The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It's more a biological angle.

Only one gender gets pregnant therefore it is primarily a issue for/about that gender however, it is also an issue which affects the other gender albeit to a lesser, not physically intrusive, extent.

Can you explain how we can discuss an issue which primarily -and sometimes fatally - is focused on the bodies of one gender without it having a hint of gender politics about it?

As a wee thought experiment replace 'abortion' with 'vasectomy'* - it is illegal to have the snip. It is in the Constitution. Discuss without making it a gendered issue. Off ya go...


*not nearly an equivalent I know but I honestly couldn't think of something that would have as deep an impact on men's health care as the 8th has on women's.

It can have more than a hint.

As Nietzsche said, "if you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you".

Ush1 wrote: »

You could be right.

I just think certain elements of the pro choice side are wilfully ignorant of why the issue is contentious, to both men and women. That's all.

True... to an extent.

However, some people are wilfully ignorant of the impact this Amendment has had on the lives of women and just how much f*ucking ANGER has been building for the last 35 years.
Yes, women are venting.
Women are angry.
It might make people uncomfortable but ya know what... so what.
The anger is real. It is justified.

The 8th has never personally affected me or my bodily autonomy but I'm fairly furious it exists.

Ush1 wrote: »

It can have more than a hint.

As Nietzsche said, "if you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you".

Kant or wont do the thought experiment?

I don't think it's true to say that there are no irreligious No voters.

There are plenty of people who object on moral grounds, completely separated from any religion.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Kant or wont do the thought experiment?

I would think about it the exact same way, if there was a proposal to change the constitution with regards to making the snip legal I would welcome womens input greatly.

Funnily enough my wife is currently putting a lot of pressure on me to get the snip! Where's my autonomy?:pac:

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I'm not a big fan of the hate for men some campaigners seem to have, but to be fair, some women have been telling everyone, not just men for a long time that its a step that needs to be taken. So its not a bit of wonder some people get frustrated.

1 in 4 women have a miscarriage at some point, but its still kept quiet, and not talked about. And that's been happening since day dot. So its unlikely that, even with abortion being accessible, people will be singing and dancing about having to have an abortion.

Abortions have been happening for a long time as well, be it a couple of pills, a bottle of gin and a bath, "falling" down stairs, or a concoction of herbs. Do you not think its about time we had a proper think, and try and help these women, rather sticking our fingers in our ears, and pretending it doesn't happen here, in good "Old Catholic Ireland".

Yep that's all fine and I'm not petty enough that misplaced anger would sway my vote, but I wonder is that the same for people who might be on the fence?

Ush1 wrote: »

I would think about it the exact same way, if there was a proposal to change the constitution with regards to making the snip legal I would welcome womens input greatly.

Funnily enough my wife is currently putting a lot of pressure on me to get the snip! Where's my autonomy?:pac:

If you are under 35, and don't already have kids, getting an elective vasectomy can be quite difficult.

Shadowstrife wrote: »

There are plenty of people who object on moral grounds, completely separated from any religion.

Are there? Can you name 3?

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

You have bodily autonomy. You can say no. No one can force you to do it.

Well, as a matter of fact, rapists force women by definition, and at the other end courts force them with court orders, so women get people interfering in their bodily autonomy both legally and illegally.

But you can help with the legal cases by repealing the 8th.

Sofiztikated wrote: »

1 in 4 women have a miscarriage at some point, but its still kept quiet, and not talked about. And that's been happening since day dot. So its unlikely that, even with abortion being accessible, people will be singing and dancing about having to have an abortion.

I think it should also be pointed out that up to 50% of all pregnancies are miscarried before 4 weeks, often without the woman realising. There is a 75% chance of miscarriage if you're 45 (up from 35% at age 40) after 4 weeks.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Well, as a matter of fact, rapists force women by definition, and at the other end courts force them with court orders, so women get people interfering in their bodily autonomy both legally and illegally.

But you can help with the legal cases by repealing the 8th.

There are plenty of examples where people are forced to do things by others. My comment was specific to the point the other poster was making regarding vasectomy.

You 

Ush1 wrote: »

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Then I don't get your response to the previous poster.  If you wanted to have a vasectomy and the law was to change to make them illegal, how would you discuss it without focusing on one gender?

Well that poster proposed that it was already illegal in the constitution, and I replied I would feel the same as about this issue. Everyones input would be welcome.

You would expect your neighbours qnd people you've never met to decide under what circumstances you were to be allowed a vasectomy? (I'm sorry Mr Ush, your health is not yet poor enough for you not to be able to provide for more children, we don't think you should have one yet."

Reading something on fb plus thinking about the video I watched yesterday about how the 8th was brought in got me thinking.

Before contraception was brought in we were told it was bad (by the church). Is it though??
And since contraception was legalised gas the sky fallen down? Has society fallen apart?
No it has not.

My convent education advocated that sex was only for "within the framework of marriage". I'll never forget that wording! And that sex outside out of marriage was bad. That left me with a 20 year history of dealing with guilt after sex and not enjoyable sex during. I have finally come to the realisation that sex is a good thing. We as human beings need human touch and need human feel good sensations. Sex is good for your physical and mental well being.
Since sex outside of marriage has become the norm has the sky fallen down? Has society fallen apart?
No.

Divorce.
Hello divorce goodbye daddy said the church. Putting the fear of god (literally) in me as a child.
Since divorce is in has the sky fallen down? Is everyone getting divorced?
No.
Actually ireland has a low divorce rate.

Same sex marriage
Threatens marriage. Threatens family. A child needs a mother and father. Said the naysayers years later has the sky fallen down?
No.

Abortion in Ireland rather than England
Abortion safely under medical care rather than in bedrooms in secret.
Will society change?
No.

We cannot live under fear any more or believe, what frankly are, lies. We are good humans. We deserve human rights.

Repeal the 8th

Are no campaigners tearing down yes posters in your area?