Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

McMurphy · 10-04-2018 02:40PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I have heard absolutely zero from any other party ref. the ILA.

Did you use Google

This story is from 23hrs ago.....

SDLP confirms support for Irish Language Act at party conference

SDLP has reiterated its support for the Irish language and a rights based Irish language act.

Members voted for a motion that supports the establishment of a rights based Irish Language Act, which would include the establishment of the Office of an Independent Irish Language Commissioner.

The motion was proposed by Mid Ulster MLA, Patsy McGlone and seconded by his colleague Councillor Martin Kearney.

Alliance party.

Alliance Party leader Naomi Long has called on the British government to inject momentum in a new Stormont talks process after Easter as she warned the “window of opportunity” to get a deal is closing.

More than 14 months after devolved government in Northern Ireland collapsed and five phases of talks later there is little trust left between the DUP and Sinn Féin.

At the Alliance conference in the Stormont Hotel on Saturday, Ms Long said its new Next Steps Forward proposals document is a genuine attempt to create space politically in which broader agreement is possible and an Executive can be formed.

Proposals in it include: Westminster reforming the petition of concern veto mechanism and legislating on the contentious issues of same sex marriage, legacy and an Irish language Act; multi-party talks led by a independent facilitator, and the convening of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference.

That should tell us something on this issue surely.

It does indeed.

Now what?

LuckyLloyd · 10-04-2018 03:07PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I have heard absolutely zero from any other party ref. the ILA.

That should tell us something on this issue surely.

Ah come on, this is a terrible post. Do you have any familiarity with this issue at all?

charlie14 · 10-04-2018 06:24PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I am not blaming SF for the absence of an executive, there are plenty of people up there at fault, in their typical blunt approach.

However, what I am saying is that there is an opportunity for Sinn Fein to drop their demands, get the Assembly up and running, and bring a domestic Northern Ireland focus to what is happening with Brexit. Unfortunately, an ILA has greater importance to them than Brexit.

That reminded me of a certain poster with a similar apples and oranges argument in the water charges thread who believed we should accept water charges because the EU would then cut us some slack on our corporate tax rate.

With the DUP aligning themselves with Westminster the Northern Assembly would not make a blind bit of difference.
You have only to look at Scotland, who voted to remain, to see how little the view of the Scottish Assembly on Brexit is regarded in Westminster.

Let the DUP off and work on their British approach to Brexit so that when the pain hits their supporters will know exactly who to blame.
We are better off dealing with it on an all island basis.

charlie14 · 10-04-2018 06:28PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I have heard absolutely zero from any other party ref. the ILA.

That should tell us something on this issue surely.

In fairness Brendan you may not have been keeping up to date on this, thus knowing no better, but your thanker certainly has and knows otherwise.

billy few mates · 10-04-2018 07:46PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Once again, and has been pointed out numerous times, it isn't solely the wishes of SF to have an Irish language act, it is something all of the main party's want, and something the dup had agreed upon, but reneged upon.

So, in essence what you're doing is suggesting that everyone else should be dancing to the dups tune, and letting them ride roughshod over everyone else for the greater good.

Am I missing anything here?

Yeah but why now..?
You haven’t had an Irish Language Act for the last twenty years or an Irish Language for the last eight hundred, it’s already been established that such an act will do nothing to enhance the lives of a single individual in the north and most people couldn’t give a fiddlers fcuk about it but now with Brexit the whole house is crumbling around you and it’s suddenly the most important thing in the world to Spin Feign...?

Or am I missing anything here...?
I understand the need for accountability and not letting the DUP ‘renege’ on their commitments (not letting anyone get away with it as Happyman used to say) but why now...?

FrancieBrady · 10-04-2018 07:50PM

billy few mates wrote: »

Yeah but why now..?
You haven’t had an Irish Language Act for the last twenty years or an Irish Language for the last eight hundred, it’s already been established that such an act will do nothing to enhance the lives of a single individual in the north and most people couldn’t give a fiddlers fcuk about it but now with Brexit the whole house is crumbling around you and it’s suddenly the most important thing in the world to Spin Feign...?

Or am I missing anything here...?
I understand the need for accountability and not letting the DUP ‘renege’ on their commitments (not letting anyone get away with it as Happyman used to say) but why now...?

When do you think equality on a number of issues, should be delivered?
Have you a timescale or a time when it would be opportune?

Brendan Bendar · 10-04-2018 07:50PM

charlie14 wrote: »

In fairness Brendan you may not have been keeping up to date on this, thus knowing no better, but your thanker certainly has and knows otherwise.

Thanks, Cha, but in fairness I was merely stating fact.

I have never heard on any platform good bad or indifferent parties other than SF and the DUP being vocal either for or against the ILA.

