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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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  • #7532
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    What I found most interesting in those messages, was what wasn't said in them.

    The first thing a bunch of horny lads, who DIDN'T get laid because of a lack of condoms, would mention was the lack of condoms in the house you'd imagine!

    And the fact that the woman wasn't even referenced in any way, like, she wasn't even described as "fit as f##k" or "a stunner" "was wrecked" or anything....it was like she wasn't even there.

    That is, in any of the messages that we are aware of!

    The text messages from the guys were entered into evidence by the prosecution though and so they were only likely to include the ones which fitted their narrative, naturally. Same way when the defence spoke of text messages they were ones which only fitted theirs. For example the defense spoke about the girls friend texting the compainant two weeks before a trial saying that if she was ever raped by someone famous that she'd black mail whoever did it. I believe the friend testified that she was just joking around.


  • #7533
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    The text messages from the guys were entered into evidence by the prosecution though and so they were only likely to include the ones which fitted their narrative, naturally. Same way when the defence spoke of text messages they were ones which only fitted theirs. For example the defense spoke about the girls friend texting the compainant two weeks before a trial saying that if she was ever raped by someone famous that she'd black mail whoever did it. I believe the friend testified that she was just joking around.

    Ya, that would explain it alright!


  • #7534
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,929 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Faugheen wrote: »
    By your logic the jury decided they didn't even do anything (even digital or oral) to her and that nothing happened.

    By your logic the jury decided that she wasn't even at the house.

    The jury found them not guilty of rape.

    That does not mean they didn't leave her bleeding (Jackson admitted having blood on his fingers) or in hysterics (as said by Rory Harrison).

    Use your brain, mate, and stop making a fool of yourself.

    What?

    The bleeding and hysterics were not of any relevance to the jury...clearly in a rape and sexual assault case.

    Why are the relevant to you? What is their importance?

    No guessing please. Keep to what we actually know about the case please.


  • #7535
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    wexie wrote: »
    <trigger alert>

    For consensual sex? I'd imagine they generally don't need to look any further than the nearest VIP section of the nearest nightclub

    *EDIT* I'm not implying that this particular case involved consensual or non consensual sex so stop your moaning.
    Just implying that (semi) famous sports stars/movie stars/ rock stars /reality stars don't have to have long periods of 'drought' if they don't choose to
    (I edited it very quickly to make it clear I wasnt trying to offend, its difficult to discuss this without someone being offended)

    As a guy I wonder how easy it would be for me to walk into a VIP section. I made a post that got no replies asking why women go into the VIP section if they arent VIP/celebrities, they just need to be attractive to gain entry, maybe someone disagrees with this?


  • #7536
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,929 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    tretorn wrote: »
    There was no evidence they were rough at all, if there was the prosecuting counsel would have referred to it and he didnt.

    The staff in the sexual assault unit saw no evidence of anything being non consensual. The woman said PJ forced his whole hand inside her and you would expect to see bruising and there wasnt any.

    Maybe the jury should have sat and had a few cups of coffee rather than arriving back with such a quick a verdict, they sat and deliberated for less than two hours on the final day which was astonishing after a nine week trial, you would think it would take days to go through the evidence but a decision was made to acquit not one but four defendents in less than four hours in total. This reflects very badly on the accuser because it looks like the jurors made their minds up long before the trial was over.

    This alone sends a very serious message to the CPS about the taking of this case, how much would the proscecution costs alone be, the senior counsel employed by the State is London based so his fees would be astronomical.

    The only winners in the whole sorry mess as always are the lawyers/

    Can a defendant counter sue after a not guilty verdict in the British system?

    Not that I am suggesting they would, but is it possible?


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  • #7537
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Faugheen wrote: »
    By your logic the jury decided they didn't even do anything (even digital or oral) to her and that nothing happened.

    By your logic the jury decided that she wasn't even at the house.

    The jury found them not guilty of rape.

    That does not mean they didn't leave her bleeding (Jackson admitted having blood on his fingers) or in hysterics (as said by Rory Harrison).

    Use your brain, mate, and stop making a fool of yourself.

    What?

    The bleeding and hysterics were not of any relevance to the jury...clearly in a rape and sexual assault case.

    Why are the relevant to you? What is their importance?

    No guessing please. Keep to what we actually know about the case please.

    You actually don't realise that you chat absolute brown, do you?

