Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

joseywhales · 13-04-2018 10:07PM

Try_harder wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Banks are the new morality police...who knew...

Didnt a former BOI CEO have to resign after his browser was found had visited a page with an ad for an escort agency. Comms at play their too

In fairness, its their money to do with whatever they wish, its a corporation, you can expect cynicism, corporations live off it. The only way to fight them on it is to find another competitor willing to pay more.

joseywhales · 13-04-2018 10:10PM

The Black Stags wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Find it very hard to listen to BOI talk ****e about core values. truth is they are scared of negative kick back and what it means for the bottom line.

Yes true, but this is how companies operate. They do not care for any law or rule or moral code. All that matters is the bottom line. If they can make more money breaking the law than they will get fined then they will do just that - as we've all seen over the years.
They are not moral entities, they do not care about any of that - unless it affects profits. I'm sure the people with plenty of time on their hands to tweet all day have been sending in a huge amount of threats to the sponsors to get PJ and SO off the team.
As someone said earlier it is a societal issue, won't be fixed today or tomorrow as it needs an entire culture to change drastically - no one his the vision for what it should change to, there is no road or path to follow just wishy-washy language.

If you profit directly or indirectly from the returns on equity then you are just as responsible, this is how the world works.

Former Former · 13-04-2018 10:11PM

Yeah, Bank of Ireland is the problem in all this.

FrancieBrady · 13-04-2018 10:20PM

Former Former wrote: »

Yeah, Bank of Ireland is the problem in all this.

Well they are part of it.
It so typically Irish. As long as they don't play rugby in Ireland we can all feel morally righteous.
Banks and bankers were allowed to redeem themselves, but not these guys it seems. Hypocrisy.

Clegg · 13-04-2018 10:33PM

Cometh the hour

Cometh the Dog

mfceiling · 13-04-2018 10:41PM

To be fair to Bank of Ireland they were "concerned" over the conduct issues of the trial.

I wonder how concerned they were with the people who took their own lives after being taken off tracker mortgages and put on to more expensive fixed rate ones?

The figure in case you are wondering is €250. That was the "compensation" offered to my work mate for the 7 years he was overcharged.

Conduct issues?

Dubinusa · 13-04-2018 10:43PM

It's disgraceful. I hope Gilroy gets to stay. What a ****show.

13-04-2018 10:55PM

BBDBB wrote: »

A great shame

As I think most here would agree, this is not a "rugby problem" its a societal one
Hanging these players out to dry is not going to do much to resolve the issue, it just sweeps it away from the IRFUs doorstep for now

What agency do you think should address the societal problem of casual misogyny in selected Ulster Rugby players?

I suppose the rape list found in the boys' toilets in the Cork school isn't a school issue, it's a societal one? I'm sure you'll be down there picketing the school demanding they take no action 'hanging the schoolboys out to dry'.

It's an awful red herring to suggest that unless some sort of body/power can address the problem everywhere at once, it shouldn't be addressed anywhere. Incremental change is generally the only change possible in social issues.

The attitudes of the 'fringe feminists' were deplorable, but the attitudes of people on here, reddit and in person who justified and explained away the language and attitudes as just being laddish culture, or 'that's rugby', or 'we've all said worse' has probably done just as much damage to peoples perceptions of rugby.

Bad enough for a handful of players to act like that, but to see a large number of supporters very visibly doing absolutely anything they can to explain it away as being a non-issue was desperately disappointing.

If one were to go back through this and the other thread, how many tens of usernames would one collect that said "they'll never be fired" or "it isn't a big issue, they'll be back playing after the trial" or messages along those lines?

The Black Stags · 13-04-2018 10:57PM

"If the first half was dour, the second half was no better"

http://www.the42.ie/jacob-stockdale-ulster-rugby-protests-belfast-feminist-3957639-Apr2018/

Don't bother clicking the link, they've closed comments on the article. It's very clear they are crafting a narrative around this now and it's Ulster Rugby in the firing line. Not about PJ or SO anymore, the media were never happy the boys were innocent.

