Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

ancapailldorcha

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

This thread is about Sinn Fein's stance on an Irish language act in Northern Ireland. Its gone waaaay off-topic and descended into the usual SF-related sniping between the usual suspects.

The forum is for debate, not bickering. If you're looking for trench warfare, look elsewhere.

I've changed the thread title to make clear what this thread is about.

Thanks.

This has gone ignored so I've had to dispense a few sanctions. No more please.

FrancieBrady

It was interesting listening to the 20th anniversary discussions last night. To almost a man/woman Unionists were trying to make the single issue of an ILA the sticking point for the collapse of the executive while everyone else was careful to point out all the equality issues and that the cumulative stagnation of the process (which the GFA is) was the primary issue.
There is an ongoing 'campaign' to trivialise republican/nationalist issues around the collapse when the problems run deeper than that.

recedite

Yes, it was interesting listening to Gerry Adams waxing lyrical about the GFA on its anniversary.
You'd never guess from listening to him now, that he actually slipped away without ever signing up for it.

The plenary was a low-key affair at which all the party leaders assented to the agreement except for Adams, who said he was very positive but had to consult with his party conference. There was no applause, just stunned silence. Tony and Bertie left before the votes of thanks and mutual congratulations so that they could be the first out to explain the agreement to the media...

http://www.thejournal.ie/good-friday-agreement-what-is-it-3928739-Mar2018/

FrancieBrady

recedite wrote: »

Yes, it was interesting listening to Gerry Adams waxing lyrical about the GFA on its anniversary.
You'd never guess from listening to him now, that he actually slipped away without ever signing up for it.
http://www.thejournal.ie/good-friday-agreement-what-is-it-3928739-Mar2018/

Only Ireland and the British government signed the GFA.

Although the Democratic Unionist Party was the only major party in Northern Ireland to oppose the agreement (along with the more marginal UKUP), both the UUP and Sinn Féin said that they would have to refer the document to their wider memberships before signing up to the deal.

Most of the political parties signed the Multi Party Agreement after getting the agreement of their parties.

McMurphy

recedite wrote: »

Yes, it was interesting listening to Gerry Adams waxing lyrical about the GFA on its anniversary.
You'd never guess from listening to him now, that he actually slipped away without ever signing up for it.
http://www.thejournal.ie/good-friday-agreement-what-is-it-3928739-Mar2018/

That's a bit desperate tbh.

There was no way for any individual political party to sign up to the GFA, it was a UK-Irish govt agreement, signed by them.

If we are to follow your analogy it was signed by none of the partys in the north.

Is this genuine clueless-ness at play here or what

James Brown

recedite wrote: »

Yes, it was interesting listening to Gerry Adams waxing lyrical about the GFA on its anniversary.
You'd never guess from listening to him now, that he actually slipped away without ever signing up for it.
http://www.thejournal.ie/good-friday-agreement-what-is-it-3928739-Mar2018/

I see the Unionist paramilitaries are officially on board...since last week.

The ILA as a lone sticking point brought by one party is a PR ruse. Somebody needs to stand up to political parties such as the DUP who will play loose with supposed political morals and ideology for self gain and it's good to see broad political support in that even if some have the wool pulled over their eyes. The school dinners issue was a low move.

Edward M

Interesting interview with Peter Robinson here.
He pretty bigs up MMG and wonders if in better health would he have went down the route he did re the Assembly.
He also hints at Arlene Fosters reasoning for her stance may be based more on her personal feelings because of IRA violence rather than what is probably best for the political situation.
He still holds the unionist high ground of course also, but overall he hints that more compromising leadership would have the assembly back up and running again and that's what would be best for NI.
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/peter-robinson-i-never-fought-with-martin-mcguinness-and-if-hed-been-healthy-things-could-have-been-different-36800075.html

McMurphy

Edward M wrote: »

Interesting interview with Peter Robinson here.
He pretty bigs up MMG and wonders if in better health would he have went down the route he did re the Assembly.
He also hints at Arlene Fosters reasoning for her stance may be based more on her personal feelings because of IRA violence rather than what is probably best for the political situation.
He still holds the unionist high ground of course also, but overall he hints that more compromising leadership would have the assembly back up and running again and that's what would be best for NI.
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/peter-robinson-i-never-fought-with-martin-mcguinness-and-if-hed-been-healthy-things-could-have-been-different-36800075.html

Robinson makes some good points, especially how he and McGuinness sorted their differences, even if it went on behind the scenes.

