Two Families in Turmoil.....

07-04-2018 01:56PM

BoatMad wrote: »

under irish law, the child can be charged and prosecuted , an entirely different question is should he.

While I don't personally believe an 11 year old can be held fully criminally responsible (did he even know it was a crime?), I don't think that's a question that people would ask if he had stabbed a pensioner, or set a cat on fire, or slashed someones tyres. I think people would have no problem with him being charged with those crimes, which begs the question - why do we feel this is different?

I think the answer probably lies in something we might 'know' intuitively - that a child so sexually knowing is likely to have been someones victim himself and is repeating a learned behaviour.

The Bulger babys killers were ten, and they were charged and tried in both the courtroom and in the media, they were written off as evil. Perhaps they were given the nature of their crime, but as things stand it seems a bit all or nothing. We know they're not able to make balanced decisions in the same way adults can which is why they're charged and tried (mainly) as juveniles, but I have very contradictory feelings about things like this. He did commit a crime, he should know what he's responsible for, but he needs age appropriate punishment, rehab and help, and the system doesn't seem to do a great job at providing that.

I don't think the crime should go unpunished, but I don't think a child that young can be held completely responsible either. I just hope he gets treatment just as I hope the victim does, and I hope that he's removed from any situation that may have contributed to this, and that both of them feel safe and supported, as his actions are something both of them have to learn to live with.

07-04-2018 02:08PM

Gatling wrote: »

The problem is what is being discussed we do have any details ,no facts and likely that's as far as reporting will be allowed in papers ,

Look at the multiple claims of the male being exposed to abuse or pornography all baseless ,

I know a lady in her 40's who been sexually active since she was 10 years old well before the internet and she definitely said she never suffered abuse of any kind ,

So whats the discussion sexualisation of children or rape that might not be actual rape ,

I would argue that any child having sex at ten is being abused. They may not realise it or process it in that way though. If the partner is another child, that just makes two victims who've lost a substantial part of what makes childhood innocent and carefree. I would also wonder why a child of ten is so knowing about sex that they're out having it.

Ursus Horribilis · 07-04-2018 02:19PM

Candie wrote: »

I don't think the crime should go unpunished, but I don't think a child that young can be held completely responsible either. I just hope he gets treatment just as I hope the victim does, and I hope that he's removed from any situation that may have contributed to this and that both of them feel safe and supported, as his actions are something both of them have to learn to live with.

At best, this lad picked up his ideas of sex from porn videos. The very many ones out there where the woman says No at the start but soon changes her mind once she gets a right good seeing to. Sex is something that comes to most of us that bit later in life and by its nature it's different to other interactions we have with people. It's also a strange time for kids because you're starting to pay more attention to your own genitals and you're starting to mature.

If it wasn't him misunderstanding how sex should be, then a lot of questions need to be asked about the family background. Where were the parents during all of this?

07-04-2018 02:28PM

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

At best, this lad picked up his ideas of sex from porn videos. The very many ones out there where the woman says No at the start but soon changes her mind once she gets a right good seeing to. Sex is something that comes to most of us that bit later in life and by its nature it's different to other interactions we have with people. It's also a strange time for kids because you're starting to pay more attention to your own genitals and you're starting to mature.

If it wasn't him misunderstanding how sex should be, then a lot of questions need to be asked about the family background. Where were the parents during all of this?

If it was a case of misunderstanding - and why would he understand at eleven - then the issue of the victim comes in. I'm positive a nine year old wouldn't have been welcoming of these kind of advances and activity, if for no other reason that it wouldn't be comfortable at best and painful at worst. It's likely she screamed her head off, and he went ahead. So its a little more complex, I imagine. I still believe the boy is likely a victim too.

Of course it's also possible the kids are related as is often the case I believe, that the young girl wasn't being abused for the first time, and that he may not have had those cues.

All I know for certain is that it's tragic for both of them.

Wibbs · 07-04-2018 04:11PM

Candie wrote: »

I would also wonder why a child of ten is so knowing about sex that they're out having it.

I would wonder too C, but maybe we're having a generational blindness of sorts? Granted I'm well older than you, but at ten I knew pretty much nothing about sex and certainly not the mechanics of it. I found out during my early teens some of it through hearsay and the odd passed about the school dog eared porn mag. I'd reckon I saw my first porn video at 18/19. These days if I were ten and as curious as I was back then a couple of clicks on google on my home's computer/tablet/phone or a classmates whose parents were more lax and hands off and I'd find out the lot in double quick time, at least porn's idea of it.

