Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

irishbucsfan · 14-04-2018 09:49AM

launish116 wrote: »

My point is why should the sponsors be able to throw weight behind a decision? When primary stakeholder/fans at Ulster arn’t?

I

Anyone in the world can throw their weight behind a decision in Irish rugby, a teenager in Malaysia could tweet that she is not very happy with Kieron Keane's tenure at Connacht, it just would have an infinitesimally small impact.

There's nothing stopping anyone from putting weight on the IRFU, you just need to be realistic about how much weight everyone has. Ulster fans starting their 209th boycott of Irish rugby, or talking nonsense about how great it'd be if they shut everything down and moved to be under the SRU just doesn't have as much weight as they might wish it would.

stephen_n · 14-04-2018 09:49AM

launish116 wrote: »

My point is why should the sponsors be able to throw weight behind a decision? When primary stakeholder/fans at Ulster arn’t?

I

Because without sponsors giving money to the IRFU, who in turn give money to Ulster Rugby. There is no club for fans to be stakeholders in. See how far Ulster Rugby would get with just the money from fans gate money, the answer is nowhere.

Also the fact it’s some fans is important too, there are also fans of Ulster who will be happy with this outcome too.

awec · 14-04-2018 09:51AM

jm08 wrote: »

While SO might have been able to pull off a reformed character because of his immediate apology, PJ would not be believeable after his statement after the court case. The apology came a bit late in the day. No one would take him serious.

I think their supporters did more harm than good as well with their campaign to keep him. Instead of saying they were found not guilty of rape, they missed the reason they are going is because of their attitude to women.

How do the IRFU plan on policing players attitude to women in private conversations in future?

The only reason anyone knows about these private conversations was the allegation of rape. It was proven that a rape did not happen.

Jackson and Olding are being shown the door as a side effect of being put on trial for a crime they did not commit.

irishbucsfan · 14-04-2018 09:55AM

awec wrote: »

How do the IRFU plan on policing players attitude to women in private conversations in future?

The only reason anyone knows about these private conversations was the allegation of rape. It was proven that a rape did not happen.

Jackson and Olding are being shown the door as a side effect of being put on trial for a crime they did not commit.

They're being shown the door because their own actions led to the complete destruction of their reputation across Ireland.

How do you police it? Exactly like this, but on top of that they'll absolutely introduce mandatory training for all their employees now as well I'm sure. I don't think they'll be doing anything too public about it.

launish116 · 14-04-2018 09:55AM

10-15k tickets bought each home game by fans! Pretty big stakeholder also. Sponsors will come and go loyal fans must be held on to!

The ball is in the IRFU’s court they force them out they better have adequate replacements! Not firefight for another season. I was mentioned the detriment of the female game, Ulster keep this downward spiral and there will be bigger issues for IRFU.

errlloyd · 14-04-2018 09:55AM

awec wrote: »

The only reason anyone knows about these private conversations was the allegation of rape. It was proven that a rape did not happen.

It was not proven that a rape didn't happen. This is getting ridiculous. We're all adults, and we now have more evidence than the jury had. We are all capable of evaluating it ourselves and assessing what facts are possible and what facts are likely. I know we can't discuss it, so I won't do a post detailing it anymore than that, but we know NOTHING for sure.

awec · 14-04-2018 09:59AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They're being shown the door because their own actions led to the complete destruction of their reputation across Ireland.

How do you police it? Exactly like this, but on top of that they'll absolutely introduce mandatory training for all their employees now as well I'm sure. I don't think they'll be doing anything too public about it.

This is being policed because private conversations became public as a result of a trial for a crime that did not happen. Is that the approach going forward? It’s only a problem if people find out about it?

Mandatory training. Lol.

I think there’s a certain level of delusion on here if people believe these sort of messages are an isolated thing.

jm08 · 14-04-2018 10:02AM

awec wrote: »

How do the IRFU plan on policing players attitude to women in private conversations in future?

The only reason anyone knows about these private conversations was the allegation of rape. It was proven that a rape did not happen.

Jackson and Olding are being shown the door as a side effect of being put on trial for a crime they did not commit.

The Provinces management, team mates etc. won't need to see private messages to know if a player's attitude to women isn't right from their lifestyle among other things.

UR must have known of the lifestyle of these lads and needs to do something about it such as maybe having more females involved in the team (medics, nutritionist etc).

By their poor lifestyle choices, they brought the whole sport of rugby into disrepute. That is why they are not staying in Ulster.

awec · 14-04-2018 10:06AM

jm08 wrote: »

The Provinces management, team mates etc. won't need to see private messages to know if a player's attitude to women isn't right from their lifestyle among other things.

UR must have known of the lifestyle of these lads and needs to do something about it such as maybe having more females involved in the team (medics, nutritionist etc).

By their poor lifestyle choices, they brought the whole sport of rugby into disrepute. That is why they are not staying in Ulster.

What poor lifestyle choices? Having a threesome?