He makes the point that the DUP felt they could trust McGuinness, think about that. A self admitted IRA member, yet O'Neill - with no such connections, seemingly isn't trusted?

I'm not so sure about McGuinness' being in poor or good health would have made much difference, he stated several times that their could be no return to the status quo, I think it's safe to assume McGuinness made this point, not as being of his own personal views, but the views of the wider republican (and indeed nationalist community)

Lastly, if Arlene Foster is holding personal grudges on any issues to the past, perhaps she's not the person for the job up there?

Things happened on both sides, both communities have their own hurtful and distasteful experiences of the conflict.

Republicans (this is solely my own opinion) definitely seem to be willing to move on more than unionists.

There will be no return to the status quo. That's something they'll need to get used to, and soon, and its a good thing.

FrancieBrady

The GFA was stagnating long before MMG even got ill

James Brown

I would suggest Foster is more about avoiding court re the heating scandal and her gripe is purely personal. She backed down to her grass roots re the reneging on the ILA so she's capable of change when it suits her.

Edward M

There's another thread on this, but doesent it seem like MLMD is making an effort to concile things a bit here.
I would feel she is attempting to be very inclusive of both traditions with this!
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/sinn-feins-mcdonald-uses-term-londonderry-and-backs-unionist-election-candidate-36842072.html

FrancieBrady

Edward M wrote: »

There's another thread on this, but doesent it seem like MLMD is making an effort to concile things a bit here.
I would feel she is attempting to be very inclusive of both traditions with this!
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/sinn-feins-mcdonald-uses-term-londonderry-and-backs-unionist-election-candidate-36842072.html

No idea what the surprise is about ML. Republicans have led the way on stuff like this, from the start of the Peace Process.
Anyone with even a smattering of knowledge knows this.
A quick google shows you how difficult it has been for some.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=ian+paisley+refuses+to+shake+Mcguinness+hand&oq=ian+paisley+refuses+to+shake+Mcguinness+hand&aqs=chrome..69i57.14174j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Edward M

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No idea what the surprise is about ML. Republicans have led the way on stuff like this, from the start of the Peace Process.
Anyone with even a smattering of knowledge knows this.
A quick google shows you how difficult it has been for some.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=ian+paisley+refuses+to+shake+Mcguinness+hand&oq=ian+paisley+refuses+to+shake+Mcguinness+hand&aqs=chrome..69i57.14174j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

How many have called Derry Londonderry?
SF have a sectarian backbone, north of the border anyway, I think ML is trying to bend that somewhat, she is starting to show her more reasoned than some credentials, that is a good thing for me, MMG had that ability too, not many SF reps north of the border had or have it!

Red_Wake

Edward M wrote: »

There's another thread on this, but doesent it seem like MLMD is making an effort to concile things a bit here.
I would feel she is attempting to be very inclusive of both traditions with this!
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/sinn-feins-mcdonald-uses-term-londonderry-and-backs-unionist-election-candidate-36842072.html

I actually approve of her use of both terms. Inclusive, though the article has a few quotes from scandalised republicans.

Overall, good to see her move on from the more petty politics of NI, and having found an ally on the other side of the fence, provides a solid high profile example of cross community, which has been largely absent since the Assembly collapsed.

Wheeliebin30

She started badly with the up the rebel’s speech but is trying now I suppose.

Maybe a good next move would the Sinn Féin website to stop selling memorabilia of murderers if their serious about leaving the past behind.

FrancieBrady

Edward M wrote: »

How many have called Derry Londonderry?
SF have a sectarian backbone, north of the border anyway, I think ML is trying to bend that somewhat, she is starting to show her more reasoned than some credentials, that is a good thing for me, MMG had that ability too, not many SF reps north of the border had or have it!

Calling Derry - 'Londonderry' is now the benchmark for reconciliation efforts?

I think some people need to open their eyes and see who is streets ahead on these issues.

Like McGuinness shaking the queen's hand this is just another challenge to belligerent Unionism.
Could you seriously see Arlene call it 'Derry' anytime soon?

FrancieBrady

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

She started badly with the up the rebel’s speech but is trying now I suppose.