    I brought up the bleeding and hysterics because when the IRFU conduct their review, they COULD (emphasis on could) use the fact that a woman left their company bleeding and in hysterics as a matter of concern. I'm not saying that they raped her, I am not saying this was intentional, but it happened. This was determined in the trial. There is nothing in the verdict that says this didn't happen. It did.

    It's not just about the WhatsApp messages here.


  • #7538
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    tretorn wrote: »
    There was no evidence they were rough at all, if there was the prosecuting counsel would have referred to it and he didnt.

    The staff in the sexual assault unit saw no evidence of anything being non consensual. The woman said PJ forced his whole hand inside her and you would expect to see bruising and there wasnt any.

    Maybe the jury should have sat and had a few cups of coffee rather than arriving back with such a quick a verdict, they sat and deliberated for less than two hours on the final day which was astonishing after a nine week trial, you would think it would take days to go through the evidence but a decision was made to acquit not one but four defendents in less than four hours in total. This reflects very badly on the accuser because it looks like the jurors made their minds up long before the trial was over.

    This alone sends a very serious message to the CPS about the taking of this case, how much would the proscecution costs alone be, the senior counsel employed by the State is London based so his fees would be astronomical.

    The only winners in the whole sorry mess as always are the lawyers/

    Can a defendant counter sue after a not guilty verdict in the British system?

    Not that I am suggesting they would, but is it possible?

    Counter sue for what? She wasn't found guilty of anything either.


  • #7539
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    I dont know.

    From my reading the evidence it seems to be that three men got oral sex from one woman and one man fingered her because he couldnt get an erection. He may have inflicted a 1cm tear with his fingernail but everything that happened was consensual.

    There were tears with witnesses who could verify tears afterwards but no tears noticed by the three men who got blowjobs, far from regretting anything they went on whatsapp to boast about the great evening they had, not that they could remember too much of it anyway.

    Who would you sue though, the person who accused you or the CPS for taking a case that a jury threw out within a couple of hours.

    Can any of the men even get their costs back.


  • #7540
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    As a guy I wonder how easy it would be for me to walk into a VIP section.

    be dead easy if either :

    - you're a VIP of some sort

    or

    - you're a good looking young man and the VIP section is filled with (single) female VIP's* or **gay male VIPs

    Beyond either one of those....I dunno, how's about you head down to some nightclub in Dublin this weekend (where has a VIP section?) and report to us afterwards. I'm guessing though unless you're willing to spend large amounts of cash your chances aren't great.


    *Allegedly that's how Dolph Lundgren was discovered by Grace Jones, she spotted him at an afterparty and asked : and what's this? Desert?

    ** edited before someone comes in to accuse me of not being inclusive enough:rolleyes::rolleyes:


  • #7541
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,929 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Faugheen wrote: »
    You actually don't realise that you chat absolute brown, do you?

    I brought up the bleeding and hysterics because when the IRFU conduct their review, they COULD (emphasis on could) use the fact that a woman left their company bleeding and in hysterics as a matter of concern. I'm not saying that they raped her, I am not saying this was intentional, but it happened. This was determined in the trial. There is nothing in the verdict that says this didn't happen. It did.

    It's not just about the WhatsApp messages here.

    Not sure what the petulant aggression is about. I will leave you to it.

    Not much mention of the IRFU conducting a review here. You clearly say that
    Because he and his teammate left a woman bloodied and hysterical

    That we know for a fact.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106610926&postcount=6399


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  • #7542
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,929 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    tretorn wrote: »
    I dont know.

    From my reading the evidence it seems to be that three men got oral sex from one woman and one man fingered her because he couldnt get an erection. He may have inflicted a 1cm tear with his fingernail but everything that happened was consensual.

    There were tears with witnesses who could verify tears afterwards but no tears noticed by the three men who got blowjobs, far from regretting anything they went on whatsapp to boast about the great evening they had, not that they could remember too much of it anyway.

    Who would you sue though, the person who accused you or the CPS for taking a case that a jury threw out within a couple of hours.

    Can any of the men even get their costs back.

    Just wondering was it possible, that's all.

    Career damaged and big costs, seems a high price to pay for somebody if they are innocent.


  • #7543
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Dick phelan wrote: »
    There seems to be a lack of basic respect in our society creeping in. I think it comes down to the very individualistic culture we have now, all about satisfying ourselves and others be damned.