The Black Stags · 13-04-2018 11:01PM

Deleted User wrote: »

BBDBB wrote: »

A great shame

As I think most here would agree, this is not a "rugby problem" its a societal one
Hanging these players out to dry is not going to do much to resolve the issue, it just sweeps it away from the IRFUs doorstep for now

It's an awful red herring to suggest that unless some sort of body/power can address the problem everywhere at once

Also, historically this was not a red herring issue - the body you're looking for was the church, it was the glue for society. It's gone now and won't be coming back. Wasn't perfect, but it was the glue.

FrancieBrady · 13-04-2018 11:06PM

The Black Stags wrote: »

Also, historically this was not a red herring issue - the body you're looking for was the church, it was the glue for society. It's gone now and won't be coming back. Wasn't perfect, but it was the glue.

Great bunch of lads.

BBDBB · 13-04-2018 11:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What agency do you think should address the societal problem of casual misogyny in selected Ulster Rugby players?

I suppose the rape list found in the boys' toilets in the Cork school isn't a school issue, it's a societal one? I'm sure you'll be down there picketing the school demanding they take no action 'hanging the schoolboys out to dry'.

It's an awful red herring to suggest that unless some sort of body/power can address the problem everywhere at once, it shouldn't be addressed anywhere. Incremental change is generally the only change possible in social issues.

The attitudes of the 'fringe feminists' were deplorable, but the attitudes of people on here, reddit and in person who justified and explained away the language and attitudes as just being laddish culture, or 'that's rugby', or 'we've all said worse' has probably done just as much damage to peoples perceptions of rugby.

Bad enough for a handful of players to act like that, but to see a large number of supporters very visibly doing absolutely anything they can to explain it away as being a non-issue was desperately disappointing.

If one were to go back through this and the other thread, how many tens of usernames would one collect that said "they'll never be fired" or "it isn't a big issue, they'll be back playing after the trial" or messages along those lines?

No single agency, but we ask a variety of agencies to provide strong leadership for our society, we ask them to govern us with justice, to make reasonable, balanced and fair decisions about the way we live our lives, the way we educate our children, the way we treat our sick, elderly and disadvantaged

yes I do actually, whilst the school is dealing with it, of course its a sad indictment of a part of our society that clearly needs to be addressed, or do you think a list of who we should rape/molest next is going to be sorted by half hours detention and a hundred lines? Suppose the investigation determines who wrote the list, identifies the culprit(s), theres a consequence of course, but how severe a consequence? enough to ruin someones life whilst they are still a youth?

Punishment should fit the crime in a reasonable society. It shouldn't be too weak and it shouldn't be too strong, neither serve society or the agency or the individuals involved.

Very true, and exactly the same allegations about making a point at any cost could be levelled at some of those in the other side of teh debate, so where does that leave us?? whataboutery and using the extremes of peoples views to make a point is ultimately destructive

I have no idea and I have little interest in score keeping. I expressed my own views, I back it up as best I can with why I think what I think. I read other views, I reflect on them and challenge the ones I think are incorrect if I think I have a reasonable point to make.

I think its clear that the IRFU simply want this to go away so that they can get rugby from under the intense spotlight that suggests this is purely a rugby problem. They can pat themselves on the back and say we dont have a casual misogyny problem in rugby, please continue to fund us. The braver thing to have done in my view would have been to extend the suspension for a period, as suitable punishment for the texts and disrepute behaviour. (On top of time already served) Insist upon some extensive work done by PJ, SO and perhaps Gilroy in the community to help them salve some of the damage they have done and earn back a little respect if they kept their heads down and showed a bit of humility. Perhaps find some way of making a profound gesture of apology and regret to the girl and her family.

Instead they have to now dig down the back of the sofa to negotiate pay outs for them. They walk away with the gaping wound between them and the community still raw, unable to resolve that as they will inevitably be required to sign non disclosure agreements as part of the deal and they go and re-start their lives and their careers earning some big bucks in France or England. Not a great result all round, just sweeping it away from the IRFUs doorstep, no resolution for the girl, no resolution or opportunity for the players to show regret and to try and make amends and no way for the Ulster community, rugby fans and non rugby fans to see an attempt for them to show they genuinely understand what they did was wrong and pull back some tiny fragment of self respect.