Maybe a good next move would the Sinn Féin website to stop selling memorabilia of murderers if their serious about leaving the past behind.

That would be like asking the British Army to stop memorialising killers.

SF/republicans see them as freedom fighters, that is just fact. You neither have to visit the SF shop or the website, just as I don't have to visit similar British sites or buy a poppy etc etc.

Unionists don't have to buy memorabilia of our Rising either, but it is still on sale and the exact same killing of people is endorsed/celebrated and commemorated by FF, FG and the Irish people in securing our freedom. Even our Anthem celebrates it.

What is needed on the island is respect for the dead and the right of people to remember.

Edward M

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Calling Derry - 'Londonderry' is now the benchmark for reconciliation efforts?

I think some people need to open their eyes and see who is streets ahead on these issues.

Like McGuinness shaking the queen's hand this is just another challenge to belligerent Unionism.
Could you seriously see Arlene call it 'Derry' anytime soon?

I see it as positive, a good thing, better than posting loafs of kingsmill bread or tweeting sectarian bs**t.
Still there's always belligerent so and so's everywhere that will use any positives to throw digs at the other side! Any politician has a hard job breaking new ground when there ate people supposedly on the same side still spouting the, but look at the other side, rhetoric.
Good luck to her I say, I hope at least the other side greet it with a bit of positivity.

FrancieBrady

Edward M wrote: »

I see it as positive, a good thing, better than posting loafs of kingsmill bread or tweeting sectarian bs**t.
Still there's always belligerent so and so's everywhere that will use any positives to throw digs at the other side! Any politician has a hard job breaking new ground when there ate people supposedly on the same side still spouting the, but look at the other side, rhetoric.
Good luck to her I say, I hope at least the other side greet it with a bit of positivity.

The fact you are only noticing the efforts republican leaders have gone to before this says a lot.

I think if some paid more attention more pressure could be brought onto the last remnants of 'belligerent' leadership.
Which is truly there. The DUP will belittle the south and republicanism whenever it feels itself challenged.
There has been a consistent rhetoric of conciliation from republican leaders since the conflict ended, which was what was expected of them, in fairness.

Never mind ML's continuation of that trend, it really isn't all that unusual. How about southeners calling out the continued entrenched rhetoric of unionism for a refreshing change?

James Brown

Edward M wrote: »

I see it as positive, a good thing, better than posting loafs of kingsmill bread or tweeting sectarian bs**t.
Still there's always belligerent so and so's everywhere that will use any positives to throw digs at the other side! Any politician has a hard job breaking new ground when there ate people supposedly on the same side still spouting the, but look at the other side, rhetoric.
Good luck to her I say, I hope at least the other side greet it with a bit of positivity.

Like you just did. The difference I see is anytime any FF or FG politician make a speech, it's criticised or commended based on its merits. Not, 'well it's better than glassing someone in the face or taking a bribe' and of course miscellaneous references to the troubles.

blanch152

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

She started badly with the up the rebel’s speech but is trying now I suppose.

Maybe a good next move would the Sinn Féin website to stop selling memorabilia of murderers if their serious about leaving the past behind.

To be fair, the rhetoric from Mary Lou is beginning to be more conciliatory and her speech mentioning Londonderry is a landmark change in terms of SF reaching out.

However, like you, do what I do not do what I say, and until there are concrete steps taken like the one you mention about the unacceptable merchandise on the SF website, there will be plenty who will have doubts about the sincerity of Mary Lou's pronouncements.

McMurphy

Just on the McDonald thing, bit of a non story if you ask me, she just referred to the city in the way both communities refer to it up there, Nationalist folk call it Derry, unionists refer to it as Lderry.

As she was in the company of unionist farmers, she catered for her audience.

She showed the respect her DUP counterparts would never return.

"Curry my yoghurt can cola"

By the way, what unacceptable stuff is on the website?

Is this a case of people looking for something to be annoyed about?

recedite

"Londonderry" spoken publicly and coming from within the SF party machine is still a first.

This is more interesting though. Leo and Mary Lou hatching a plan together?