I don’t even know where to begin with this nonsense.

Buer · 14-04-2018 10:08AM

errlloyd wrote: »

awec wrote: »

The only reason anyone knows about these private conversations was the allegation of rape. It was proven that a rape did not happen.

It was not proven that a rape didn't happen. This is getting ridiculous. We're all adults, and we now have more evidence than the jury had.

Do you actually believe you're more informed than the 11 people who sat in the room listening to every detail at length for 8 weeks?

We know what we've read in articles. There is so much more that goes into a verdict than snippets reported in the media.

I don't know what to believe. But there's no bloody way in hell any of us have more evidence than those jurors had.

launish116 · 14-04-2018 10:09AM

Contracts revoked confirmed by 42.ie

P_1 · 14-04-2018 10:11AM

Revoked. Yikes wasn't expecting that, surprised there was no mutual consent. You'd think they'd have a case to take them to the cleaners after that.

awec · 14-04-2018 10:11AM

We have more irrelevant “evidence” than the jury had. There is a reason the jury are prevented from seeing certain things, to ensure a fair trial.

The jury saw everything that was relevant to this trial in much more detail than we have.

The blood on the sheets for example, totally irrelevant to the trial and would easily be exploited by the prosecution. Jury don’t see it but it sure makes a nice story for the media.

jm08 · 14-04-2018 10:12AM

awec wrote: »

What poor lifestyle choices? Having a threesome?

I don’t even know where to begin with this nonsense.

Yes, picking up random women outside a nightclub and having threesomes with them isn't a healthy thing to do. Then there was the amount of alcohol they consumed. Even Willie John was impressed with the quantity.

P_1 · 14-04-2018 10:14AM

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/985098040657707008

Gilroy suspended till the 26th, in effect a 2 match ban for sending a text. Not sure I agree with that. He'll be back for Ulster's next match though

thomond2006 · 14-04-2018 10:14AM

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/41803.php

Following a review, conducted in the aftermath of recent court proceedings, the Irish Rugby Football Union and Ulster Rugby have revoked the contracts of Patrick Jackson and Stuart Olding with immediate effect.

n arriving at this decision, the Irish Rugby Football Union and Ulster Rugby acknowledge our responsibility and commitment to the core values of the game: Respect, Inclusivity and Integrity.

It has been agreed, as part of this commitment, to conduct an in-depth review of existing structures and educational programmes, within the game in Ireland, to ensure the importance of these core values is clearly understood, supported and practised at every level of the game

Utah_Saint · 14-04-2018 10:14AM

jm08 wrote: »

awec wrote: »

What poor lifestyle choices? Having a threesome?

I don’t even know where to begin with this nonsense.

Yes, picking up random women outside a nightclub and having threesomes with them isn't a healthy thing to do.

Are you Israel falou?

Next you'll be telling me "TV is the Devil"

awec · 14-04-2018 10:15AM

jm08 wrote: »

Yes, picking up random women outside a nightclub and having threesomes with them isn't a healthy thing to do. Then there was the amount of alcohol they consumed. Even Willie John was impressed with the quantity.

From a Munster supporter too!

Buer · 14-04-2018 10:17AM

jm08 wrote: »

awec wrote: »

What poor lifestyle choices? Having a threesome?

I don’t even know where to begin with this nonsense.

Yes, picking up random women outside a nightclub and having threesomes with them isn't a healthy thing to do. Then there was the amount of alcohol they consumed. Even Willie John was impressed with the quantity.

This is incredibly naive.

jacothelad · 14-04-2018 10:18AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ulster should be given full support in bringing in a replacement at 10 for sure, although not sure anyone is available for next season, so it may be that something like Carberry for a year might be necessary while Ulster sort out the long term solution.

I'd imagine it'll be difficult enough to sort out a solution before a head coach is appointed anyway, especially given the relationship between that position and the coach. I don't think even Carberry would be too interested until that is sorted.

Carbery would be mad to even think it...and I'm sure he won't. Given the likely unavailability of a replacement fo Jackson's ability, Ulster should take this as an opportunity to bring on the young 10s. in the province. Angus Curtis, Lowry, Fox. I hope McPhillips stays but it is rumoured he is back to Newcastle next season. I suppose that if he sees no future success on the horizon in Ireland then he may as well move back to England.

Buer wrote: »

Do you actually believe you're more informed than the 11 people who sat in the room listening to every detail at length for 8 weeks?

We know what we've read in articles. There is so much more that goes into a verdict than snippets reported in the media.

I don't know what to believe. But there's no bloody way in hell any of us have more evidence than those jurors had.

None of us who were absent from every single second of the trial have a baldy notion of the truth. The jury did and acquitted the men in jig time. You have forgotten the golden rule for many with similar views. It goes something along the lines of 'I know the truth without evidence, they have been accused therefore they are guilty.'

irishbucsfan · 14-04-2018 10:19AM

awec wrote: »

This is being policed because private conversations became public as a result of a trial for a crime that did not happen. Is that the approach going forward? It’s only a problem if people find out about it?

