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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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Comments

  • #6092
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    pleas advice wrote: »
    you on the beer aswell? contemplating having another one myself

    nah - just idly wondering if some are #paidbythewordcount


  • #6093
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    gctest50 wrote: »
    nah - just idly wondering if some are #paidbythewordcount

    #tommytiernanddaraobriainandjasonbyrneandmaevehigginsandelanortiernananandjohncollearyanddavemcsavagearerunningscaredofyourcomedicabilities


  • #6094
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I used to think that all the talk of bots etc was just some paranoid thinking.
    But I realise now, it's all true!
    It's the same drivel posted by someone who appears for a few days or weeks, later dissapears.
    Nonsense arguments, tangents all over the place. It'd just getting ridiculous.


  • #6095
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Do you not think it's interesting or relevant that the Minister for Children is proposing a measure to increase the birth rate in the face of a referendum that would likely lead to more abortions if passed?

    Now there are some posters I'd like to see:

    Your country needs you! To stay pregnant!

    (or you could do 14 years in jail!)


  • #6096
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    bubblypop wrote: »
    hey guys,
    just wondering when does campaining stop before a referendum?
    I am due home on the 19th but I think I may be too late to be involved then?

    Campaigning will happen right up to, and including, polling day. The largest canvasses in the marriage equality referendum were on the night before the referendum. And there was plenty of leafleting happening on the day itself. The only exception is that you can't do any kind of campaigning in or near a polling station on the day.


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  • #6097
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    Campaigning will happen right up to, and including, polling day. The largest canvasses in the marriage equality referendum were on the night before the referendum. And there was plenty of leafleting happening on the day itself. The only exception is that you can't do any kind of campaigning in or near a polling station on the day.

    Does the normal rules, one day before polling, not apply for referenda?


  • #6098
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Trasna1 wrote: »
    Theoretical governments actually. Governments get elected on broad manifestos. I've voted for a candidate I dont see eye to eye with fully politically, because voting insists on compromising and ranking your priorities.

    If Labour as a minority party in government has succeeded in changing the law to what they wanted to, it would be hard to argue that it was the will of the people when they were elected primarily in response to the economic crisis.

    They Constitution is all about tying the hands of future governments, it insists they consult the people instead of making laws to suit their own agenda.

    What a no vote actually does, apart from retaining the status quo, is insist the future governments directly consult the people on this issue.
    And thats why I will be voting yes.
    1 We elect legislators to legislate
    2 Abortion referenda in this country bring out the nasty side of it
    3 It shouldnt be in the constitution at all

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6099
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    horseburger, what's your opinion on the 8th amendment and how it impacts women, as opposed to your opinion on abortion?

    Expect Newspaper articles as a response

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6100
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    January wrote: »
    So, in the case where contraception fails, and the mother can't (or doesn't want to) have a child, what are the options there?

    Since you're back online now horseburger, would you mind answering my question now please.

    Could you also answer it Tickers


  • #6101
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Edward M wrote: »
    Does the normal rules, one day before polling, not apply for referenda?

    Its a media blackout not a canvassing blackout


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  • #6102
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    My understanding was that that after Savita Halappanavar's inquest we have the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act which is suppose to st out the circumstances when a woman can have an abortion. Does this not mitigate the health risk argument that is being put forward especially when the risk is as a result of the abortion rather than the pregnancy? In summary, what will repeal achieve that the Act doesn't if the argument for repeal is a healthcare issue?

    No.

    Only when her life is at risk not her health.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6103
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    ... They're still illegal if they're placed on ESB/eir poles.

    They still lack the publishers and printers name, all they do is list the campaigners names.

    Yeah if they are illegal then let Councils/Gardai/ESB deal with them.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6104
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    That's a but of a non sequitur as the debate isn't focused around women being forced to have c sections...

    The debate generally doesnt look at the wider implication of the 8th but it should.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6105
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    January wrote: »
    Since you're back online now horseburger, would you mind answering my question now please.

    Could you also answer it Tickers

    I already stated that I have a difficulty with the idea that a baby that is perfectly healthy, that would be born healthy would be aborted.

    I replied to a poster who stated that there was a risk to her life if she became pregnant, that if there is any risk to her life, that if she requests an aborted it should be approved

    I made this point with regard to abortion being granted on the grounds of a risk to suicide, that I wondered would doctors and psyciatrists might be inclined to err on the side of caution, and grant the abortion, so as there would not be any risk of the suicide occurring.

    Why make reference to me being back online? I don't question anyone for not being logged in for any amount of time.


  • #6106
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    The debate is not taking place within the context of women being forced to have c sections. For example, if legislation was introduced which addressed your concerns around medical consent, would you still be in favour of repealing the 8th?

    The debate is about the 8th. You asked why is it a healthcare issue!!

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6107
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    So if legislation was introduced that facilitated termination in cases where there is a risk to a woman's health would that not satisfy both sides of the debate? I think most rationale people would accept that the mothers health/life should be a priority. Would that type of legislation not mitigate the concerns of pro life advocates who believe that abortion is taking a human life. I think most people who would lean towards an anti abortion position would accept that in circumstances where a mothers health or life was in jeopardy.

    Such legislation would be unconstitutional because of the 8th!!!!!!!!

