Irish woman gang raped by 6 men in Czech hotel

Roger Hassenforder · 09-04-2018 05:44PM

fash wrote: »

Foreign nationals are considered to suffer more in prison than nationals - due to lack of family connections/visits etc. As a result sentence is reduced to take this hardship into consideration. It's part of the court sentencing guidelines.

If ever an agency/group should change their name!!
Irish Sentencing Information System

Gravelly · 09-04-2018 06:01PM

fash wrote: »

Foreign nationals are considered to suffer more in prison than nationals - due to lack of family connections/visits etc. As a result sentence is reduced to take this hardship into consideration. It's part of the court sentencing guidelines.

I saw in a media report recently where a judge specifically used a non-nationals status as a mitigating factor in sentencing - I wonder if there is grounds for an Irish person convicted and sentenced for a crime to claim discrimination on this issue? What does one even call this - nationalaphobia perhaps?

jmayo · 10-04-2018 02:44PM

This case and the case in Belfast are too very high profile cases where the women in question went back to the guys place.
Thus they had no control over who else was going to be there.

Now maybe some of you may complain that I am victim blaming, but would it be more secure if women adopted the principle that they take guy, and if they so desire guys, back to their place rather than the other way around.

I would term it a bit like how I found a woman would not go on a blind date to somewhere non public.

I think people, both men and women, have to recognise that there are risks involved in going to certain places.
It doesn't mean that they deserve to be attacked if do go somewhere, but people have a responsibility to themselves to take precautions.

Appledreams15 · 10-04-2018 02:52PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Actually, depending on most circumstances, they do get criticised for their behavior by friends, family, etc.

And if you consider the threads here on boards, there have been very few posts referring to men being assaulted. The majority of the posts (if not all) are about women being assaulted/raped.

Because people have no interest or feel little to no surprise when men are attacked. It's not news.

I don't believe mens family and friends are chastising them about going out drinking AFTER they get assaulted. Sure I don't know every man who's been assaulted and how his family reacted (neither do you) but since the online comments never chastise men and always chastise women I'm safely assuming their families and friends aren't much different.

Most rapes aren't in the news either. Just the high profile ones. For example those with famous people or numerous attackers. And high profile assaults are in the news as well. I could name a famous assault case for any famous rape case you could mention.

They criticize the woman's choice in sexual partners, they criticize their willingness to get drunk with strangers, or they criticize their decisions to place themselves at risk.

Exactly. And what risks are women taking in terms of their choice of sexual partners. Is it actually risky? Is there a way to mitigate that risk? I think you'll agree a woman can't know from one nightclub encounter that a man is a potential rapist (ignoring the racists who think you shouldn't go home with an algerian). Will she know after one proper date? Two? Given that most rapes aren't stranger rapes isn't the correct advice "never ever be alone with a man, no matter how much you've screened him, never ever get drunk even with men you know as they are the most likely to rape you". Is the "advice" given to women actually sensible "advice" based on real risks and concern? Or is it unfollowable nonsense such as "don't get in a car" because there's a significant risk of crashing"?

Because it's assumed that men know these things, because generally speaking most men have experienced beatings or fights previously. We're already expected to be careful when out drinking, and nobody gets much sympathy for the stupid crap they do while drunk.

Maybe not if it's actually stupid crap, such as YouTube stunts that go wrong.

If it's simply being attacked while walking down a dark alley then he'll get plenty of sympathy. Because its low risk and someone else's fault. I genuinely have yet to hear criticism of a man being attacked by someone and he being criticized for his alcohol consumption or his choice of route home etc.

Just as a woman going back to man's house is low risk and his fault if he attack her.

And yes women are aware that there are risks in going home with a stranger. They just judge them to be low. Using the car example again would you say all those people driving right now have no idea there's a risk to themselves? Or do they just judge the risk to be acceptably low?

It's just that you expect women to be able to experience all the risky things that men do, but also, to gain sympathy or positive attention when their risky behavior returns something bad/awful.

I expect a woman to be treated the same as a man if she take a low risk and is assaulted. Basically, no criticism of her.

