Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

BBDBB · 07-04-2018 12:31AM

Jackson made a step change up in his performance in the 12 months prior to this incident and its aftermath, he was in excellent form and made the heir to Sexton spot his own in my view.

He's still young enough (for a 10) to return and play some great rugby, continuing his development and improving his play. Though that gets less true as time marches on

RuMan · 07-04-2018 12:32AM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Sexton for Carberry. Sexton is 33 this summer and injury prone.

Also Jackson isn't in the same league, never was, as Sexton. Sexton 3 European Cups, steered Ireland to 2 Championships and a Grand Slam this year.

Jackson.. ERC final appearance in 2012. There are a few othalves who could easily reach his standard, like Ross Byrne. Jackson is no Campbell, O'Gara or Sexton. Barely functional international outhalf.

McPhillips has potential. You never win anything with kids.. Alan Hansen on Man U 1996 when they won the double with a very young team. If you're good enough you're old enough.

No offense mate but Jackson is by some distance the 2nd best OH in this country.
I'm not saying he's near Sexton but none of those people u mention are anywhere near Jackson.

Jackson looked seriously impressive away to SA and with Sexton injured a lot looked like he might challenge for his place.

Admitedly there's a question as whether he can get his form back but on purely rugby terms its not even a discussion. Jackson is our best alternative to Sexton.

BBDBB · 07-04-2018 12:33AM

Deleted User wrote: »

That's fair enough. We all have our limits depending on the issue at hand. And I don't judge others on their views; I just tend to state my own view. But that doesn't always happen on boards.ie - value judgments of other posters views tend to be commonplace which does annoy me.

someone like you would say that though!

see what I did there :pac::D

Mrsmum · 07-04-2018 12:33AM

BoatMad wrote: »

yes, because who am I to judge what a person does in private , I would more prefer to see the release of such information prosecuted then expect the perpetrator to apologise

take your argument further and you are close to thought crime

I don't agree with you at all. My 12 year old child's class, when being taught about internet safety & online bullying, were told don't send any text or photos you wouldn't want your granny to see. If 12 year old children can grasp that you have to be able to stand over what you send out because when it's out there you no longer own it, I would expect a fully grown man to understand it also.

NAGDEFI · 07-04-2018 12:33AM

RuMan wrote: »

Eh he played for Ireland against Japan in June 2017 mate.

So he did, stand corrected.

Stiil a year/year and a half out and no one can say for definite what the case will do to him..

To be honest i thought he was coming along nicely, say against NZ in the Aviva in November 2016. But i feel Ross Byrne and Carberry will be at that level shortly. I don't seriously rate him as an international outhalf. Purely rugby viewpoint.

FrancieBrady · 07-04-2018 12:38AM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

So he did, stand corrected.

Stiil a year/year and a half out and no one can say for definite what the case will do to him..

To be honest i thought he was coming along nicely, say against NZ in the Aviva in November 2016. But i feel Ross Byrne and Carberry will be at that level shortly. I don't seriously rate him as an international outhalf. Purely rugby viewpoint.

No reason why he couldn't have kept himself fit.

It's all down to his mental state which was clearly strong to have gotten him to the level he was at.

BBDBB · 07-04-2018 12:40AM

Mrsmum wrote: »

I don't agree with you at all. My 12 year old child's class, when being taught about internet safety & online bullying, were told don't send any text or photos you wouldn't want your granny to see. If 12 year old children can grasp that you have to be able to stand over what you send out because when it's out there you no longer own it, I would expect a fully grown man to understand it also.

Being able to understand something is not the same as being conscious of it at all times and in all circumstances. Thats a very high standard of behaviour to reach.

For example I was always taught "if you cant say something nice, say nothing"
Sadly I have to confess that I have on occasion said things that dont follow that very simple rule. I dont think Im alone in that regard, I would be astonished and cynical if anyone claimed they do live by that rule all the time.

My point is, the understanding of a standard of behaviour is rarely the problem, living by it is the challenge regardless of age

FrancieBrady · 07-04-2018 12:40AM

Mrsmum wrote: »

I don't agree with you at all. My 12 year old child's class, when being taught about internet safety & online bullying, were told don't send any text or photos you wouldn't want your granny to see. If 12 year old children can grasp that you have to be able to stand over what you send out because when it's out there you no longer own it, I would expect a fully grown man to understand it also.

