"Very good mother", avoids jail

ChikiChiki · 08-04-2018 06:45AM

Lydia Millions Varnish wrote: »

What's a better solution? Putting her in prison would leave five kids without their primary carer. Going to say there's a good chance the fathers are not involved either.

Legal abortion and free contraception is my best idea. But that has no bearing on this specific incident.

Kids should be removed from her care if thats the example she is setting. It will only cause problems for society in the future.

the_syco · 08-04-2018 06:47AM

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

but she isn't "vermin" either. People aren't vermin.

Hearing that Elaine Joyce (41) already had 138 previous convictions

How many convictions before you class them as vermin?

s7ryf3925pivug · 08-04-2018 06:55AM

We dont have a good record when it comes to children in the care of the state.
Looking after five kids is a lot of work. Putting someone in prison is expensive.
She is in a very difficult situation. I think it's better to address the root problem of people getting into such difficult situations in the first place.
Not defending her, just trying to be pragmatic.

Yer Da sells Avon · 08-04-2018 07:19AM

the_syco wrote: »

How many convictions before you class them as vermin?

Why would I want to class another human being as 'vermin'? Whatever crimes they've committed, they're no more 'vermin' than you are.

Peatys · 08-04-2018 07:27AM

corner of hells wrote: »

Just like that fcuker ,James Joyce , writing books and getting his statue put up.

All about context.

CeilingFly · 08-04-2018 07:40AM

Lydia Millions Varnish wrote: »

We dont have a good record when it comes to children in the care of the state.
Looking after five kids is a lot of work. Putting someone in prison is expensive.
She is in a very difficult situation. I think it's better to address the root problem of people getting into such difficult situations in the first place.
Not defending her, just trying to be pragmatic.

138 convictions!!!!

All with FREE legal aid - paid for courtesy of the tax payer.

Add in garda time, prosecution costs, witness costs, the cost of the crimea themselves and the obvious countless crimes she wasn't caught for.

Prison is best value by a mile.

Yer Da sells Avon · 08-04-2018 07:42AM

CeilingFly wrote: »

the cost of the crimea themselves

Crimea river.

badtoro · 08-04-2018 08:15AM

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

People aren't vermin.

You're mixing with the wrong crowd if you think that's not possible.

Graces7 · 08-04-2018 08:22AM

Lydia Millions Varnish wrote: »

We dont have a good record when it comes to children in the care of the state.
Looking after five kids is a lot of work. Putting someone in prison is expensive.
She is in a very difficult situation. I think it's better to address the root problem of people getting into such difficult situations in the first place.
Not defending her, just trying to be pragmatic.

Very well said. Thank you

Graces7 · 08-04-2018 08:22AM

badtoro wrote: »

You're mixing with the wrong crowd if you think that's not possible.

Back at you vice versa on that.

Graces7 · 08-04-2018 08:23AM

the_syco wrote: »

How many convictions before you class them as vermin?

You don't. Ever.

screamer · 08-04-2018 08:30AM

With a "role model" like that, what chance do the children of this "very good mother" have?

arybvtcw0eolkf · 08-04-2018 08:38AM

Fann Linn wrote: »

Lots of people are vermin, i'll start the list for you:
Fr.Brendan Smyth.

He's the first name to come to mind.

Ever see the infamous photo of him outside the forecourts, looking his most evil?.. Well I was on an escort and right behind that photographer and it was the most evil look I've ever seen from anyone.

That guy is lower than a vermin.

There are lots of people lower than vermin.

dan1895 · 08-04-2018 08:49AM

Someone acts like vermin so gets called vermin. But we shouldn't call them that because Nazis.

F*ck right off.

Tell me how · 08-04-2018 09:03AM

Lydia Millions Varnish wrote:

We dont have a good record when it comes to children in the care of the state. Looking after five kids is a lot of work. Putting someone in prison is expensive. She is in a very difficult situation. I think it's better to address the root problem of people getting into such difficult situations in the first place. Not defending her, just trying to be pragmatic.

You are defending her.
1-3-8!!

There has to be individual responsibility and that would help someone stop far short of committing enough crimes to be caught and convicted 138 times.

If not, then no one should be in prison because they can blame it on society for not helping them with their difficulties.

This person has likely been receiving rent allowance, welfare payments, children's allowance, access to social workers etc for a large portion of their life. The have had help with root problems.

If you held your breath and counted to 138, one number a second, you'd pass out before you finished.

08-04-2018 10:57AM

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

Nah, she's a person, just like you.

Nah not just like me. Has 138 convictions, that's the rap sheet of a scumbag. It seems calling someone scum or a scumbag is more of an offense to some than the actual crimes these tramps commit. I remember luvvies getting their knickers in a twist when the LIDL robbing scumbags were branded scum. They are scum. End of.

Blazer · 08-04-2018 11:01AM

dan1895 wrote: »

Someone acts like vermin so gets called vermin. But we shouldn't call them that because Nazis.

F*ck right off.

absolutely right,...if you're going to act like a complete scumbag and vermin then they should be called as is...
I can't wait for the day society cops the **** on and starts sterilizing all these scum to prevent them from pushing out more toerags.
Imagine we could wipe out all the vermin within one generation. And by natural causes..suck on that do-gooders.

08-04-2018 11:03AM

Graces7 wrote: »

You don't. Ever.

Child killers and serial pedophilic rapists are no better than vermin.

corks finest · 08-04-2018 11:08AM

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

Fann Linn wrote: »

Right angles!

Acute little angles.

Nice

corner of hells · 08-04-2018 11:26AM

Blazer wrote: »

absolutely right,...if you're going to act like a complete scumbag and vermin then they should be called as is...
I can't wait for the day society cops the **** on and starts sterilizing all these scum to prevent them from pushing out more toerags.
Imagine we could wipe out all the vermin within one generation. And by natural causes..suck on that do-gooders.