Weak leadership

Hurrache · 13-04-2018 11:27PM

C'mon lads, it's pretty pathetic to blame bankers on this one too. Although you'll get support from the socialists, they love an oul march blaming banks for anything they can.

bilston · 13-04-2018 11:27PM

UAFC seems to have crashed...well for me anyway...

13-04-2018 11:48PM

BBDBB wrote: »

No single agency, but we ask a variety of agencies to provide strong leadership for our society, we ask them to govern us with justice, to make reasonable, balanced and fair decisions about the way we live our lives, the way we educate our children, the way we treat our sick, elderly and disadvantaged

Which is it? Agencies like the IRFU/Ulster Rugby can attempt small scale social change or they can't? Your post before this was arguing it wasn't their place, now you're suggesting it may be...but isn't as long as it's Rugby because Rugby is special to you?

yes I do actually, whilst the school is dealing with it, of course its a sad indictment of a part of our society that clearly needs to be addressed, or do you think a list of who we should rape/molest next is going to be sorted by half hours detention and a hundred lines? Suppose the investigation determines who wrote the list, identifies the culprit(s), theres a consequence of course, but how severe a consequence? enough to ruin someones life whilst they are still a youth?

Oh, even worse. Not only do you think that change should only be attempted when you can change everything at once, change should only attempted when you can change everything at once and instantly AND we can see the long-term consequences of the actions we commit now.

Right. Ok.

I think its clear that the IRFU simply want this to go away so that they can get rugby from under the intense spotlight that suggests this is purely a rugby problem.

There is absolutely no evidence as to what the IRFU want. If you have some, I'd love to see it.

By the way, the evidence being "this is my opinion without any hard evidence", then you probably shouldn't say that it's "clear".

Instead they have to now dig down the back of the sofa to negotiate pay outs for them. They walk away with the gaping wound between them and the community still raw, unable to resolve that as they will inevitably be required to sign non disclosure agreements as part of the deal and they go and re-start their lives and their careers earning some big bucks in France or England. Not a great result all round, just sweeping it away from the IRFUs doorstep, no resolution for the girl, no resolution or opportunity for the players to show regret and to try and make amends and no way for the Ulster community, rugby fans and non rugby fans to see an attempt for them to show they genuinely understand what they did was wrong and pull back some tiny fragment of self respect.

Weak leadership

I dunno, I see resolution. Your issue seems to be that you didn't get the resolution you want.

P_1 · 13-04-2018 11:52PM

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/rugby-union/paddy-jackson-stuart-olding-to-12360717

Mirror so treat with salt, seems a "mutual consent" is in the works

EDIT link from IT added

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/paddy-jackson-and-stuart-olding-expected-to-depart-ulster-1.3461283

FrancieBrady · 13-04-2018 11:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Which is it? Agencies like the IRFU/Ulster Rugby can attempt small scale social change or they can't? Your post before this was arguing it wasn't their place, now you're suggesting it may be...but isn't as long as it's Rugby because Rugby is special to you?

Oh, even worse. Not only do you think that change should only be attempted when you can change everything at once, change should only attempted when you can change everything at once and instantly AND we can see the long-term consequences of the actions we commit now.

Right. Ok.

There is absolutely no evidence as to what the IRFU want. If you have some, I'd love to see it.

By the way, the evidence being "this is my opinion without any hard evidence", then you probably shouldn't say that it's "clear".

I dunno, I see resolution. Your issue seems to be that you didn't get the resolution you want.

What 'resolution'?

The issue has been swept under the carpet. The usual Irish solution...export the 'shame' or problem.

13-04-2018 11:54PM

I now wish I hadn't checked the thread about this on UAFC. It makes the worst of the worst here/on reddit look genteel and progressive in comparison.

@FrancieBrady: The players are leaving Ulster Rugby and will not be playing for Ireland for the foreseeable future (if ever). What exactly am I meant to want? Am I meant to say "NO RESOLUTION" until I see them literally crucified? I really don't understand.

How exactly is the 'shame being exported'? Unless you somehow think the IRFU/Ulster Rugby control if a former employee gets to work anywhere in the world? Is that what you're trying to argue? I don't think you are but nothing else seems to make sense.