If she takes an actual risk such as trampolining at the edge of a cliff for views on YouTube then I would expect her to get the same treatment as a man. Not much sympathy.

The more I've thought about it. We have a worldwide rape problem. That's a fact.

I've thought about it alot, and I've realised one of the factors is: men not living themselves.

Why do you hurt someone else? Because you are hurt. Hurt people hurt people.

Many men are out of whack, and are suffering and aggressive.

So how do we help men first?

I guarantee when men are loving themselves, they won't feel a need to hurt women.

Appledreams15 · 10-04-2018 02:53PM

It won't let me edit.

Men not LOVING themselves*.

Only hurt people hurt people.

10-04-2018 02:59PM

jmayo wrote: »

This case and the case in Belfast are too very high profile cases where the women in question went back to the guys place.
Thus they had no control over who else was going to be there.

Now maybe some of you may complain that I am victim blaming, but would it be more secure if women adopted the principle that they take guy, and if they so desire guys, back to their place rather than the other way around.

I would term it a bit like how I found a woman would not go on a blind date to somewhere non public.

I think people, both men and women, have to recognise that there are risks involved in going to certain places.
It doesn't mean that they deserve to be attacked if do go somewhere, but people have a responsibility to themselves to take precautions.

I dunno. I've noticed my mates generally would have girls go back to their place, I've always been invited to the lady's first. Different strokes I guess. I dunno, I would've thought from the cautious POV it'd be "safer" going to the guy's place. Maybe familiarity feels safer?

10-04-2018 03:03PM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

It won't let me edit.

Men not LOVING themselves*.

Only hurt people hurt people.

And, going by your posts thus far, only men hurt people. Pack it in sister. Plenty of women hurt people too, including female teachers sexually abusing underage students and mothers sexually abusing their own children.

cantdecide · 10-04-2018 04:02PM

Omackeral wrote: »

And, going by your posts thus far, only men hurt people. Pack it in sister.

Some posters have just the one drum they wish to beat. Something strangely familiar about some user's posting styles.

Omackeral wrote: »

Plenty of women hurt people too, including female teachers sexually abusing underage students and mothers sexually abusing their own children.

Or facilitation. Literally just as bad as the perpetrators, IMO.

Hercule Poirot · 10-04-2018 05:52PM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Only hurt people hurt people.

Well that's bollox - I've seen people do terrible things and nearly piss themselves with laughter while doing it; sometimes the forlorn charity case is just a scummy piece of s**t I'm afraid

Danzy · 10-04-2018 05:56PM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

It won't let me edit.

Men not LOVING themselves*.

Only hurt people hurt people.

Often the case

It is also the case that people do things because they enjoy them, are psychopathic, are acting in accordance with their moral, cultural or religious expectations.

I've met very gentle and caring souls who have done the most brutal things in the context of war.

10-04-2018 06:22PM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

The more I've thought about it. We have a worldwide rape problem. That's a fact.

It's a fact that Rape occurs worldwide. As for a rape "problem", you might want to clarify whether you mean simply a problem, an epidemic, a crisis etc.

I've thought about it alot, and I've realised one of the factors is: men not living themselves.

Not living themselves? As what? I'm pretty sure quite a lot of men become husbands, fathers, and fulfill themselves in a variety of roles. Once again, you might want to clarify such a vague statement.

Why do you hurt someone else? Because you are hurt. Hurt people hurt people.

The whole human race experiences hurt at one time or another. We're not all dishing that hurt out on others. You could ask why a wife might cheat on her husband... there's all manner of causes.

Many men are out of whack, and are suffering and aggressive.

So how do we help men first?

I guarantee when men are loving themselves, they won't feel a need to hurt women.

Since you're so interested... start with your favorite gender, women, and research why [some/many] women kill, steal, physically and sexually abuse others, etc. The numbers of women out there causing "hurt" might surprise you.

Then come back to men once you've a better understanding and a clearer idea of what kind of questions you want to ask. (less of this vague nonsense)

10-04-2018 06:35PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Ah well I see a big contradiction in this paragraph because you say you're not judging and then say something very judgemental.

Snipped it down to this since we're going around in circles nitpicking at each others posts, and they're getting progressively longer each time.

