration, and have no qualms about Islamic immigration. The very same people who during the Same-sex Marriage referendum would label anyone who was against the referendum as "homophobic".

    Yet gay rights are essentially non-existent in the Muslim world, and even in Britain the majority of muslims polled believe that homosexuality should be illegal altogether, never mind not allowing gay people to marry.

    The reason I dislike Muslim immigration is because I am a social liberal, and Islam is not a socially liberal religion. I wonder how many Muslims would vote to Repeal the 8th.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law


  • #63
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Turkey

    Ah Turkey, were the police fire rubber bullets at attendants of Gay pride events.


  • #64
    murpho999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,792 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Ah Turkey, were the police fire rubber bullets at attendants of Gay pride events.

    That's not the point. By law it's legal, discrimination is another matter.

    It's only been legal here since 1993, so neither Ireland or Catholicism have a great history on this despite recent improvements.


  • #65
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    murpho999 wrote: »
    That's not the point. By law it's legal, discrimination is another matter.

    It's only been legal here since 1993, so Ireland does or Catholicism does not have a great history on this despite recent improvements.

    I understand you were answering the question posed. But discrimination IS the matter. The reason gay people were descriminated against was largely in part due to Catholicisms view of gay people i.e. it is a sin. Islam is no different, and you can be put to death for being gay in certain Islamic countries.

    I don't want to undo all the good that has been only so recently by allowing large groups of people who have totally different traditions and world views into my country.


  • #66
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,666 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    I hate the fact that I dont know if this thread was started by a troll/shítposter, or someone genuine who wants to understand whats going on in Europe at the moment

    Shut down the debate with hyperbole, mistruth and deflection, why don't you? I'm surprised you didn't use the word islamophobia in your post too.
    If you don't know whether the OP is a troll or not, don't bring it up.


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  • #67
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Turkey

    Nice catch, and although Turkey is supposed to be a secular state, the same could be said of numerous other Muslim states (like Egypt), but homosexuality isn't legal there. Perhaps the reason for Turkey being the exception is due to its attempts to join the EU?

    However, Turkey is perhaps the only counterexample, and since it is becoming less secular, and cares less about attempting to join the EU, I wouldn't be surprised to see homosexuality becoming illegal again in the next few years.


  • #68
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Filmer Paradise wrote: »
    Link?

    A link to prove the poster lives in the Arabian Penisnula...?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #69
    Ush1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    In Pakistan, Islam works but in Ireland Islamabad.


  • #70
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Name a Muslim country where homosexuality is legal.

    I can name several "Christian" countries where it is illegal if you like


  • #71
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    This is the thing that I don't understand. It tends to be those on the left who are all for immigration, and have no qualms about Islamic immigration. The very same people who during the Same-sex Marriage referendum would label anyone who was against the referendum as "homophobic".

    Yet gay rights are essentially non-existent in the Muslim world, and even in Britain the majority of muslims polled believe that homosexuality should be illegal altogether, never mind not allowing gay people to marry.

    The reason I dislike Muslim immigration is because I am a social liberal, and Islam is not a socially liberal religion. I wonder how many Muslims would vote to Repeal the 8th.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

    The problem here is the use of the word immigration: yes, a lot of liberals would be comfortable with limited immigration. Somehow, though, this gets lost in translation and the majority of posts suddenly imply that EVERY liberal is completely in favour of unfettered open immigration, which is not usually the case.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,178 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Name a Muslim country where homosexuality is legal.

    kosovo.
    albania also


  • #73
    murpho999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,792 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    I understand you were answering the question posed. But discrimination IS the matter. The reason gay people were descriminated against was largely in part due to Catholicisms view of gay people i.e. it is a sin. Islam is no different, and you can be put to death for being gay in certain Islamic countries.

    I don't want to undo all the good that has been only so recently by allowing large groups of people who have totally different traditions and world views into my country.
    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Nice catch, and although Turkey is supposed to be a secular state, the same could be said of numerous other Muslim states (like Egypt), but homosexuality isn't legal there. Perhaps the reason for Turkey being the exception is due to its attempts to join the EU?