12 years and beyond are not sending stuff out on the internet that they wouldn't want their grannies to see? Are you serious?

These things don't matter to most until an event like this happens to them.

What we are all posting here about our opinions etc, could all come back to haunt us given the right circumstances.

RuMan · 07-04-2018 12:42AM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

So he did, stand corrected.

Stiil a year/year and a half out and no one can say for definite what the case will do to him..

To be honest i thought he was coming along nicely, say against NZ in the Aviva in November 2016. But i feel Ross Byrne and Carberry will be at that level shortly. I don't seriously rate him as an international outhalf. Purely rugby viewpoint.

Well this man does

https://www.independent.ie/sport/joe-schmidt-praises-paddy-jackson-after-irelands-big-win-in-rome-35442828.html

NAGDEFI · 07-04-2018 12:43AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No reason why he couldn't have kept himself fit.

It's all down to his mental state which was clearly strong to have gotten him to the level he was at.

There's a huge difference between keeping yourself fit. And game fit in any code. A lad can be clocking away in the gym but when you meet match pace at eyeballs out catching your breath it's different.

Now as RUMan points out he played last June. So if he was very lucky and got on the summer tour it would only be a year. Like an injury. Depends on the player. Lads like Sean O'Brien comeback at full pelt. Jackson has never really had a year out with injury, so it's hard to know whether he can hit the ground running.

Though yeah, overall, his mental state. He seemed well able to speak to the media last weak. I'd say he's tough enough mentally. Olding seemed a little less so. Again just my personal opinion.

FrancieBrady · 07-04-2018 12:46AM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

There's a huge difference between keeping yourself fit. And game fit in any code. A lad can be clocking away in the gym but when you meet match pace at eyeballs out catching your breath it's different.

Now as RUMan points out he played last June. So if he was very lucky and got on the summer tour it would only be a year. Like an injury. Depends on the player. Lads like Sean O'Brien comeback at full pelt. Jackson has never really had a year out with injury, so it's hard to know whether he can hit the ground running.

Though yeah, overall, his mental state. He seemed well able to speak to the media last weak. I'd say he's tough enough mentally. Olding seemed a little less so. Again just my personal opinion.

He was still under contract so may have been training with Ulster, he is their investment after all.

A coupe of games will see him match fit. I can't see a problem there.

mfceiling · 07-04-2018 12:46AM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

I don't seriously rate him as an international outhalf. Purely rugby viewpoint.

Yeah. Joe Schmidt obviously did/does. You have heard of him?

NAGDEFI · 07-04-2018 12:47AM

RuMan wrote: »

Well this man does

https://www.independent.ie/sport/joe-schmidt-praises-paddy-jackson-after-irelands-big-win-in-rome-35442828.html

Who wouldn't build up the reserve outhalf's confidence;)

No i was very comfortable with him when he came on for Sexton in later times. Just think he hasn't the extra little special bit. But that's hard judgement, not many do, bar Owen Farrell, Barrett, Sexton maybe. Certainly as good as Trinh Duc or Finn Russell (up and down) maybe a bit below Biggar, but Jackson's younger.

NAGDEFI · 07-04-2018 12:48AM

mfceiling wrote: »

Yeah. Joe Schmidt obviously did/does. You have heard of him?

No need for that tone. 'Mfceiling'

What a manager says about a player can be said for various reasons.

FrancieBrady · 07-04-2018 12:50AM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Who wouldn't build up the reserve outhalf's confidence;)

No i was very comfortable with him when he came on for Sexton in later times. Just think he hasn't the extra little special bit. But that's hard judgement, not many do, bar Owen Farrell, Barrett, Sexton maybe. Certainly as good as Trinh Duc or Finn Russell (up and down) maybe a bit below Biggar, but Jackson's younger.

Are you trying to convince yourself or us?

RuMan · 07-04-2018 12:55AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

He was still under contract so may have been training with Ulster, he is their investment after all.