Everyone judges based on their own experiences, however, I don't blame this woman for what happened to her. It was an awful experience that shouldn't have happened but it did. It is my hope that people would see what happened and remember to put their own personal safety first.

Now, whether you want to take that to extremes and distrust all men, then that's your choice. Personally, I can accept that if it means that your safety is increased. IF you don't want to live like that, then compromise and increase your safety in small measurable ways. Getting drunk with strangers or alone wouldn't be a good choice. Nor is heading off with strangers for a shag.

In an ideal world, you should be able to behave as you please, and not risk being raped or assaulted, but wishing it was, won't change that the world is not this way. Until it is, then you should be considering whether taking that risk is worth the experience you're aiming for, or if your time should be invested in less risky activities.

Galwayguy35 · 10-04-2018 07:25PM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

The more I've thought about it. We have a worldwide rape problem. That's a fact.

I've thought about it alot, and I've realised one of the factors is: men not living themselves.

Why do you hurt someone else? Because you are hurt. Hurt people hurt people.

Many men are out of whack, and are suffering and aggressive.

So how do we help men first?

I guarantee when men are loving themselves, they won't feel a need to hurt women.

Any chance you can back up any of this with facts?

irishrebe · 10-04-2018 09:29PM

jmayo wrote: »

This case and the case in Belfast are too very high profile cases where the women in question went back to the guys place.
Thus they had no control over who else was going to be there.

Now maybe some of you may complain that I am victim blaming, but would it be more secure if women adopted the principle that they take guy, and if they so desire guys, back to their place rather than the other way around.

I would term it a bit like how I found a woman would not go on a blind date to somewhere non public.

I think people, both men and women, have to recognise that there are risks involved in going to certain places.
It doesn't mean that they deserve to be attacked if do go somewhere, but people have a responsibility to themselves to take precautions.

What a great idea, then the guy knows where you live, so if he has any kind of stalker-like tendencies, you're screwed. And in general, it's a hell of a lot easier to leave someone's house than it is to kick someone out of your own. If they're going to attack you, they'll do it anyway. Completely ridiculous and ill thought out advice.

cryptocurrency · 10-04-2018 09:30PM

Not much media coverage on this shocking incident

meeeeh · 10-04-2018 09:37PM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Not much media coverage on this shocking incident

How many rape cases do you know that have much of a media coverage in stages of investigation? Especially when victim survives? For example there seems to be an investigation into an awful case of abuse somewhere around Limerick? How much coverage did you see lately?

redcup342 · 11-04-2018 09:49AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Not much media coverage on this shocking incident

Plenty of Media coverage in Czech

https://news.google.com/news/story/dDa4V6kxh0DuEHMAI7w5u2_9J_pSM?ned=cs_cz&hl=cs&gl=CZ

There generally isn't that much media coverage on shocking incidents that occur in Non-English speaking countries.

The amount of crazy sh*t that happens in the US and we never hear about it unless it's via some shared video on Facebook.

TheManTheMyth · 11-04-2018 04:28PM

Yes, but you'd think the Irish media would report on it considering the victim was Irish and the similarities with the recent case they covered extensively.

meeeeh · 11-04-2018 04:31PM

TheManTheMyth wrote: »

Yes, but you'd think the Irish media would report on it considering the victim was Irish and the similarities with the recent case they covered extensively.

How much of the extensive coverage was before the trial? What do you want to see, a comprehensive interview with the victim? Discussion with police what evidence they have. Pictures of alleged perpetrators?

Riskymove · 11-04-2018 04:32PM

TheManTheMyth wrote: »

Yes, but you'd think the Irish media would report on it considering the victim was Irish and the similarities with the recent case they covered extensively.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irish-woman-gang-raped-prague-12330716

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/irish-woman-allegedly-gang-raped-while-holidaying-in-prague-1.3453187

https://www.thesun.ie/news/2409370/irish-teacher-gang-raped-by-six-men-while-on-holiday-in-prague-could-feel-attackers-taking-turns-and-thought-she-was-going-to-be-killed/