Neither are being let play in Ireland. Where is 'sweeping under the carpet' or the 'exporting of shame'?

FrancieBrady · 14-04-2018 12:10AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I now wish I hadn't checked the thread about this on UAFC. It makes the worst of the worst here/on reddit look genteel and progressive in comparison.

@FrancieBrady: The players are leaving Ulster Rugby and will not be playing for Ireland for the foreseeable future (if ever). What exactly am I meant to want? Am I meant to say "NO RESOLUTION" until I see them literally crucified? I really don't understand.

How exactly is the 'shame being exported'? Unless you somehow think the IRFU/Ulster Rugby control if a former employee gets to work anywhere in the world? Is that what you're trying to argue? I don't think you are but nothing else seems to make sense.

Neither are being let play in Ireland. Where is 'sweeping under the carpet' or the 'exporting of shame'?

There is no resolution of the issues. Just sweep them under the carpet and hope it doesn't happen again.
The sponsors and the IRFU were forced to cut these guys loose. What happens if the French or whatever team hire them come to play in Ireland. Will the mob mass at Kingspan demanding the French team drop them?

We have always exported our problems to remain morally righteous. From petty crime to abortion. A national trait, so to speak.

14-04-2018 12:18AM

You're.... just repeating yourself without actually explaining anything.

How exactly do you think the IRFU are meant to stop PJ/SO from ever playing rugby anywhere in the World?

How are UR/IRFU sweeping the issue under the carpet when they've announced press releases tomorrow that you haven't even read?

For God's sake.

BBDBB · 14-04-2018 12:21AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Which is it? Agencies like the IRFU/Ulster Rugby can attempt small scale social change or they can't? Your post before this was arguing it wasn't their place, now you're suggesting it may be...but isn't as long as it's Rugby because Rugby is special to you?

Oh, even worse. Not only do you think that change should only be attempted when you can change everything at once, change should only attempted when you can change everything at once and instantly AND we can see the long-term consequences of the actions we commit now.

Right. Ok.

There is absolutely no evidence as to what the IRFU want. If you have some, I'd love to see it.

By the way, the evidence being "this is my opinion without any hard evidence", then you probably shouldn't say that it's "clear".

I dunno, I see resolution. Your issue seems to be that you didn't get the resolution you want.

Er...that wasn't what I was arguing actually and I am consistent in saying that there are a wide variety of agencies responsible. It is their place and The IRFU have offered a weak delivery of that responsibility in this case. I offer an alternative at the bottom of my last post

No, I haven't mentioned timing it all at once, I have no idea how you are reading that into what I ve written, but as mind readers go, so far you are losing two nil.
This school incident indicates purely by example that the problem of mysogeny is not confined to a single incident by members of a particular sports team or sport. Its a widespread problem that needs to be dealt with. Dont agree? read the paper there are dozens of examples across the country. But putting two rugby players into exile isnt going to change much in my view. If you think that society is now going to be a wonderful place and you want to sing kum by ah then go ahead. Personally Im not seeing how this action changes much. The gards will still do a poor job of dealing with alleged rape victims, the PPS will still push poorly judged cases to trial, lawyers will still get rich, victims will still feel they cant get justice and men and women will still get drunk and do stupid things.

Id accept your critique of my language skills if you weren't taking a single word out of its context simply to try and score a point. Thats poor debating (in my opinion

) We are on a discussion forum, of course its all my opinion. Same as your post.

Wheres the resolution for the Ulster community? I dont see it
I see lots of division, our own views would be considered a minor example but you listed a load of deplorable attitudes and despite the bias of them they were correct. What was missing was the equally biased deplorable attitudes of the other side of the debate which now understandably includes a dose of triumphalism. One side says its now resolved. As you pointed out, its not resolved to some peoples satisfaction, that festers and then re-emerges later in other forms

Wheres the resolution for teh Ulster and Ireland fans who have been gutted by this whole sorry affair, seeing talented young men thrown away rather than re-educated and re-introduced at a suitable juncture

Wheres the resolution for the girl in question? I can see a bit of short lived "serve them right!" that'll pass and she's left to pick up the pieces with her anonymity not as secure as promised, and a sense of dissatisfaction that the men she thought had raped her are now earning vast sums of money abroad

I can see resolution for the IRFU, no longer their problem, the lawyers will now negotiate the size of the cheques and the wording of the agreement. But at what price? in cash, certainly, but also in terms of their relationship with their sponsors. Is it still a balanced partnership? Does it indicate that the balance of power in the relationship will return to as it was? It doesnt usually in my experience, but maybe Im wrong.