Sorta like what Hitler wanted ?

wexie · 08-04-2018 11:31AM

corner of hells wrote: »

Sorta like what Hitler wanted ?

Would have been a helluva lot less hooha about it if he had only aimed for those with 100+ convictions though don't you think?

Not saying I agree with forced sterilizations or anything.
But I'm not going to argue that there aren't people in this country who perhaps shouldn't be allowed procreate unchecked either. (or 'parent' their offspring at least).

Blazer · 08-04-2018 11:35AM

corner of hells wrote: »

Sorta like what Hitler wanted ?

absolutely like nothing Hitler wanted. Did you see a mention of gas chambers, extermination or concentration camps in my post? :rolleyes:

corner of hells · 08-04-2018 11:40AM

wexie wrote: »

Would have been a helluva lot less hooha about it if he had only aimed for those with 100+ convictions though don't you think?

Not saying I agree with forced sterilizations or anything.
But I'm not going to argue that there aren't people in this country who perhaps shouldn't be allowed procreate unchecked either. (or 'parent' their offspring at least).

Ah but the state does intervene , in the case of chronic addicts for example there is the option of a couple of different type of court orders from voluntary care with family right up the the Gardai and HSE getting involved both which have significant powers in this field and in turn brings us back to that woman who may very well be a good parent .
She may very well be a scumbag on the streets but behind closed doors none of us knows how she behaves.

corner of hells · 08-04-2018 11:43AM

Blazer wrote: »

absolutely like nothing Hitler wanted. Did you see a mention of gas chambers, extermination or concentration camps in my post? :rolleyes:

Forced sterilisation , wiping out people in a genartion ?

wexie · 08-04-2018 11:47AM

corner of hells wrote: »

Ah but the state does intervene , in the case of chronic addicts for example there is the option of a couple of different type of court orders from voluntary care with family right up the the Gardai and HSE getting involved both which have significant powers in this field and in turn brings us back to that woman who may very well be a good parent .
She may very well be a scumbag on the streets but behind closed doors none of us knows how she behaves.

Yes I guess it's possible, extremely unlikely nonetheless.

I don't know how the kids are, or how they're going to turn out.
I'd argue though that the mere fact of having 138 convictions at age 41 is setting a less than stellar example.

With regards to the garda and HSE powers I can tell you that they generally only get involved when there is a cause of urgent concern for the welfare of the children and that bar is set frighteningly low. (OH is a social worker)

That means as long as you clothe and feed your children but otherwise raise them in such a way they're likely to have 100+ convictions by age 40 the odds are the state will do a grand total of nothing.

Blazer · 08-04-2018 11:53AM

corner of hells wrote: »

Forced sterilisation , wiping out people in a genartion ?

no letting them die of natural causes...because Hitler let all those jews die of natural causes...sheesh..
Forced sterilization?
Absolutely....the world will eventually realize that we need to control our population or basically watch it overflow in a cessflow of scum and vermin.
When you have normal people only having 1-2 children and the vermin are popping out kids like rabbits how long do you think normal society can fund them?
Down the line we will start to see forced sterilization or controlled sterilization in order to control the population on the planet and ensure that only people who actually contribute to society and can afford it to have children.
Its the only way unless we see multiple wars/plagues wipe out a few hundred million people.
Or maybe we'll have found a new planet which we can live out and repeat endless mistakes over and over again.

quintana76 · 08-04-2018 11:54AM

taylor3 wrote: »

The name says it all 'Joyce'. Age 41 with loads of previous convictions. Ethnic minority.

Identity politics. Don't ya just love it. All the "victims" forced to commit crimes due to their exposure to white paternalist imperialist oppression. The judges can only be compensating for their colonial guilt (or something). Or else they just couldn't give a ****. The bottom line is that they are not doing their job to protect the public.

Ronin247 · 08-04-2018 12:00PM

Lydia Millions Varnish wrote: »

...............

Legal abortion and free contraception is my best idea. But that has no bearing on this specific incident.

About 42 years too late in this specific incident

Graces7 · 08-04-2018 12:04PM

Tell me how wrote: »

You are defending her.
1-3-8!!

This person has likely been receiving rent allowance, welfare payments, children's allowance, access to social workers etc for a large portion of their life. The have had help with root problems.

So? How is this relevant? We live in a welfare state which means the only criterion for benefits is need. They do not have to be earned or guilt tripped on. Going back to workhouse mentality here:rolleyes:

If you held your breath and counted to 138, one number a second, you'd pass out before you finished.

So ? Have you tried this?

Kivaro · 08-04-2018 12:39PM

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

It was her own solicitor who described her as "a very good mother, doing her best in difficult circumstances".

Why do we have to believe anything from someone who has 138 previous convictions? Had the solicitor proof that she was a very good mother, or was this something the criminal told the solicitor.

Either way, people are becoming immune to large numbers of convictions. What is really the difference between 138 previous convictions or 238 previous convictions, or even 38 previous convictions. All of these numbers are too high. Imagine the amount of effort required to rack up 138 convictions; and these are the ones where she was caught. This woman has wreaked havoc on society and she should be locked up for it. Her children should be removed and provided with the services required to reverse the previous experiences of living with a habitual criminal.

Then we read this from her apologists:

She may very well be a scumbag on the streets but behind closed doors none of us knows how she behaves.

I think we have a fair idea how this criminal behaves at home. This is not a Charles Dickens story of the mother going out to provide for her children. This is criminal recidivism at its worse, while highlighting the failures of the Irish criminal justice system.

"Very good mother", avoids jail

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