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/694236/Irish-woman-raped-prague-algerian-students-Czech-republic

http://theliberal.ie/horrific-an-irish-woman-has-alleged-been-gang-raped-by-6-african-migrants-while-she-was-on-holiday/

https://www.buzz.ie/news/six-men-arrested-irish-tourist-gang-raped-holidays-prague-280066

https://www.irishpost.com/news/six-algerian-men-arrested-irishwoman-gang-raped-holiday-prague-153004

The_Kew_Tour · 11-04-2018 05:47PM

Fair play to Police over there. No messing about. Wish it was like that here.

professore · 11-04-2018 06:25PM

Riskymove wrote: »

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irish-woman-gang-raped-prague-12330716

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/irish-woman-allegedly-gang-raped-while-holidaying-in-prague-1.3453187

https://www.thesun.ie/news/2409370/irish-teacher-gang-raped-by-six-men-while-on-holiday-in-prague-could-feel-attackers-taking-turns-and-thought-she-was-going-to-be-killed/

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/694236/Irish-woman-raped-prague-algerian-students-Czech-republic

http://theliberal.ie/horrific-an-irish-woman-has-alleged-been-gang-raped-by-6-african-migrants-while-she-was-on-holiday/

https://www.buzz.ie/news/six-men-arrested-irish-tourist-gang-raped-holidays-prague-280066

https://www.irishpost.com/news/six-algerian-men-arrested-irishwoman-gang-raped-holiday-prague-153004

Doesn't compare to the rugby rape trial where non consent was not at all clear compared to this case of a foreign national by four defendants also foreign nationals.

An Irish woman being gang raped by 6 men - Muslim or otherwise - is a pretty rare occurrence. In fact I can't remember one other example. It should be more newsworthy? A fake news website in UCD rating female students was all over the front pages a year or two ago. This is surely much worse, yet very low key coverage.

Some mentally disturbed guy drawing a swastika in chalk on a well known gay pub in Dublin - front page news.

Meghan Markle's single grey hair - meltdown in the press.

Pathetic.

Gravelly · 11-04-2018 08:38PM

professore wrote: »

Doesn't compare to the rugby rape trial where non consent was not at all clear compared to this case of a foreign national by four defendants also foreign nationals.

An Irish woman being gang raped by 6 men - Muslim or otherwise - is a pretty rare occurrence. In fact I can't remember one other example. It should be more newsworthy? A fake news website in UCD rating female students was all over the front pages a year or two ago. This is surely much worse, yet very low key coverage.

Some mentally disturbed guy drawing a swastika in chalk on a well known gay pub in Dublin - front page news.

Meghan Markle's single grey hair - meltdown in the press.

Pathetic.

The reason for that is that most of the hysteria about the cases you cite above was by the same kind of people who minimise any criminal activity by people of a certain religion or skin colour, so they won’t be setting up hashtag campaigns or marched to draw attention to this crime.

LLMMLL · 12-04-2018 12:09PM

professore wrote: »

Doesn't compare to the rugby rape trial where non consent was not at all clear compared to this case of a foreign national by four defendants also foreign nationals.

An Irish woman being gang raped by 6 men - Muslim or otherwise - is a pretty rare occurrence. In fact I can't remember one other example. It should be more newsworthy? A fake news website in UCD rating female students was all over the front pages a year or two ago. This is surely much worse, yet very low key coverage.

Some mentally disturbed guy drawing a swastika in chalk on a well known gay pub in Dublin - front page news.

Meghan Markle's single grey hair - meltdown in the press.

Pathetic.

There was barely any coverage of the Belfast case until it went to trial. Because there's not much to cover until that point.

tretorn · 12-04-2018 12:20PM

There was a lot of coverage of the belfast case pre trial but that was because the men were named as soon as they were charged.

The BBC even named them before they were charged.

Have the men in the Prague case been charged yet.

LLMMLL · 12-04-2018 12:29PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Everyone judges based on their own experiences, however, I don't blame this woman for what happened to her. It was an awful experience that shouldn't have happened but it did. It is my hope that people would see what happened and remember to put their own personal safety first.

Not everyone judges in the same way. Some are more sympathetic than others. Some see a woman taking a low risk and don't immediately jump to the conclusion that the women has behaved irresponsibly just because the low risk turned into a bad situation.