I saw an opportunity and have tried to highlight how it could play out and how it could be of benefit to all. I think its a better solution. You dont. I can live with that.

FrancieBrady · 14-04-2018 12:26AM

Deleted User wrote: »

You're.... just repeating yourself without actually explaining anything.

How exactly do you think the IRFU are meant to stop PJ/SO from ever playing rugby anywhere in the World?

How are UR/IRFU sweeping the issue under the carpet when they've announced press releases tomorrow that you haven't even read?

For God's sake.

I guarantee they will be moralistic high sounding platitudes.

What I am saying re: sweeping it under the carpet. That will be enough, everyone will return to their boltholes. Young men will go out to sow their oats amid a plentiful supply of those willing to accept them. Very little will change...until somebody ****s up again. Meanwhile Paddy and Olding wil spend or invest their healthy payoff.

14-04-2018 12:31AM

As I think most here would agree, this is not a "rugby problem" its a societal one
Hanging these players out to dry is not going to do much to resolve the issue, it just sweeps it away from the IRFUs doorstep for now

"It is their place"

Well, second sentence and you're already contradicting prior posts. That's not a great sign.

No, I haven't mentioned timing it all at once, I have no idea how you are reading that into what I ve written, but as mind readers go, so far you are losing two nil.

" theres a consequence of course, but how severe a consequence? enough to ruin someones life whilst they are still a youth?"

Great, contradicting yourself yet again.

Its a widespread problem that needs to be dealt with. Dont agree? read the paper there are dozens of examples across the country. But putting two rugby players into exile isnt going to change much in my view. If you think that society is now going to be a wonderful place and you want to sing kum by ah then go ahead. Personally Im not seeing how this action changes much. The gards will still do a poor job of dealing with alleged rape victims, the PPS will still push poorly judged cases to trial, lawyers will still get rich, victims will still feel they cant get justice and men and women will still get drunk and do stupid things.

And there we are. Yet again arguing that there's no point making small, self-contained incremental positive changes. That's it folks, there's no point in any agency or organisation trying to improve things because BBDBB says so. Unless some sort of magical all-powerful and all-seeing agency can make every single person stop being misogynistic, there's not point even trying.

Id accept your critique of my language skills if you weren't taking a single word out of its context simply to try and score a point. Thats poor debating (in my opinion ) We are on a discussion forum, of course its all my opinion. Same as your post.

I didn't critique your language skills. You also didn't provide your hard evidence as to what makes you think 'it's clear' what the IRFU wants.

The last 4 paragraphs just prove that I was right. The only resolution you want is the one that suits you. Resolution doesn't mean making everyone happy, it means that the situation is resolved. The situation being SO/PJ in limbo at Ulster Rugby, which is now resolved as they will be leaving at the end of the season.

BBDBB · 14-04-2018 12:48AM

Deleted User wrote: »

"It is their place"

Well, second sentence and you're already contradicting prior posts. That's not a great sign.

" theres a consequence of course, but how severe a consequence? enough to ruin someones life whilst they are still a youth?"

Great, contradicting yourself yet again.

And there we are. Yet again arguing that there's no point making small, self-contained incremental positive changes. That's it folks, there's no point in any agency or organisation trying to improve things because BBDBB says so. Unless some sort of magical all-powerful and all-seeing agency can make every single person stop being misogynistic, there's not point even trying.

I didn't critique your language skills. You also didn't provide your hard evidence as to what makes you think 'it's clear' what the IRFU wants.

The last 4 paragraphs just prove that I was right. The only resolution you want is the one that suits you. Resolution doesn't mean making everyone happy, it means that the situation is resolved. The situation being SO/PJ in limbo at Ulster Rugby.

This is bizarre. Im genuinely not seeing any contradiction. Im not just being obtuse I promise you. It is their place and they have done a poor job of it. Seems self evident to me of what Im saying.