I think there’s a certain level of delusion on here if people believe these sort of messages are an isolated thing.

There's a massive amount of delusion, but it's not on here.

These messages aren't an isolated thing. Noone has said they think they are. I've played rugby all my life so I don't really think you think that I think they're an isolated thing. But that doesn't mean they acceptable, and it doesn't mean that people are not absolutely entitled to being angry about them.

We're lucky in Ireland that rugby doesn't have the same reputation that it has in some other countries. I think some people in Ireland are quite unaware of the reputation that it has, and that rugby players have, in England or some other places. It has a reputation as a private school sport here as well, but the behaviour of players is not seen in remotely the same way. Social media has made the world a smaller place and so I think that reputation has started to bleed across the Irish sea, its important that we do everything in our power to defend ourselves from it. Some of the reputation it has gained among people is completely undeserved, and is entirely due to the fact that people don't understand that the things that happen in English universities and some clubs really do not happen here as much. Some of the reputation is deserved, and we are all adults and we should be capable of addressing that and stopping it stone dead, rather than running away from it.

awec wrote: »

Mandatory training. Lol.

We're also, at least those of us actively involved, in a great position where we can both teach and learn within the sport of rugby. When parents come to underage coaches with concerns about things like safety, we are very good at enabling those coaches to be able to address those concerns. It's important we address all of their concerns equally, and this is going to be an area where underage coaches will need to be educated and ultimately become educators themselves.

I remember when I was a younger player, in uni, I was 'sexually assaulted'. I put it in quotation marks because I never saw it that way until much later. I was at a house party after a game and an older girl grabbed me. I wasn't really fussed that much at all because I was much bigger so I told her to cop on and moved on, I never even thought about it. It wasn't until years later in conversation with someone about this topic that I considered what actually happened and realised that if the roles had been reversed it would have been incredibly intimidating and potentially traumatic. This is something that happens far more than it should and if I'd been better educated on the topic (or even educated at all!) I would have understood that at the time, maybe if the other party had been educated it wouldn't have happened. Most importantly, maybe if we can be a bit smarter with how we educate people on this topic it can prevent a lot of avoidable problems, rather than just laughing off the idea of educating people at all.

jm08 · 14-04-2018 10:19AM

awec wrote: »

From a Munster supporter too!

A good example of how the actions of some players attaches itself to their supporters.

PJ & SO were so sloppy they didn't even have a condom.

launish116 · 14-04-2018 10:19AM

Talk about destroying any hype from last nights game!

awec · 14-04-2018 10:21AM

jm08 wrote: »

A good example of how the actions of some players attaches itself to their supports.

PJ & SO were so sloppy they didn't even have a condom.

You do realise what I was referring to when I said “from a Munster supporter”, right?

irishbucsfan · 14-04-2018 10:22AM

P_1 wrote: »

Revoked. Yikes wasn't expecting that, surprised there was no mutual consent. You'd think they'd have a case to take them to the cleaners after that.

They'll have no case at all, if their contracts include disrepute clauses that they almost certainly do.

FrancieBrady · 14-04-2018 10:22AM

jm08 wrote: »

A good example of how the actions of some players attaches itself to their supports.

PJ & SO were so sloppy they didn't even have a condom.

Maybe because they hadn't planned on having sex?
Kinda demolishes the story of predatory males waiting to take advantage.

Hurrache · 14-04-2018 10:23AM

awec wrote: »

Mandatory training. Lol.

I think there’s a certain level of delusion on here if people believe these sort of messages are an isolated thing.

And there's the problem isn't it? It was a pathetic way to discuss women, no matter what act they were involved in.

jm08 · 14-04-2018 10:28AM

awec wrote: »

You do realise what I was referring to when I said “from a Munster supporter”, right?

I thought I did. Maybe you better say what you meant.

durthacht · 14-04-2018 10:28AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/41803.php

Following a review, conducted in the aftermath of recent court proceedings, the Irish Rugby Football Union and Ulster Rugby have revoked the contracts of Patrick Jackson and Stuart Olding with immediate effect.

n arriving at this decision, the Irish Rugby Football Union and Ulster Rugby acknowledge our responsibility and commitment to the core values of the game: Respect, Inclusivity and Integrity.

It has been agreed, as part of this commitment, to conduct an in-depth review of existing structures and educational programmes, within the game in Ireland, to ensure the importance of these core values is clearly understood, supported and practised at every level of the game

Correct decision IMO.

14-04-2018 10:29AM

If that decision was made unilaterally by the IRFU then there is a part of me that hopes Jackson takes them to the absolute cleaners.

Obviously love Irish rugby and don't want to see it damaged but would be disgusted if they didn't engage in a dialogue. I hope this statement was made in agreement with the players and they are sufficiently compensated.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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