It's a very different and much more sexualised world than the one I grew up in, even the generation after me wouldn't have had nearly the same access and exposure. I remember back in the early noughties I gave a lift to a lad I knew because he needed to collect his much younger sister from a supervised kids party. We picked up her and her two friends all around twelve and both him and me were genuinely shocked by the talk from them on the way home. Now it was the usual childish bravado, all talk to shock the big brother(I reverently hope), but what floored us was how adult that talk was. He told his parents and I gather they all had a calm discussion, but yeah, even then it was a near hidden alien world to me, this guy and his parents. And that was just before widespread broadband and proper interwebs connected phones.

TBH C to paraphrase your good self; I would wonder these days why a child of ten wasn't so knowing about sex.

I dunno what the solution is either. The genie is long outa the bottle. Parents and other adults in kid's lives have a part to play in hopefully keeping them safe, but like I said all it needs is a couple of kids among their wider peers whose folks and environment isn't so careful and hands on.

Wibbs · 07-04-2018 04:16PM

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

At best, this lad picked up his ideas of sex from porn videos. The very many ones out there where the woman says No at the start but soon changes her mind once she gets a right good seeing to.

Aye. I saw a programme a while back that explored this and young kids and not so young kids attitudes and expectations of sex and they've change over the last twenty, even ten years. EG the young men and women were into things that they thought were expected like facials and anal, even if neither were actually into that and apparently most weren't, both the men and women. Notions they admitted they'd picked up from porn and thought were the norm. The same researcher had done a similar study into younger type's expectations back in the early nineties IIRC and none of that stuff came up, or far far more rarely.

r93kaey5p2izun · 07-04-2018 04:38PM

I think most 11 year olds have viewed porn. When I was 10/11 in the early 90s, sex was something everyone looked up in the dictionary or an encyclopedia. I'm confident they do the very same now with google. But google gives very different results. That's all that's needed to access graphic sex images and videos - type nothing but the word sex into a search engine. Whether that's a factor in this case or other similar ones I couldn't say though.

I teach sex ed. If I had to guess based on comments and questions and incidents I deal with as a class tutor, I would say more than half of them have engaged in sexual activity by age 12. Not intercourse, but quite a bit more than kissing or "meeting". Informing parents and sometimes Tusla of disclosures of sexual activity in 1st and 2nd Years happens several times a year. I personally don't find this sort of news in any way surprising. I find it sad, scary and sickening, but I'm not even a little bit surprised.

meeeeh · 07-04-2018 06:54PM

Where I grew up there were no bans on pornography (for adults), by ten most of us came accross mags and some saw porn movies too by then. And some very hard core porn not just the usual Saturday night RTL Bavarian barn special (parents went out on Saturdays and we were left alone when we were slightly older). I'm not saying something like this didn't happen but I am certainly not aware of any case involving such young kids.

I think easy access to especially very aggressive and misogynus porn is worrying but I wouldn't blame everything on porn either. I have no response what to do except good education and parental responsibility but I you wouldn't want to make general conclusions on the basis of one very extreme case. It is also much more likely something like that would be reported today than 20 years ago.

07-04-2018 07:03PM

When I was ten I was playing with Barbie and collecting Pogs. If I'd seen hardcore porn, it probably would have terrified me. I feel sorry for kids, putting pressure on each other to grow up faster and faster. It'd be very sad if this case is the result of kids being sexualized by abuse, but in a way it'd be even sadder if it's a consequence of kids being introduced to porn and it being a 'normal' aspect of their lives at age ten or eleven.

I went to a strict boarding school at twelve where you had to use the library for internet, I spent many holidays at my grandparents houses were internet access was limited to one portal in a high traffic area, my parents refused access altogether when they weren't behind me, and I wasn't allowed a tv in my room. The only way they could keep me from seeing things I wasn't meant to is because it was pre smartphones and I don't know what the answer is to that threat. It's a lot of work keeping kids safe from themselves, as well as others.

Grandeeod · 07-04-2018 08:23PM

Very glad that debate hasn't been stifled by the calls for closing the thread. As the starter of the OP, I've done my best to keep track, because I absolutely don't think this thread is some random, let's have a laugh, AH's usual type of thing. But I honestly thought that this forum was the broadest forum to bring up the subject. Thanks for all contributions. It's a very very tough issue that really resonated with me as I have a daughter of 10 who has only been told about periods and how she will develop as a result. She recently got her first trainer bra and next on the list is the big talk about actual sex and all that goes with it.