A coupe of games will see him match fit. I can't see a problem there.

Players come back from injury all the time absolutely no reason he cant return.
Sense is he has more support at Ulster so fully expect to return there after today.
Assuming Ulster actually get into the champions cup and he's playing then he'll be a shoe in for the irish squad.

NAGDEFI · 07-04-2018 12:55AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you trying to convince yourself or us?

Of what?:D

I've been following rugby since 1981. Jackson's ok.

Lads like 'McFeckling' think rugby began with Joe Schmidt. He'll be gone post 2019 and Irish rugby will have to move on.

The best coach we ever had but Eddie O'Sullivan won 3 triple crowns and was a bounce away from a grand slam, Declan Kidney won a grand slam. The show will go on. You have to be preparing men to coach after Schmidt, be it Cullen, ROG etc.

RabbleRouser2k · 07-04-2018 12:55AM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Who wouldn't build up the reserve outhalf's confidence;)

No i was very comfortable with him when he came on for Sexton in later times. Just think he hasn't the extra little special bit. But that's hard judgement, not many do, bar Owen Farrell, Barrett, Sexton maybe. Certainly as good as Trinh Duc or Finn Russell (up and down) maybe a bit below Biggar, but Jackson's younger.

And he hasn't played in a year. One could also argue that his team mates may not wish to play alongside him-there is a 'gelling' that happens in teams and training. After the Grand Slam, it will be very difficult to justify a place on the team-a well oiled machine and all that.

Couple that with a whole load of protests at every game-and that will have an impact on the squad.
Olding has an even lesser chance of returning. Was only starting out, tbh.

NAGDEFI · 07-04-2018 12:59AM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

And he hasn't played in a year. One could also argue that his team mates may not wish to play alongside him-there is a 'gelling' that happens in teams and training. After the Grand Slam, it will be very difficult to justify a place on the team-a well oiled machine and all that.

Couple that with a whole load of protests at every game-and that will have an impact on the squad.
Olding has an even lesser chance of returning. Was only starting out, tbh.

Exactly. All the variables.

We all know there's a lot of people in important positions who won't be keen on the Jackson return. Regardless of what your opinion is on him returning not recognising this sentiment is just empty bluster.

FrancieBrady · 07-04-2018 01:01AM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Of what?:D

I've been following rugby since 1981. Jackson's ok.

Lads like 'McFeckling' think rugby began with Joe Schmidt. He'll be gone post 2019 and Irish rugby will have to move on.

The best coach we ever had but Eddie O'Sullivan won 3 triple crowns and was a bounce away from a grand slam, Declan Kidney won a grand slam. The show will go on. You have to be preparing men to coach after Schmidt, be it Cullen, ROG etc.

If you had been watching, we had the same debate about O'Gara/Sexton - who is better etc.

Sexton blossomed out of O'Gara's shadow. That is how it is, master and apprentice. Jackson was beginning to mature into a class act too.

BBDBB · 07-04-2018 01:02AM

The sentiment exists, its not the only sentiment involved and sometimes they are contrary

the question is, how much heed is paid to them when making the decision and how much of that is disclosed to the likes of us and how do we react when we hear the decision

hmm, sounds like the decision made by Jury in that recent trial in Belfast

night all

joe40 · 07-04-2018 01:03AM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Let's imagine a tape became public of Mary Loo McDonald secretly laughing at northern people. saying ye were all thick as planks (insert as many ugly insults as you like)and that she has ye by the short & curlies, would that be ok because it was a private laugh she was having ?

Of course it would rightly be a scandal.
It is non senscical to assume that if a damaging/ incriminating private conversation becomes public, the fact it was originally private is relevant.
Nixon was impeached on private coonversations, there was a scandal recently with councillors in relation to bribes for planning where private conversation were made public.
If I have a private discussion slagging off my boss or colleague and it gets out. How far wil the "private conversation excuse" get me.

mfceiling · 07-04-2018 01:04AM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Of what?:D

I've been following rugby since 1981. Jackson's ok.

Lads like 'McFeckling' think rugby began with Joe Schmidt. He'll be gone post 2019 and Irish rugby will have to move on.