    However, Turkey is perhaps the only counterexample, and since it is becoming less secular, and cares less about attempting to join the EU, I wouldn't be surprised to see homosexuality becoming illegal again in the next few years.
    Well Catholicism and Islam are both against homosexuality but western countries do not follow any religion’s following on this.

    Immigration will not mean that Ireland will become Islamic and the people who come will have to adapt to the country they are in. The real issue is how these immigrants are treated and integrated into their new society. Prevention of enclaves or ghettos like you see in UK or France is what should be avoided so that in the long run the immigrants adapt whilst keeping their own identity. It’s very difficult to achieve though.

    Either way, it does not mean that they will become the dominant group.

    However, Turkey is perhaps the only counterexample, and since it is becoming less secular, and cares less about attempting to join the EU, I wouldn't be surprised to see homosexuality becoming illegal again in the next few years.

    Ataturk is the man who modernised Turkey and gave it secular laws but a lot of that is now being undone by Erdogan.

    Their homosexual laws are nothing to do with the EU , which I don’t think they will ever join. Definitely not fit to join at the moment as Erdogan is eroding democracy there.


  • #74
    Pepefrogok
    Site Banned Posts: 406 ✭✭Pepefrogok


    baylah17 wrote: »
    I can name several "Christian" countries where it is illegal if you like

    Do you not see the difference? Exception to the rule etc. Also what exactly is your motivation for trying to make homophobic countries and their shared religion/ideology seem less so by employing whataboutery?


  • #75
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    baylah17 wrote: »
    I can name several "Christian" countries where it is illegal if you like



    World_laws_pertaining_to_homosexual_relationships_and_expression.svg

    Yellow, Orange, and Red are illegal, brown is death penalty. Yellow indicates no arrests in last 3 years.


  • #76
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    baylah17 wrote: »
    I can name several "Christian" countries where it is illegal if you like

    Such as Uganda. Wouldn't be a big fan of immigration into Ireland from there either.


  • #77
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    The problem here is the use of the word immigration: yes, a lot of liberals would be comfortable with limited immigration. Somehow, though, this gets lost in translation and the majority of posts suddenly imply that EVERY liberal is completely in favour of unfettered open immigration, which is not usually the case.

    Most people I believe are in favour of limited immigration. But over the recent few years we have not seen limited immigration into Europe, and very little done to stop the numbers coming in.

    Britain has seen huge numbers of immigrants and I believe people see this happening and fear it happening here. I like the open borders within the EU it's immigration from outside the EU, and predominately from non-western countries that I don't want to see too much of, not that Ireland necessarily does at present.


  • #78
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,136 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    World_laws_pertaining_to_homosexual_relationships_and_expression.svg

    Yellow, Orange, and Red are illegal, brown is death penalty. Yellow indicates no arrests in last 3 years.

    Ironically, India was very tolerant of homosexuality until the laws and attitudes were changed during the British occupation.


  • #79
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 13,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Turkey


    It may be legal in Turkey but LGBT peoole are hugely oppressed and discriminated against there. The community largely is deep in the closet and any attempts to organise Pride events have been met with official and police resistance.

    Ergodan is turning Turkey from a secular state into an Islamist one. Sad.


  • #80
    Captain Flaps
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,836 ✭✭✭Captain Flaps


    James 007 wrote: »
    ather than been racist about it etc

    ...

    Tommy Robinson, former EDL

    Oh lol.


  • #81
    garbo speaks
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 300 ✭✭garbo speaks


    Islam is dangerous.


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  • #82
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,666 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Well Catholicism and Islam are both against homosexuality but western countries do not follow any religion’s following on this.
    .

    Yeah, but there is no death penalty imposed by the state for homosexuality in Ireland last I heard. In these countries it's another story.

