Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

BBDBB · 15-04-2018 08:46AM

pjohnson wrote: »

I think we all know how you feel. You struggled with the justice from the start. Strange considering how some were saying there are no winners but now they are hounded out of the country people are "so delighted"

that glee will be short lived once it gets leaked how much both have been paid to go quietly and how much their new salaries will be at their new clubs.
Even if that amount is not 100% accurately reported

Fr Tod Umptious · 15-04-2018 08:52AM

BBDBB wrote: »

that glee will be short lived once it gets leaked how much both have been paid to go quietly and how much their new salaries will be at their new clubs.
Even if that amount is not 100% accurately reported

So at that point will people stop saying that their lives have been ruined ?

BBDBB · 15-04-2018 08:54AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

So at that point will people stop saying that their lives have been ruined ?

I doubt it, money isnt everything after all

Tell me how · 15-04-2018 08:59AM

BoJack Horseman wrote:

Who was lying. Yet manages to avoid punishment despite destroying the careers of others.

How was she lying?

There's a difference between subjective opinions and provable facts. The court of law is civilisations attempt to come a decision so everyone can proceed.

Because they weren't found guilty, doesn't make her a liar.

Wheeliebin30 · 15-04-2018 09:02AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think that it was their actions and behavior following those actions that ruined their careers.

What behavior and actions did they do that was illegal?

I’ll await your answer.

Fr Tod Umptious · 15-04-2018 09:03AM

BBDBB wrote: »

I doubt it, money isnt everything after all

Getting sacked is a situation they got themselves into, they are innocent of the crime, but as Jackon himself has said his

"behaviour has fallen far short of the values expected of me as an intentional player, a role model for the game of rugby"

That got his contract terminated but with compensation (we assume), but he still has the ability to earn a living as a professional elsewhere.

Their lives are far from ruined.

racso1975 · 15-04-2018 09:18AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

That got his contract terminated but with compensation (we assume), but he still has the ability to earn a living as a professional elsewhere.

Possibly not if they were released on the grounds of gross misconduct

Edit: They did my apologies

erica74 · 15-04-2018 09:18AM

I'm not really surprised by this decision, the brand are protecting their brand, they get to come out of this looking great, it looks like they have meted out the justice that many wanted and in the process make themselves look like they have values not in line with what the players did and said. It's really a win win for the brand, you can't deny that.

racso1975 · 15-04-2018 09:20AM

erica74 wrote: »

I'm not really surprised by this decision, the brand are protecting their brand, they get to come out of this looking great, it looks like they have meted out the justice that many wanted and in the process make themselves look like they have values not in line with what the players did and said. It's really a win win for the brand, you can't deny that.

I highly doubt that Erica I'd say they were disgusted that it was continually referred to as the Rugby rape trial

Wheeliebin30 · 15-04-2018 09:25AM

Jesus if employers found out what 99% of people say or do outside of work no one would be in work!!!

What is becoming of us I do wonder.

joe40 · 15-04-2018 09:28AM

ArthurDayne wrote: »

joe40 wrote: »

This is really not complicated. Your privacy is important and should be protected as indeed it is.
If your private conversations become public, for whatever reason, you have to own those comments. They are a reflection on you.
If they are offensive, damaging, illegal you have to own the consequences.
The fact they started out as private is no defence.
Just to be clear i'm talking about this in general, not this case specifically.

It is somewhat interesting that you opine that this point is not complicated -- yet, despite the apparent lack of complexity, I note that you did not answer the question. One imagines that, if you find this matter so straightforward, you could at least give a 'yes' or 'no' answer.

So I ask you again -- and while I appreciate you are under no obligation to answer me -- you have just said yourself that it is not complicated. I imagine then you can give me a Yes or No to the following, this now being the third time I have asked for an answer without response on this matter which is (as you say) not very complicated:

Would you be supportive of the following National Programme being implemented?

1. All citizens of the State shall submit their phones and other electronic devices to the nearest Garda station;

2. All devices will be screened along a rubric created by a panel of experts on public morality and decency. All social media companies will be legally ordered to store messages which are deleted so that they can be retrieved.;

3. Screening will include ALL private correspondence, including with family, spouses and friends.

4. All those who are found to have used terms or language in private conversation that can be deemed offensive to the public or a section of the public shall be automatically liable for expulsion from their jobs.

In one fell swoop -- all those who have used degrading and offensive language will be cast out of their jobs. Only the morally righteous shall remain and the workplaces of Ireland shall be purified. The battle to embed political correctness and moral perfection in private conversations will have been won.

Would you support this program?

Well I thought it was clear. I said "privacy is important and should be protected"
Therefore answer is a clear and unambiguous NO to your imaginary laws.

goz83 · 15-04-2018 09:30AM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

I am just so delighted.