I feel kind of lucky in that I have been around the internet since 1998 and seen all the developments and potential pitfalls. I'm not perfect by any means, but I continue to instill in my daughter an understanding of computer tech, the net, smart phones, Tablets etc. So many many parents right now only discovered the internet via smart phone and have no feckin idea how dangerous it can be.

All that said, I'm fully aware that things like the current case most likely happened before the days of the internet. So many cases over the years of incest etc. at very young ages have been reported. I'm personally aware of a particular non reported case similar to the current one back in the mid 90s that was put down to kids "playing". However I'm personally in no doubt that the internet has fast tracked so much. It wasn't long ago that technology brought us the concept of Sexting and sending porn like pics via mobiles. These days its a far wider reaching concept.

iamwhoiam · 07-04-2018 08:30PM

I know I am considered old and old fashioned but I am actually shocked to the core to read that 10 and 11 year old are accessing porn . I shielded my kids from adult programmes on the teli and thankfully we had no internet until they were older teens . Even then it was one PC and dial up so blocking the landline !
Surely there are not parents allowing 10 year old full access to all sites on a smart phone ?

Ursus Horribilis · 07-04-2018 08:33PM

Even if some kids have parents tech savvy enough to stop them accessing porn, there'll always be other kids in their circle who don't.

Ursus Horribilis · 07-04-2018 08:35PM

Do they have any sort of sex education in primary schools?

Purple Mountain · 07-04-2018 08:39PM

I'm going to throw this into the mix..
I didn't realise an 11 year old boy could get aroused.
Am I naive?

eviltwin · 07-04-2018 08:44PM

Big Ladd wrote: »

Typical Midlands hi jinks really.

You're making a joke about the rape of a child. FFS cop on to yourself.

iamwhoiam · 07-04-2018 08:47PM

Big Ladd wrote: »

Yeah using dark humor to deal with something bad. I'm literaly the first person ever in the history of mankind to do such a thing.

Thats not dark humour . Its not even bloody funny . Cop on

Mrs OBumble · 07-04-2018 08:49PM

Purple Mountain wrote: »

I'm going to throw this into the mix..
I didn't realise an 11 year old boy could get aroused.
Am I naive?

Yes.

Grandeeod · 07-04-2018 08:49PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I know I am considered old and old fashioned but I am actually shocked to the core to read that 10 and 11 year old are accessing porn . I shielded my kids from adult programmes on the teli and thankfully we had no internet until they were older teens . Even then it was one PC and dial up so blocking the landline !
Surely there are not parents allowing 10 year old full access to all sites on a smart phone ?

I'm nearly 47 and I think I'm fairly clued in to this. I hope I am. But I have witnessed girls as young as 11 with full access to the internet on a new iPhone or Smart phone. Its like a right of passage based on parents splashing out the money to get them the latest tech. But mammy and daddy are too thick to understand the consequences.

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Even if some kids have parents tech savvy enough to stop them accessing porn, there'll always be other kids in their circle who don't.

Agreed. But the parents need to be aware of that too and take action.

Purple Mountain wrote: »

I'm going to throw this into the mix..
I didn't realise an 11 year old boy could get aroused.
Am I naive?

I did, but never considered having sex.

Grandeeod · 07-04-2018 08:53PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Thats not dark humour . Its not even bloody funny . Cop on

Relax. This poster will be gone soon. I've reported. Do the same.

Sardonicat · 07-04-2018 08:55PM

Candie wrote: »

The only way they could keep me from seeing things I wasn't meant to is because it was pre smartphones and I don't know what the answer is to that threat. It's a lot of work keeping kids safe from themselves, as well as others.

Don't give kids portable electronic devices. They don't need them. They are not mature enough to self regulate their use and no where near mature enough to handle some of the things they will doubtlessly come across on the Internet when left unsupervised.

Sardonicat · 07-04-2018 09:03PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Surely there are not parents allowing 10 year old full access to all sites on a smart phone ?

Yup. Because every other child has full access so why should my child be different. That was the excuse presented to me recently. Doesn't it make you want to weep? But what do I know, I don't have kids.

Grandeeod · 07-04-2018 09:04PM

Sardonicat wrote: »

Don't give kids portable electronic devices. They don't need them. They are not mature enough to self regulate their use and no where near mature enough to handle some of the things they will doubtlessly come across on the Internet when left unsupervised.

If kids are given portable devices, those same devices can be locked against any potential harm. But only if parents completely understand the tech and dangers. Many haven't a bloody clue.