    Afghanistan
    Brunei
    Iran
    Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant
    Mauritania, only applies to Muslim men
    Sudan for a third conviction
    Northern Nigeria where several states have adopted sharia law
    Yemen
    Saudi Arabia
    Qatar applies only to Muslims, for extramarital-sex regardless of the gender of the participants
    Somalia where several southern states have adopted sharia law


  • #83
    Summer In the City
    Closed Accounts Posts: 249 ✭✭Summer In the City


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Nice catch, and although Turkey is supposed to be a secular state, the same could be said of numerous other Muslim states (like Egypt), but homosexuality isn't legal there. Perhaps the reason for Turkey being the exception is due to its attempts to join the EU?

    However, Turkey is perhaps the only counterexample, and since it is becoming less secular, and cares less about attempting to join the EU, I wouldn't be surprised to see homosexuality becoming illegal again in the next few years.

    Its also legal in Jordan where the last time I checked they have no interest in joining the EU.


  • #84
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Tell me - what do you actually know about Islam outside of what you're read in tabloids?

    http://markhumphrys.com/polls.islam.html

    Should read up on this ...


  • #85
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    jaxxx wrote: »
    So... judging an entire group of people based on the actions of a few. Yeah. Good luck with that. Big difference between ordinary average Muslims and extremist Muslims.

    ^ Big difference between anything and an extremist form of same, let alone just singling out Islam.

    it IS the actions of a very few sure - but the problem is the amount of support and sympathy they get from the population of "moderate" Muslims.

    See the link I posted above...


  • #86
    Odhinn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,521 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    http://markhumphrys.com/polls.islam.html

    Should read up on this ...

    Why? You might as well link to some randomer on here.


  • #87
    murpho999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,792 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    It may be legal in Turkey but LGBT peoole are hugely oppressed and discriminated against there. The community largely is deep in the closet and any attempts to organise Pride events have been met with official and police resistance.

    Ergodan is turning Turkey from a secular state into an Islamist one. Sad.

    Agree 100% I was just pointing out a fact of legality.


  • #88
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,399 ✭✭✭eeguy


    garbo speaks wrote: »
    Islam is dangerous.

    Christianity is dangerous. Particularly Catholicism in Ireland.

    We and our previous generations are no different from those in other parts of the world.


  • #89
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    eeguy wrote: »
    Christianity is dangerous. Particularly Catholicism in Ireland.

    We and our previous generations are no different from those in other parts of the world.

    Except that there is no movement to modernise Islam, and bring it into the 20th/21st century. People who follow Islam are content to keep the existing structures of belief, and resist any suggestion of modernising it.

    Secondly, we've already been exposed to Catholicism, and rejected its notions as part of Church and state. However, Islam is making inroads within various European countries to allow their religious laws to have real meaning within the existing framework of laws. Precedence is far more dangerous in our culture than it is in others.

    Islam isn't particularly dangerous as long as we keep it at arms length. We've moved to the point where Catholicism is no longer respected or feared as it once was. We should be moving to place all religions into the same basket, and treat them equally. At a distance away from any real authority.


  • #90
    Summer In the City
    Closed Accounts Posts: 249 ✭✭Summer In the City


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    However, Islam is making inroads within various European countries to allow their religious laws to have real meaning within the existing framework of laws. Precedence is far more dangerous in our culture than it is in others.

    Do you have any examples of this?


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  • #91
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Summer In the City wrote: »
    Its also legal in Jordan where the last time I checked they have no interest in joining the EU.

    That's true, and apparently as far back as 1954! While the freedom of press isn't great in the country, otherwise it is one of the most progressive countries in the middle east.

    What has made Jordan different from its neighbors? :confused:
    eeguy wrote: »
    Christianity is dangerous. Particularly Catholicism in Ireland.

    We and our previous generations are no different from those in other parts of the world.

    The Catholic Church is a spent force in Ireland. Ireland grew up and shrugged off its autocratic rule.


This discussion has been closed.
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