Someone asked me do I agree with the verdict. Apparantly I am not allowed to say. Mods said to be very careful with wording.

But I am delighted that they got some punishment.

To other people on here saying they exchange similiar messages, they all sound like quite general jokes.

The msgs the rugby guys sent were about one specific girl, a girl who launched a rape investigation.

Their behaviour was appaliing. PJ has apologised twice for his own behaviour. He knows he was in the wrong

You’re allowed to say whether you personally think the verdict was right, or wrong. What you are not allowed do is call innocent men rapists. That would be defamatory. Of course, it would be helpful if you were able to back up your bias beliefs with material that, rather than speculation.

PJ sent one message, which I paraphrase as “there was plenty of spit”. Hardly grounds for any sort of punishment.

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that it was their actions and behavior following those actions that ruined their careers.

No. It was the actions and behaviour of the mob that ruined them. Lets be honest here. If those messages did not exist, the same mobs and echo chamber activists would have clung onto something else, real or imaginary. In their minds, justice would be served one way or another.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

So at that point will people stop saying that their lives have been ruined ?

People might stop, but their lives to some extent will always be affected by the allegations made against them.

Tell me how wrote: »

How was she lying?

There's a difference between subjective opinions and provable facts. The court of law is civilisations attempt to come a decision so everyone can proceed.

Because they weren't found guilty, doesn't make her a liar.

How was she not? It was reported that she changed her story several times and was caught out. The lads stories don’t align, but each of their stories remained the same even though there was some contradiction between them.

We can’t ignore that they were all intoxicated, so there is no surprise that some details were mixed up....but the extent of the complainants inaccuracies and changes were significant.

@ Appledreams15
care to explain why you say you hate mob mentality in one thread, yet revel in it here?

Sheep Shagger · 15-04-2018 09:31AM

Sindo reporting the two lads got paid off when their contracts were terminated...

https://www.her.ie/news/exit-negotiations-see-paddy-jackson-stuart-olding-paid-off-irfu-398741

Fr Tod Umptious · 15-04-2018 09:33AM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Jesus if employers found out what 99% of people say or do outside of work no one would be in work!!!

What is becoming of us I do wonder.

Nothing is becoming of us.

Professional sports people are not like you or I.

Their behaviour is viewed differently than ours, rightly or wrongly.

They are a brand in themselves, and in team sports they are part of the teams brand.

Jackson said it himself about the texts,

behaviour has fallen far short of the values expected of me as an intentional player, a role model for the game of rugby

goz83 · 15-04-2018 09:48AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Nothing is becoming of us.

Professional sports people are not like you or I.

Their behaviour is viewed differently than ours, rightly or wrongly.

They are a brand in themselves, and in team sports they are part of the teams brand.

Jackson said it himself about the texts,

behaviour has fallen far short of the values expected of me as an intentional player, a role model for the game of rugby

People keep bringing this up. It’s pretty obvious that Jackson was advised to say this, as the screams of the mob got louder. I don’t condone his behaviour by the way. But people are focusing on whatsapp messages and PJ only sent one, which wasn’t very descriptive. Olding sent a few and he is being targeted less. But olding released a statement after the aquittal, where PJ did not. Imo, that angered the mob and they held onto that.

racso1975 · 15-04-2018 09:54AM

goz83 wrote: »

People keep bringing this up. It’s pretty obvious that Jackson was advised to say this, as the screams of the mob got louder. I don’t condone his behaviour by the way. But people are focusing on whatsapp messages and PJ only sent one, which wasn’t very descriptive. Olding sent a few and he is being targeted less. But olding released a statement after the aquittal, where PJ did not. Imo, that angered the mob and they held onto that.

Or do you reckon it is just that PJ was better known then Olding? Think that a has a big part to play in it too. More of a household name? Do agree that a post statement might of helped as opposed to threatening to sue all around him

anthonyjmaher · 15-04-2018 09:54AM

The guys were found innocent of what they were charged. They sent a few stupid messages between themselves on what they thought was a private platform, and would never have become public only they were charged of a crime which they did not commit. They should have got a couple of further months on the bench as punishment and then been allowed to play again. The message that this sends is that if an angry mob of women just takes agin you (to further their own man hating agenda), then it is fair game for them to picket your place of work and have you fired. They should be ashamed of themselves.

I think the most dangerous thing about this case is that the woman is attributed very little responsibility for her actions in sexual encounters. And it is now fair game to retrospectively say that you were not a willing party to something that AT THE TIME you showed absolutely no objection to. If an independent witness had not been available to the defence, to say that everything looked consensual, these guys may well have gone down. All based on the fabrications of an embarrassed girl.

FrancieBrady · 15-04-2018 09:56AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Nothing is becoming of us.