How on earth do you get "all at once" from that??

Im not arguing for no small or incremental changes. Im saying the change that this advocates is a poorly thought out one and a better one could have been found

Yes you did, you are trying to be a smart arse about using the term clear as though I was unaware that I was putting forward my opinionated that somehow that weakens the point Im making (or at least trying to make however badly it seems)

Perhaps if you considered that paragraph again Ive indicated that lots of changes need to be made, across a wide spectrum of society. Perhaps you could tell me how the actions of the IRFU will change the way rape victims are treated by the Gards? I think its a bit of a stretch to see their actions have any permanent or long lasting change in that or any other of those areas I mentioned. I think the solution I offered would have made a more significant step forward at least in the local Ulster community. As I said I can live with the fact you dont agree, but leave the mind reading to Derren Brown, you aren't that good at it.

If you think the limit of the problem that needs resolving is that two players were in limbo at Ulster rugby I think you are in the wrong debate. thats barely a scratch on the surface of what this whole episode has turned over. Theres a much wider divide in opinion than that and I think an opportunity has been missed by the IRFU, they've taken an easier path to get it off their doorstep rather than try to do a something even more significant and valuable for a wider community.

joseywhales · 14-04-2018 12:49AM

Look on the bright side, at least you will have a foreign team to cheer for that has a chance of winning something!

MJohnston · 14-04-2018 12:50AM

It's a little ironic we now have a thread full of posters complaining that PJ/SO are doing something that they didn't really consent to, or were coerced into consenting to.

I guess we'll all just have to trust in the official IRFU judgement that will come out that will no doubt suggest it was all done with mutual consent.

Anyway, glad to see them go, no matter your side in this whole mess, this was inevitable even without the protests. I'd be relatively unhappy to see Gilroy pushed out too as I don't think he'd deserve it at all, but hopefully he won't be.

BBDBB · 14-04-2018 12:58AM

A fair point, the negotiation of the departing handshakes with a cheque in one hand will no doubt have sweetened the pill for them and may well cause a few raised eyebrows if its disclosed how much it is. (Depending on what exactly its for)

14-04-2018 01:03AM

'It's not the IRFU's place' = 'It is the IRFUs place' = 'it's not the IRFUs place because something something Gardai something rape' that's quite genuinely what you seem to be vacillating between to me.

BBDBB wrote: »

Perhaps if you considered that paragraph again Ive indicated that lots of changes need to be made, across a wide spectrum of society. Perhaps you could tell me how the actions of the IRFU will change the way rape victims are treated by the Gards?

How is that relevant? Why should the IRFU's actions impact how rape victims are treated by the Gardai?

Honestly, why do you think the IRFU should be getting involved in the criminal investigation of rape among non-rugby players?

The point about small incremental change is exactly that organisations like the IRFU can make a (very) small positive change!

I think its a bit of a stretch to see their actions have any permanent or long lasting change in that or any other of those areas I mentioned.

How is that relevant? The IRFU cleaning it's own house is what's relevant, and the knock-on effects on younger players of seeing how their role-models behave (or are punished) is a pleasant bonus.

I think the solution I offered would have made a more significant step forward at least in the local Ulster community. As I said I can live with the fact you dont agree, but leave the mind reading to Derren Brown, you aren't that good at it.

I respect you posting your views even if I don't necessarily respect the views themselves!

If you think the limit of the problem that needs resolving is that two players were in limbo at Ulster rugby I think you are in the wrong debate. thats barely a scratch on the surface of what this whole episode has turned over.

I never said that though.

I specifically said that the problem of SO/PJ at UR is resolved. Where did I say that this action is the end of any misogynistic tendencies in Rugby? If I didn't say or imply that, then I don't understand the point in making it part of the discussion!

stl.ire · 14-04-2018 01:49AM

With the media and protests this was always the likely outcome. It’s best for the IRFU and it’s best for the players involved (more money abroad and less attention). The only party hurt is Ulster. If the IRFU made this decision you’d hope they will bankroll/bend the rules for Ulster.

Neil3030 · 14-04-2018 03:08AM

My source still claiming they are bound for Bath and Exeter.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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