Sardonicat · 07-04-2018 09:11PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

If kids are given portable devices, those same devices can be locked against any potential harm. But only if parents completely understand the tech and dangers. Many haven't a bloody clue.

Oh I know that. But as you say, many parents don't have a clue and don't give enough of a **** to learn. Let them stare at a screen all day and all new night.

I guess the parents who are responsible enough to child proof devices would also be the ones who limit screen time and keep access priviledge based. I haven't seen too much of that in all truth.

iamwhoiam · 07-04-2018 09:33PM

Sardonicat wrote: »

Oh I know that. But as you say, many parents don't have a clue and don't give enough of a **** to learn. Let them stare at a screen all day and all new night.

I guess the parents who are responsible enough to child proof devices would also be the ones who limit screen time and keep access priviledge based. I haven't seen too much of that in all truth.

I wouldn't have a clue how to block sites or child proof my i pad . But I will be educating myself or find someone who knows exactly how to before my grandchildren are at an age where they might use it . No one can hide behind not having a clue but unfortunately they do and it makes me sad for children

Grandeeod · 07-04-2018 09:48PM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I wouldn't have a clue how to block sites or child proof my i pad . But I will be educating myself or find someone who knows exactly how to before my grandchildren are at an age where they might use it . No one can hide behind not having a clue but unfortunately they do and it makes me sad for children

I applaud your attitude. I agree that no one can hide behind not having a clue and you are right but they do. This is the bit that annoys the bloody face off me. Time and time again I meet parents the same age as me and younger. So many of them have no idea how the internet works, while allowing their kids full access to it all. Its feckin crazy!The same parents are using facebook to project an image and their kids are looking at it. How can we expect to protect kids from early sexualisation with all this **** goin on.

07-04-2018 09:57PM

We're blaming media and porn again?

Jesus, people just love to feel like they're in control, and that comes with stuff like "I'll ban sites online." or "My kid won't be allowed use a phone."

I was **** when I was 10. I was raised to respect woman and see them as no different to myself. Start with teaching your kids right from wrong and stop pretending 11-year-olds only started getting horny in 2018.

Excuses for bad parenting absolutely everywhere.

iamwhoiam · 07-04-2018 10:01PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

I applaud your attitude. I agree that no one can hide behind not having a clue and you are right but they do. This is the bit that annoys the bloody face off me. Time and time again I meet parents the same age as me and younger. So many of them have no idea how the internet works, while allowing their kids full access to it all. Its feckin crazy!The same parents are using facebook to project an image and their kids are looking at it. How can we expect to protect kids from early sexualisation with all this **** goin on.

Thats so sad to read . Poor parenting is so damaging in so many ways . Maybe more parenting classes offered to parents or I would go so far as making them compulsary at certain stages of the kids lives . Maybe a compulsary parenting class when a free pre school place is offered to the 3 year olds
Then another when the child reaches 10 and just before entering secondary school
I guess though as you say the parents who would attend without whinging are those who will be already on the ball

Grandeeod · 07-04-2018 10:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

We're blaming media and porn again?

Jesus, people just love to feel like they're in control, and that comes with stuff like "I'll ban sites online." or "My kid won't be allowed use a phone."

I was **** when I was 10. I was raised to respect woman and see them as no different to myself. Start with teaching your kids right from wrong and stop pretending 11-year-olds only started getting horny in 2018.

Excuses for bad parenting absolutely everywhere.

Teaching right from wrong to kids includes teaching them about the media and porn while exercising good parenting. What's your point?

iamwhoiam · 07-04-2018 10:05PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We're blaming media and porn again?

Jesus, people just love to feel like they're in control, and that comes with stuff like "I'll ban sites online." or "My kid won't be allowed use a phone."

I was **** when I was 10. I was raised to respect woman and see them as no different to myself. Start with teaching your kids right from wrong and stop pretending 11-year-olds only started getting horny in 2018.

Excuses for bad parenting absolutely everywhere.

Well no one said " banning internet " access was the only way to deal with it
While I would control access I most certainly would also be teaching right from wrong . Why would you think that people controlling internet access are not also teaching children how to behave and respect and be kind etc ?

zoe 3619 · 07-04-2018 10:30PM

Early sexualisation/activity is of course a problem.
It's not the same as rape though.Most people,whatever their age,don't watch porn (of any genre),and think rape is ok.
An eleven year old is well old enough to know that.In the same way they might watch a cowboy movie but realise it's not ok to shoot people.
Speaking generally,of course,as I know nothing about this specific case.

Two Families in Turmoil.....

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