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6108
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Surely the HSE didn't take out an injunction to to perform a c section just for the craic! I'm going out on a limb here but I would hazard a guess and say that the doctors and staff in the HSE who applied for that injunction were doing so based on their professional judgement. We rely on doctors to make these type of judgements all the time because we recognise that this is part of their job. There are many examples of when doctors carry out procedures in operating theatres or in after serious car accidents where medical consent is not given but we rely on them as professionals to use their professional judgement.

    Are we really saying that we need to amend the 8th amendment because a woman may be forced to have a c section against her will, is that really the issue here?

    It is part of the issue yes that womens healthcare and consent in healthcare is adversely affected by the 8th

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6109
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    But rather than having a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment, could a referendum not be held to amend the text and add an article to the constitution that allowed for terminations in cases where the mothers health was at risk?

    Would you be willing to accept those circumstances?

    That just makes the constitution a complete mess and leaves us open to more court cases.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6110
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    I have but it seems that it's either all or nothing for both sides. If it were possible to amend the constitution rather than repealing the 8th but by amending the text or adding an article that gave precedence to the mothers health, would this not be amenable to both sides?

    No. It would create as many legal nightmares athe 8th has

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6111
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    horseburger wrote: »
    I already stated that I have a difficulty with the idea that a baby that is perfectly healthy, that would be born healthy would be aborted.

    I replied to a poster who stated that there was a risk to her life if she became pregnant, that if there is any risk to her life, that if she requests an aborted it should be approved

    I made this point with regard to abortion being granted on the grounds of a risk to suicide, that I wondered would doctors and psyciatrists might be inclined to err on the side of caution, and grant the abortion, so as there would not be any risk of the suicide occurring.

    Why make reference to me being back online? I don't question anyone for not being logged in for any amount of time.

    So what about my case where I was using contraception and have 4 children already. We can't afford another child, having another would mean my other already born children would have suffered because we wouldn't have had the means to feed and clothe or educate them all.

    So I choose between my already born children and the potential life growing inside me.

    What would you have done in my case


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  • #6112
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    The debate is about the 8th. You asked why is it a healthcare issue!!

    I think Tickers is referring to the use of the word healthcare as a euphemism to reference abortion.

    It isn't exactly healthcare when healthcare is usually described as medical practices that ensure the life keeps living, or at least to ease suffering of a life with a terminal condition, rather than deliberately ending that life, such as palliative care in cases of terminal illness.


  • #6113
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    But are we going to start legislating for marginal cases? The primary concern for pro choice advocates seems to be on health grounds. If those were addressed would this not account for the vast majority of instances that people are concerned about. How many women are impregnated as a result of being raped?
    These are not "marginal cases". These are womens lives.

    Can I make a suggestion. Have you read the facebook page "in her shoes"

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6114
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Edward M wrote: »
    Does the normal rules, one day before polling, not apply for referenda?

    Those rules only apply to media coverage. There have never been any rules about when campaigning stops, for elections or referendums, aside from the rules I mentioned about the polling station. In practice, there isn't any door to door canvassing on referendum day, if for no other reason you could be canvassing people who may have already voted.


  • #6115
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Journalists asks No campaigners what their plan is if No wins. Their (lack of) answers will (not) surprise you!!

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/anti-abortion-campaigners-dodging-the-real-question-1.3464698


  • #6116
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Let me ask you, if the woman wasn't raped, in a bad relationship, completed her education and was well off? Would you still be in favour of abortion?

    I would. Let the woman make a decision about what is best for her.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6117
    horseburger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭horseburger


    January wrote: »
    So what about my case where I was using contraception and have 4 children already. We can't afford another child, having another would mean my other already born children would have suffered because we wouldn't have had the means to feed and clothe or educate them all.

    So I choose between my already born children and the potential life growing inside me.

    What would you have done in my case

    I don't consider that economic grounds is a good reason for ending a life.

    I say this because economic issues are related to the policies implemented through government policy.

    Services and government policy should be improved to help families rather than the government policy dictating to families that they have to change their circumstances.

    This issue was raised in the recent documentary by Sally Phillips, where she was asked about what prospects her son would have, upon her death.

    She replied that abortion wasn't the answer, that the answer was an improvement in care and services.

    I think what she was saying could be stated in response to Brid Smith, in the episode of Vincent Browne on TV3 on 6th July 2017, where Brid Smith seemed to suggest that economic and social situations in terms of inequality in services and financial circumstances are reasons to have abortions.

    To keep joeytheparrot satisfied, I wont include the two links to the discussion, so if you want to see it you'll have to peruse youtube and the tv3 page.


  • #6118
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    Women already have that choice, repealing the 8th is not going to change that.

    They dont have that choice here in this country.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6119
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    It's not a checkmate, I just don't see the reason for the healthcare facade. It just clouds and confuses the issue further. If your in favour of abortion on request then just say so instead of taking the imaginary victim who has been raped or terminally ill and say "this is all abortions".

    Right so basically you asked us lots of questions and now want to blithely dismiss all the answers while completely misrepenting what everyone says.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #6120
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    horseburger wrote: »
    I don't consider that economic grounds is a good reason for ending a life.

    .

    Fine. Don't have an abortion yourself.

    Someone else's choice is their choice alone.


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  • #6121
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »
    So how will repeal address the health care issues mentioned?

    It gives the legislature the ability to legislate

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



This discussion has been closed.
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