Now, whether you want to take that to extremes and distrust all men, then that's your choice. Personally, I can accept that if it means that your safety is increased. IF you don't want to live like that, then compromise and increase your safety in small measurable ways. Getting drunk with strangers or alone wouldn't be a good choice. Nor is heading off with strangers for a shag.

Again ignoring that women are more at risk from men they know. To follow your logic, women shouldn't get drunk at all around men. And they shouldn't have casual sex at all. If they do and it goes wrong they won't be blamed, just judged to be "irresponsible". It's really victim blaming by the back door: "oh I don't blame you, I've just judged you to be an irresponsible person".

In an ideal world, you should be able to behave as you please, and not risk being raped or assaulted, but wishing it was, won't change that the world is not this way. Until it is, then you should be considering whether taking that risk is worth the experience you're aiming for, or if your time should be invested in less risky activities.

I agree. And nobody is saying that world will ever come about So I'm not sure why you keep repeating that.

But the risks of being raped from casual sex with a stranger are low. The risk that 5 of his friends will join him are vanishingly low.

I think the issue is the classic "I'm afraid to get on a plane but love to drive" paradox where one is far more risky but the safer action is felt to be riskier.

And yes, men and women should consider risks when doing various social and sexual activities. And when they choose to do a low risk behaviour and someone else victimizes them they shouldn't be judged to be irresponsible (or victim blamed).

irishrebe · 12-04-2018 10:58PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Everyone judges based on their own experiences, however, I don't blame this woman for what happened to her. It was an awful experience that shouldn't have happened but it did. It is my hope that people would see what happened and remember to put their own personal safety first.

Not everyone judges in the same way. Some are more sympathetic than others. Some see a woman taking a low risk and don't immediately jump to the conclusion that the women has behaved irresponsibly just because the low risk turned into a bad situation.

Now, whether you want to take that to extremes and distrust all men, then that's your choice. Personally, I can accept that if it means that your safety is increased. IF you don't want to live like that, then compromise and increase your safety in small measurable ways. Getting drunk with strangers or alone wouldn't be a good choice. Nor is heading off with strangers for a shag.

Again ignoring that women are more at risk from men they know. To follow your logic, women shouldn't get drunk at all around men. And they shouldn't have casual sex at all. If they do and it goes wrong they won't be blamed, just judged to be "irresponsible". It's really victim blaming by the back door: "oh I don't blame you, I've just judged you to be an irresponsible person".

In an ideal world, you should be able to behave as you please, and not risk being raped or assaulted, but wishing it was, won't change that the world is not this way. Until it is, then you should be considering whether taking that risk is worth the experience you're aiming for, or if your time should be invested in less risky activities.

I agree. And nobody is saying that world will ever come about So I'm not sure why you keep repeating that.

But the risks of being raped from casual sex with a stranger are low. The risk that 5 of his friends will join him are vanishingly low.

I think the issue is the classic "I'm afraid to get on a plane but love to drive" paradox where one is far more risky but the safer action is felt to be riskier.

And yes, men and women should consider risks when doing various social and sexual activities. And when they choose to do a low risk behaviour and someone else victimizes them they shouldn't be judged to be irresponsible (or victim blamed).

Exactly. I don't know why so many people find this so hard to grasp. It's really not that hard. I was jumped once while walking down the quays in Dublin. Should I never walk there again? Or should I just accept that it was a very low risk situation and I was really unlucky? My friend got dengue in Thailand despite diligently using repellent and nets. Is it her fault? Should none of us ever go anywhere with mosquito issues or should we do our best to minimise the risk and get on with living our lives? Telling people after the fact that they have been irresponsible is just a sh1tty thing to do. Thousands of people have casual sex with people they just met and only a tiny fraction of them ever have an issue. It is not in itself a particularly high risk behaviour in terms of personal safety. People take small risks every day of their lives, whether it's choosing to cycle on roads, trying to cross the road when the lights are about to change, opening the door to a stranger knocking, eating at a restaurant when you have no idea how their food hygiene is...any of of these things can be and has been fatal. I think some people just feel the need to victim blame someone who has been very unlucky so they can convince themselves that the victim was an irresponsible idiot and that the same could never happen to them.

fash · 13-04-2018 04:39AM

irishrebe wrote: »

I agree. And nobody is saying that world will ever come about So I'm not sure why you keep repeating that.