It wouldn’t be high on my lists of interest either,so maybe I wasn’t listening to the radio stations or TV shows where other parties got involved .

But it doesn’t alter the fact that what I stated was correct both then and now.

billy few mates · 10-04-2018 07:51PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I have heard absolutely zero from any other party ref. the ILA.

That should tell us something on this issue surely.

Do keep up Brendan, everybody knows the ILA is the most important piece of legislation in the whole history of Northern Ireland, how else are the unionists supposed to be kept in their place if you can’t rename their streets as gaeilge...?
Northern Ireland can only move forward when its citizens have access to more Irish Language classes or something...

FrancieBrady · 10-04-2018 07:54PM

billy few mates wrote: »

Do keep up Brendan, everybody knows the ILA is the most important piece of legislation in the whole history of Northern Ireland, how else are the unionists supposed to be kept in their place if you can’t rename their streets as gaeilge...?
Northern Ireland can only move forward when its citizens have access to more Irish Language classes or something...

Again you are posting from a position of ignorance.
There is no proposal to rename streets against the wishes of residents.
Brendan and yourself really do need to familiarise yourselves with the basics here.

McMurphy · 10-04-2018 07:56PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Thanks, Cha, but in fairness I was merely stating fact.

I have never heard on any platform good bad or indifferent parties other than SF and the DUP being vocal either for or against the ILA.

It wouldn’t be high on my lists of interest either,so maybe I wasn’t listening to the radio stations or TV shows where other parties got involved .

But it doesn’t alter the fact that what I stated was correct both then and now.

Um, no you were absolutely wrong, then and now.

What's amazing , unbelievable actually, is that you have blatantly and unashamedly ignored two news articles directly contradicting you.

billy few mates wrote: »

Do keep up Brendan, everybody knows the ILA is the most important piece of legislation in the whole history of Northern Ireland, how else are the unionists supposed to be kept in their place if you can’t rename their streets as gaeilge...?
Northern Ireland can only move forward when its citizens have access to more Irish Language classes or something...

Link please to where this is being proposed to be implemented anywhere by anyone?

I'd say thanks in advance, but we both know a link isn't forthcoming.

Brendan Bendar · 10-04-2018 07:58PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Again you are posting from a position of ignorance.
There is no proposal to rename streets against the wishes of residents.
Brendan and yourself really do need to familiarise yourselves with the basics here.

I merely quoted facts, so please don’t assume I need to “familiarise “ myself with anything.

FrancieBrady · 10-04-2018 08:00PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I merely quoted facts, so please don’t assume I need to “familiarise “ myself with anything.

The fact that you don't know what is going on.

Brendan Bendar · 10-04-2018 08:01PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Um, no you were absolutely wrong, then and now.

What's amazing , unbelievable actually, is that you have blatantly and unashamedly ignored two news articles directly contradicting you.

Link please to where this is being proposed to be implemented anywhere by anyone?

I'd say thanks in advance, but we both know a link isn't forthcoming.

Contradicting what exactly.

Remember the clue is the word ‘heard’

James Brown · 10-04-2018 08:08PM

billy few mates wrote: »

Yeah but why now..?
You haven’t had an Irish Language Act for the last twenty years or an Irish Language for the last eight hundred, it’s already been established that such an act will do nothing to enhance the lives of a single individual in the north and most people couldn’t give a fiddlers fcuk about it but now with Brexit the whole house is crumbling around you and it’s suddenly the most important thing in the world to Spin Feign...?

Or am I missing anything here...?
I understand the need for accountability and not letting the DUP ‘renege’ on their commitments (not letting anyone get away with it as Happyman used to say) but why now...?

Yes. You are.
It's worse than you guess.
This was proposed long before Brexit. Many years. So 'why now?' doesn't come into it. The timing is not related to Brexit one bit.

The Irish language umbrella group, Pobal, has been focusing on the question of an Irish Language Act since 2003 and its chief executive, Janet Muller, said: "The Irish Language Act was promised in the St Andrews' Agreement in 2006.

Also, people do seemingly give tuppence hapenny;

Other Irish language groups have also lobbied for legislation which has the political support of both the SDLP and Sinn Féin.
The Alliance Party supports the creation of a comprehensive languages act covering "indigenous languages and other spoken languages used within Northern Ireland, as well as various sign languages.
But both main unionist parties oppose the proposed legislation.
Irish language activists point out that the Gaelic Language Act protects Scottish Gaelic in Scotland, despite the fact that, according census figures, there are fewer speakers of Gaelic in Scotland than Irish in Northern Ireland.

Anyone pointing to, continuing to point to Sinn Fein as the lone agitator on this couldn't be more, (continuously) wrong.
There is cross party support, so the premise of the thread is flipped. The DUP are the hold outs, and renegers.