Sinn F has said it will back Ian Marshall, a unionist former president of the Ulster Farmers' Union, in this week's Irish Senate by-election.
Mr Marshall was nominated for the seat by Taoiseach Leo Varadkar in February.
The seat had been left vacant by the resignation of Labour Senator Denis Landy.
It was reported at the time that the taoiseach was keen to introduce a unionist perspective to discussion and debate in the Seanad (senate).
Mr Marshall, who owns a farm near Markethill, County Armagh, has also consistently opposed Brexit, insisting there was "no compelling argument" for the UK to leave the European Union and that Northern Ireland's farmers would be better served remaining inside the European Union.

Mary Lou wrote:

"I believe Ian can bring a new and interesting voice to the discussion surrounding a 'new Ireland'."

What's this new Ireland you speak of Mary Lou, did you mean a UI?

Anti-Brexit unionist farmers are exactly the people who can deliver a UI, so it looks like the charm offensive has begun.
If things turn sour in the UK/EU negotiations, Phase 2 of the charm offensive could be some sort of special EU Ulster regional farm subsidy, only payable when your land is inside the EU.

James Brown

recedite wrote: »

"Londonderry" spoken publicly and coming from within the SF party machine is still a first.

This is more interesting though. Leo and Mary Lou hatching a plan together?


What's this new Ireland you speak of Mary Lou, did you mean a UI?

Anti-Brexit unionist farmers are exactly the people who can deliver a UI, so it looks like the charm offensive has begun.
If things turn sour in the UK/EU negotiations, Phase 2 of the charm offensive could be some sort of special EU Ulster regional farm subsidy, only payable when your land is inside the EU.

Trying to be inclusive and representative. A good move on both their parts. Outdated hang ups won't get us anywhere. Now all we need is southern politicians to have the same attitude towards Sinn Fein and we might see a decent all Ireland representative government. They should really get into practice. Be odd to refuse to partner or accept SF as a democratically elected party in a united Ireland.

McMurphy

recedite wrote: »

"

What's this new Ireland you speak of Mary Lou?

.

Maybe it's the same new Ireland Enda and FG were promising back when they told the country a vote for them would mean an end to cronyism, nepotism, corruption, transparency in politics and a new way of doing business.

How that did end up going do you think?

Edward M

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Trying to be inclusive and representative. A good move on both their parts. Outdated hang ups won't get us anywhere. Now all we need is southern politicians to have the same attitude towards Sinn Fein and we might see a decent all Ireland representative government. They should really get into practice. Be odd to refuse to partner or accept SF as a democratically elected party in a united Ireland.

Careful there, where did this need for a UI come from all of a sudden?
SF are a democratically elected party now, I can't see any reason they can't be included in govt now if they can agree policies with another party or party's?

Squatter

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Maybe it's the same new Ireland Enda and FG were promising back when they told the country a vote for them would mean an end to cronyism, nepotism, corruption, transparency in politics and a new way of doing business.

How that did end up going do you think?

When did Enda/FG promise an end to transparency in politics?

James Brown

Edward M wrote: »

Careful there, where did this need for a UI come from all of a sudden?

There's been talk for a few generations now

Edward M wrote: »

SF are a democratically elected party now, I can't see any reason they can't be included in govt now if they can agree policies with another party or party's?

It's members of FG refusing to regardless of policies either party may have that's the bad joke. And again, policies are neither here nor there really. I mean FF can swear to what ever policy they like, but it's still FF. It's like letting a masked man carrying a sack labelled 'swag' mind your house because he says he'll make a great security guard for your loot.

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

the unacceptable merchandise on the SF website, there will be plenty who will have doubts about the sincerity of Mary Lou's pronouncements.

what exactly? For a start, their shop isnt sinnfein.ie (its http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com ) and I cant find one objectionable teeshirt or piece of clothing on it. Not one mention of the IRA on there. the 'worst' would be the Fenian teeshirts - but you wouldnt get the self depreciation of those I assume.

James Brown

maccored wrote: »

what exactly? For a start, their shop isnt sinnfein.ie (its http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com ) and I cant find one objectionable teeshirt or piece of clothing on it. Not one mention of the IRA on there. the 'worst' would be the Fenian teeshirts - but you wouldnt get the self depreciation of those I assume.

The last time I was in that shop was with my cousin who wanted Ireland/Irish shirts for going to Italia '90. We were in our young teens. When we left, plain clothes Garda asked us what we were doing in there and took our names. They later turned up to my cousins house, (him being the older I suppose) and my Uncle told them to go find something more important to do, or words to that effect