But the risks of being raped from casual sex with a stranger are low. The risk that 5 of his friends will join him are vanishingly low.

I think the issue is the classic "I'm afraid to get on a plane but love to drive" paradox where one is far more risky but the safer action is felt to be riskier.

And yes, men and women should consider risks when doing various social and sexual activities. And when they choose to do a low risk behaviour and someone else victimizes them they shouldn't be judged to be irresponsible (or victim blamed).

Exactly. I don't know why so many people find this so hard to grasp. It's really not that hard. I was jumped once while walking down the quays in Dublin. Should I never walk there again? Or should I just accept that it was a very low risk situation and I was really unlucky? My friend got dengue in Thailand despite diligently using repellent and nets. Is it her fault? Should none of us ever go anywhere with mosquito issues or should we do our best to minimise the risk and get on with living our lives? Telling people after the fact that they have been irresponsible is just a sh1tty thing to do. Thousands of people have casual sex with people they just met and only a tiny fraction of them ever have an issue. It is not in itself a particularly high risk behaviour in terms of personal safety. People take small risks every day of their lives, whether it's choosing to cycle on roads, trying to cross the road when the lights are about to change, opening the door to a stranger knocking, eating at a restaurant when you have no idea how their food hygiene is...any of of these things can be and has been fatal. I think some people just feel the need to victim blame someone who has been very unlucky so they can convince themselves that the victim was an irresponsible idiot and that the same could never happen to them.[/quote]
There are low risk activities where the dubious benefits are clear, low risk activities with few/ benefits, medium risk activities with same and high risk activities with same. Of note, risk is a measure of both likelihood of the occurrence of any event as well as severity of potential "go wrong" scenarios.

Taking ecstasy tablets for example is low risk for the majority of people and goes right a lot of the time. Nevertheless, potential bad consequences are severe and the potential benefits are dubious.

I personally strongly disagree that having an ONS with a significantly stronger person from a highly un-enlightened culture in a location determined by him is a low risk situation with clear benefits.

fash · 13-04-2018 04:41AM

irishrebe wrote: »

Exactly. I don't know why so many people find this so hard to grasp. It's really not that hard. I was jumped once while walking down the quays in Dublin. Should I never walk there again? Or should I just accept that it was a very low risk situation and I was really unlucky? My friend got dengue in Thailand despite diligently using repellent and nets. Is it her fault? Should none of us ever go anywhere with mosquito issues or should we do our best to minimise the risk and get on with living our lives? Telling people after the fact that they have been irresponsible is just a sh1tty thing to do. Thousands of people have casual sex with people they just met and only a tiny fraction of them ever have an issue. It is not in itself a particularly high risk behaviour in terms of personal safety. People take small risks every day of their lives, whether it's choosing to cycle on roads, trying to cross the road when the lights are about to change, opening the door to a stranger knocking, eating at a restaurant when you have no idea how their food hygiene is...any of of these things can be and has been fatal. I think some people just feel the need to victim blame someone who has been very unlucky so they can convince themselves that the victim was an irresponsible idiot and that the same could never happen to them.

There are low risk activities where the dubious benefits are clear, low risk activities with few/ benefits, medium risk activities with same and high risk activities with same. Of note, risk is a measure of both likelihood of the occurrence of any event as well as severity of potential "go wrong" scenarios.

Taking ecstasy tablets for example is low risk for the majority of people and goes right a lot of the time. Nevertheless, potential bad consequences are severe and the potential benefits are dubious.

I personally strongly disagree that having an ONS with a significantly stronger person from a highly un-enlightened culture in a location determined by him is a low risk situation with clear benefits.

Kidchameleon · 13-04-2018 06:13AM

If George Hook was not shamed for what he said, this poor woman might have heard his message and avoided this ordeal. So what if he was "offensive", he said what needed to be said.

Irish woman gang raped by 6 men in Czech hotel

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