It gets more silly:

However, when a unionist councillor in Ballymena complained that new covers installed in the town included the word "uisce", no-one was particularly surprised.
This is because "uisce" is the Irish word for water - two of the new covers installed as part of an improvement scheme were found to be bilingual.
The difficulty was 'resolved' by the Irish word being scraped off, but it was an illustration of how polarised attitudes to the Irish language are in Northern Ireland.
Despite only a minority of the population speaking Irish as a vernacular, the language is seen as important to the wider nationalist community, and a small number of unionists, as a symbol of identity.

And finally:

Over 179,000 claim some knowledge of Irish according to the 2011 census, almost 11% of the population, however only 4,045 said that Irish was their main language.
Place-names in Northern Ireland come from a variety of sources, however the vast majority derive from Irish.
There were over 6,000 children being educated through Irish in Northern Ireland in 2016-17 according to Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta, the body which promotes Irish medium education, there are no schools teaching through Ulster-Scots.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-38601181

So it's concede to the brattyness of the lone political point of view of the DUP, ignoring the views of all others, while uniformed folk think this is about Sinn Fein alone, being stubborn....something something.
I await the non-partisan thrashing of the DUP based on the realities of the issue....

blanch152 · 10-04-2018 08:13PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Thanks, Cha, but in fairness I was merely stating fact.

I have never heard on any platform good bad or indifferent parties other than SF and the DUP being vocal either for or against the ILA.

It wouldn’t be high on my lists of interest either,so maybe I wasn’t listening to the radio stations or TV shows where other parties got involved .

But it doesn’t alter the fact that what I stated was correct both then and now.

To be fair to them, all the other parties are in favour of an ILA.

To be fair to you, it is way down the list for all other parties in a list of priorities. Brexit, Brexit, Brexit, is top of the list for every party except Sinn Fein. Statements from the SDLP or the Alliance on an ILA get a paragraph once a year, Brexit dominates the headlines.

You are right though, the attitude is that the DUP can't be let get away with it, and if that means dropping the ball on Brexit, Sinn Fein appear to be ok with that.

FrancieBrady · 10-04-2018 08:19PM

blanch152 wrote: »

To be fair to them, all the other parties are in favour of an ILA.

To be fair to you, it is way down the list for all other parties in a list of priorities. Brexit, Brexit, Brexit, is top of the list for every party except Sinn Fein. Statements from the SDLP or the Alliance on an ILA get a paragraph once a year, Brexit dominates the headlines.

You are right though, the attitude is that the DUP can't be let get away with it, and if that means dropping the ball on Brexit, Sinn Fein appear to be ok with that.

Brexit is a priority for SF, they are happy with an all island approach on it. And according to people on the Brexit thread, Ireland have played well on Brexit and northern Ireland. Would you disagree with that?

Brendan Bendar · 10-04-2018 08:21PM

blanch152 wrote: »

To be fair to them, all the other parties are in favour of an ILA.

To be fair to you, it is way down the list for all other parties in a list of priorities. Brexit, Brexit, Brexit, is top of the list for every party except Sinn Fein. Statements from the SDLP or the Alliance on an ILA get a paragraph once a year, Brexit dominates the headlines.

You are right though, the attitude is that the DUP can't be let get away with it, and if that means dropping the ball on Brexit, Sinn Fein appear to be ok with that.

I know that Blanch I know they are in favour.

My only point was that I never heard any of them contributing good or bad on any discussion shows I listened to. I have heard loads from SF and the DUP.

What that tells me is that, as you said, it’s not high on their agenda.

Those were my only points.

No less no more

blanch152 · 10-04-2018 08:21PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When do you think equality on a number of issues, should be delivered?
Have you a timescale or a time when it would be opportune?

Well, it seems there is a Westminister bill that will deliver same sex marriage in the North.

The ILA issue is a different one. I have seen convincing comment around the possibility of further ghettoisation in Northern Ireland if an ILA similar to the South is introduced. Integration rather than separation is what Northern Ireland needs. Artificial segregation using a language that was dead in the mid-1970s would not be in anyone's interest.

FrancieBrady · 10-04-2018 08:23PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, it seems there is a Westminister bill that will deliver same sex marriage in the North.

The ILA issue is a different one. I have seen convincing comment around the possibility of further ghettoisation in Northern Ireland if an ILA similar to the South is introduced. Integration rather than separation is what Northern Ireland needs. Artificial segregation using a language that was dead in the mid-1970s would not be in anyone's interest.