Started playing in 1986....so I remember the bad old days much the same as yourself.
Jackson is more than "ok".

If (and it's looking likely) that he has to move abroad it will be interesting to see which teams find him "ok".

RuMan · 07-04-2018 01:05AM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Of what?:D

I've been following rugby since 1981. Jackson's ok.

Lads like 'McFeckling' think rugby began with Joe Schmidt. He'll be gone post 2019 and Irish rugby will have to move on.

The best coach we ever had but Eddie O'Sullivan won 3 triple crowns and was a bounce away from a grand slam, Declan Kidney won a grand slam. The show will go on. You have to be preparing men to coach after Schmidt, be it Cullen, ROG etc.

Look mate, enjoyed the banter and all that but stop pretending you have a clue about rugby when u havent a notion!!!

Today has changed things ,people are moving on. Mood in Ulster is different to here and now have no doubt he'll return for Ulster.

After that who knows.

jm08 · 07-04-2018 01:06AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Look at Iris and Peter Robinson as a prime example of public figures being allowed to sort things out and resume a public life.

I like the 'Loo' reference, typo or demeaning nickname?

It finished Iris's political career.

mfceiling · 07-04-2018 01:07AM

NAGDEFI wrote: »

Who wouldn't build up the reserve outhalf's confidence;)

No i was very comfortable with him when he came on for Sexton in later times. Just think he hasn't the extra little special bit. But that's hard judgement, not many do, bar Owen Farrell, Barrett, Sexton maybe. Certainly as good as Trinh Duc or Finn Russell (up and down) maybe a bit below Biggar, but Jackson's younger.

Owen Farrell? The guy who can't nail down 10 for England? Trinh Duc can be brilliant but is prone to some absolute rubbish...and Sexton "maybe"? And Biggar?
I'll leave you at it.

NAGDEFI · 07-04-2018 01:07AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you had been watching, we had the same debate about O'Gara/Sexton - who is better etc.

Sexton blossomed out of O'Gara's shadow. That is how it is, master and apprentice. Jackson was beginning to mature into a class act too.

I don't see it Francie.

Sexton had attitude from day 1 (semi final in the Aviva 2009 with O'Gara) he's a winner with an animal winning mentality. He has more pace than Jackson, more drive. Jackson is playing with, very harsh, but a team of perennial losers since 1999. Sexton was the driving force behind wins like the 2011 ERC Final over Northampton.

BoatMad · 07-04-2018 01:07AM

joe40 wrote: »

Of course it would rightly be a scandal.
It is non senscical to assume that if a damaging/ incriminating private conversation becomes public, the fact it was originally private is relevant.
Nixon was impeached on private coonversations, there was a scandal recently with councillors in relation to bribes for planning where private conversation were made public.
If I have a private discussion slagging off my boss or colleague and it gets out. How far wil the "private conversation excuse" get me.

the argument is ( well by me anyway ) is its a form of hypocrisy , we punish in public what we tolerate in private tyoe of thing

I am arguing thats wrong, we either tolerate in both modes or we punish it in both

NAGDEFI · 07-04-2018 01:12AM

mfceiling wrote: »

Owen Farrell? The guy who can't nail down 10 for England? Trinh Duc can be brilliant but is prone to some absolute rubbish...and Sexton "maybe"? And Biggar?
I'll leave you at it.

Owen Farrell had a poor six nations but suffers from the desire to play Ford at 10. Wasn't bad on the Lions was he?

Jackson isn't Sexton, Barrett or Farrell.

You can condescend all you like with your Joe Schmidt quotes and quips but they only serve to show you up for a lack of nuanced debating skill and class. If you're so sure of your superior knowledge why can't you behave like most posters here with a bit of decorum and state your point.

'I'll leave you at it'... the legend in his own head has left the building.

NAGDEFI · 07-04-2018 01:18AM

mfceiling wrote: »

Started playing in 1986....so I remember the bad old days much the same as yourself.
Jackson is more than "ok".

If (and it's looking likely) that he has to move abroad it will be interesting to see which teams find him "ok".

An ok international can be a very good club player, so he'll be in demand. I'm not talking about club.

Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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