Professional sports people are not like you or I.

Their behaviour is viewed differently than ours, rightly or wrongly.

They are a brand in themselves, and in team sports they are part of the teams brand.

Jackson said it himself about the texts,

behaviour has fallen far short of the values expected of me as an intentional player, a role model for the game of rugby

His statement was written for those who believe that juvenile, field of dreams tosh, who were the ones making the most noise, i.e. the mob.

FrancieBrady · 15-04-2018 09:58AM

Jackson heading to Clermont.
Olding heading to Exeter.

Brilliant, two good enough teams and still in the Irish public eye. Delighted.

Allinall · 15-04-2018 09:59AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

His statement was written for those who believe that juvenile, field of dreams tosh, who were the ones making the most noise, i.e. the mob.

How do you know that?

FrancieBrady · 15-04-2018 10:01AM

Allinall wrote: »

How do you know that?

Because it comes off the shelf, from a PR book called 'How To Buy Off The Mob With Simpering Apologetic Tosh'.

Silentcorner · 15-04-2018 10:03AM

anthonyjmaher wrote: »

The guys were found innocent of what they were charged. They sent a few stupid messages between themselves on what they thought was a private platform, and would never have become public only they were charged of a crime which they did not commit. They should have got a couple of further months on the bench as punishment and then been allowed to play again. The message that this sends is that if an angry mob of women just takes agin you (to further their own man hating agenda), then it is fair game for them to picket your place of work and have you fired. They should be ashamed of themselves.

I think the most dangerous thing about this case is that the woman is attributed very little responsibility for her actions in sexual encounters. And it is now fair game to retrospectively say that you were not a willing party to something that AT THE TIME you showed absolutely no objection to. If an independent witness had not been available to the defence, to say that everything looked consensual, these guys may well have gone down. All based on the fabrications of an embarrassed girl.

Embarrassed???? Is that how you would describe her reaction in that long taxi drive home. I wouldn't.

Silentcorner · 15-04-2018 10:05AM

Allinall wrote: »

How do you know that?

Don't pal...Francis thinks there is only one mob in all of this...he's not on his own either!!!

mfceiling · 15-04-2018 10:06AM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Embarrassed???? Is that how you would describe her reaction in that long taxi drive home. I wouldn't.

Can you tell me exactly what her reaction was and how long was the taxi journey home? An hour, 15 minutes?

Wheeliebin30 · 15-04-2018 10:08AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Nothing is becoming of us.

Professional sports people are not like you or I.

Their behaviour is viewed differently than ours, rightly or wrongly.

They are a brand in themselves, and in team sports they are part of the teams brand.

Jackson said it himself about the texts,

behaviour has fallen far short of the values expected of me as an intentional player, a role model for the game of rugby

A role model for a game that involves pounding, gouging, kicking, punching etc?

Give over with the somebody think of the kids nonsense.

It’s not up to these lads to show society how to live their lives.

What a load of nonsense.

FrancieBrady · 15-04-2018 10:09AM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Don't pal...Francis thinks there is only one mob in all of this...he's not on his own either!!!

Story is more or less dead Silentcorner. The mob has been silenced.
The lads get to play again a short plane ride away with nicely full bank accounts. We will all be able to watch their careers because they will be in the same leagues Ulster Connacht Munster and Leinster play in.
And hopefully we will get to see them play in Ireland again when Clermont and Exeter come for their away games.

Silentcorner · 15-04-2018 10:09AM

mfceiling wrote: »

Can you tell me exactly what her reaction was and how long was the taxi journey home? An hour, 15 minutes?

Go look for it yourself...it's all on the internet.

15-04-2018 10:10AM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

What behavior and actions did they do that was illegal?

I’ll await your answer.

Er, where did I say what they did was illegal?

Demeaning people isn’t illegal. Reprehensible, maybe.

Rugby is lauded as being a real mans sport. Real men don’t have their friends join in while they’re having sex with a girl. Real men concentrate on giving and receiving pleasure with their companion without the need of another’s help. Real men wouldn’t have a girl leave their bed in a distressed state. Nor would they feel the need to brag about their shagging greatness.

Silentcorner · 15-04-2018 10:10AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Story is more or less dead Silentcorner. The mob has been silenced.
The lads get to play again a short plane ride away with nicely full bank accounts. We will all be able to watch their careers because they will be in the same leagues Ulster Connacht Munster and Leinster play in.
And hopefully we will get to see them play in Ireland again when Clermont and Exeter come for their away games.

Alls well that ends well then!!

mfceiling · 15-04-2018 10:12AM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Go look for it yourself...it's all on the internet.

You seemed pretty confident of her "reaction" and of the length of "the long journey" home.

Links?

Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

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