So you are against an ILA at any time?

billy few mates · 10-04-2018 08:26PM

The ILA hasn’t even been costed by Spin Feign, nobody has a clue exactly how much it would cost to roll out the proposals in the Irish Language Act but which section of the community is most likely to benefit from the payday bonanza likely to be generated by any legislation requiring the translation of government proceedings, court proceedings, public signage into Irish...?
Northern Ireland is on its knees economically, that Spin Feign put such a high priority on a vanity project such as this, at a time like this shows how ill suited they are for any level of government...

blanch152 · 10-04-2018 08:28PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Brexit is a priority for SF, they are happy with an all island approach on it. And according to people on the Brexit thread, Ireland have played well on Brexit and northern Ireland. Would you disagree with that?

This is the ILA thread so I am reluctant to address this point, but I will do so once.

Sinn Fein have contributed next to nothing on Brexit.

They have made no contribution in Westminister.
They have made no interventions through the Assembly in the North.
They opted out of going into Government in the South.

Yes, Ireland have played well on Brexit, but Sinn Fein have played no part, sitting on the fence, hurling from the ditch.

McMurphy · 10-04-2018 08:29PM

billy few mates wrote: »

The ILA hasn’t even been costed by Spin Feign, nobody has a clue exactly how much it would cost to roll out the proposals in the Irish Language Act but which section of the community is most likely to benefit from the payday bonanza likely to be generated by any legislation requiring the translation of government proceedings, court proceedings, public signage into Irish...?
Northern Ireland is on its knees economically, that Spin Feign put such a high priority on a vanity project such as this, at a time like this shows how ill suited they are for any level of government...

Billy I admire your uncanny ability to shift to different tangents when your previous posts have been called out and smashed to smithereens.

One could be forgiven for thinking that you're not actually interested in honest and mature debate, but just want to stir the pot a bit with obvious and blatant mistruth.

FrancieBrady · 10-04-2018 08:32PM

blanch152 wrote: »

This is the ILA thread so I am reluctant to address this point, but I will do so once.

Sinn Fein have contributed next to nothing on Brexit.

They have made no contribution in Westminister.
They have made no interventions through the Assembly in the North.
They opted out of going into Government in the South.

Yes, Ireland have played well on Brexit, but Sinn Fein have played no part, sitting on the fence, hurling from the ditch.

I think they have.
But allowing you your point, it is still politically astute to allow Dublin lead on this.
Remembering too, that SF are not in existence to further your agendas but those of those that vote for them. Who seem more than happy with them. To the extent that their nearest competitors are considering scuttling the SDLP ship.

billy few mates · 10-04-2018 08:33PM

Brexit is like a car careering towards a cliff, Sinn Féin’s stance on the NI executive and the ILA is akin to them complaining about the colour of the seat covers in the car...

blanch152 · 10-04-2018 08:42PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you are against an ILA at any time?

I didn't say that.

However, I have significant concerns based on an article I read in relation to ghettoisation. How many unionists will want to live in a neighbourhood surrounded by irish language signs? How many nationalists will want to live in a neighbourhood without them? Is that type of segregation what you really want?

FrancieBrady · 10-04-2018 08:43PM

billy few mates wrote: »

Brexit is like a car careering towards a cliff, Sinn Féin’s stance on the NI executive and the ILA is akin to them complaining about the colour of the seat covers in the car...

You work a campaign that delivers a No to Brexit vote in northern Ireland and the party representing the minority view get into a cuddly arrangement with the Tories.
That is akin to getting control of the steering but there is a juggernaut behind you pushing you over anyway.

FrancieBrady · 10-04-2018 08:44PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I didn't say that.

However, I have significant concerns based on an article I read in relation to ghettoisation. How many unionists will want to live in a neighbourhood surrounded by irish language signs? How many nationalists will want to live in a neighbourhood without them? Is that type of segregation what you really want?

So you aren't against it then? Which is it?

blanch152 · 10-04-2018 08:53PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think they have.
But allowing you your point, it is still politically astute to allow Dublin lead on this.
Remembering too, that SF are not in existence to further your agendas but those of those that vote for them. Who seem more than happy with them. To the extent that their nearest competitors are considering scuttling the SDLP ship.

If you aim is to make political capital from an issue, then it is politically astute of Sinn Fein to allow Dublin lead on this.

However, Brexit is the most important issue to face this country in decades. They would want to be careful that voters don't ask where they were when the country needed them.

blanch152 · 10-04-2018 08:56PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you aren't against it then? Which is it?

I would have been in favour of a Minorities Language Act. I am now a little bit undecided because of the dangers of ghettoisation and segregation. Certainly, any Languages Act would have to be symbolic rather than practical.

FrancieBrady · 10-04-2018 08:59PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I would have been in favour of a Minorities Language Act. I am now a little bit undecided because of the dangers of ghettoisation and segregation. Certainly, any Languages Act would have to be symbolic rather than practical.

So you are against an ILA? Just wanted to know.

Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

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