    Perhaps if we all just treated each other and ourselves with more respects unfortunate situations like this wouldn't happen.

    A rather wise post in a morass of indignation, righteous (some selfrighteous) and chagrin, edited to highlight the bit id thank twice if i could.
    We're losing our reason, our humanity and our compassion for others. A good place to start would be regaining it.


  • #7544
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    tretorn wrote:
    From my reading the evidence it seems to be that three men got oral sex from one woman and one man fingered her because he couldnt get an erection. He may have inflicted a 1cm tear with his fingernail but everything that happened was consensual.


    You must be reading the evidence from a different trial. Are you sure you're on the right thread?


  • #7545
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    (I edited it very quickly to make it clear I wasnt trying to offend, its difficult to discuss this without someone being offended)

    As a guy I wonder how easy it would be for me to walk into a VIP section. I made a post that got no replies asking why women go into the VIP section if they arent VIP/celebrities, they just need to be attractive to gain entry, maybe someone disagrees with this?

    I played rugby years ago (not quiet at VIP in nightclubs level), but there was never a shortage of girls. If you wanted, they were there. Particularly for away games.
    (Failed to exploit the situation as a girlfriend established herself).

    Go to any Heineken cup/interpro/pro12, theres a coterie of "rugger huggers" flocking around players.

    Its evident too in rural areas with the GAA, lets not cod ourselves


  • #7546
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,929 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    lets not cod ourselves

    Big problem with this whole debate is that a lot of people are 'codding themselves' about real life in order to stick to dogmas.


  • #7547
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    No, its the right thread.

    It appears to me that three men got blowjobs and not much else happened.

    Only Oldings semen was found because he removed his penis before he ejaculated and his semen was all over his chest, he left to clean himself and some of the semen transferred onto the woman who aleged rape. No other semen was found on her though both external and internal swabs were taken.

    She had no bruises or marks apart from a !cm tear which could have been caused by a nail.

    One of the defendents counsel suggested she was bleeding before she went to the bedroom, was it ever clarified for sure whether she was menstruating or not.

    If I was on that jury this is the conclusion I would have come to.

    I havent heard any other factual evidence that would convince me otherwise.


  • #7548
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,705 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    I see this bleeding being brought up all the time, it jars with me that it is used for dramatic effect, when the girl herself in texts to her friend said that it was her period, brought on a week early because of rough sex.

    I think menstrual bleed is different than a serious tear bleed.

    the text in question is in this article
    https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/rugby-union/rugby-rape-trial-paddy-jackson-12027425


  • #7549
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    Mountainsandh wrote: »
    I see this bleeding being brought up all the time, it jars with me that it is used for dramatic effect, when the girl herself in texts to her friend said that it was her period, brought on a week early because of rough sex.

    I think menstrual bleed is different than a serious tear bleed.

    the text in question is in this article
    https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/rugby-union/rugby-rape-trial-paddy-jackson-12027425

    thats a very odd conversation to have by text. if someone text me any of that i would ring back imedietly


  • #7550
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Mountainsandh wrote: »
    I see this bleeding being brought up all the time, it jars with me that it is used for dramatic effect, when the girl herself in texts to her friend said that it was her period, brought on a week early because of rough sex.

    I think menstrual bleed is different than a serious tear bleed.

    the text in question is in this article
    https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/rugby-union/rugby-rape-trial-paddy-jackson-12027425

    She didn't know herself.

    It was during the medical examination that it was discovered to be from a 1cm tear and not menstrual.


  • #7551
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    tretorn wrote:
    It appears to me that three men got blowjobs and not much else happened.


    I suggest you read the evidence again.For starters one of the accused was up for perverting the course of justice. The other one for exposure.


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  • #7552
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    Theres an awful lot of stuff being used for dramatic effect but yet the only basis for it seems to be the complainants evidence.

    People are reporting as fact that she was attacked when she went back for her bag but this is based on her testimony only, Jackson denies this version completely, he stated he had consensual oral sex and he fingered her, he denied vehemently that he put his whole fist inside her. As far as I know he stuck to this statement from the moment he was questioned.

    The jury went to Jacksons house and they spent two hours there going from room to room, they went becasue the defence counsel requested that they go. The request presumably was to show how unrealistic it was that a gang rape would take place within feet of potential witnesses.

    This would be my take anyway if I was on that jury, other people are free to state what their verdict would have been.

    There were two versions of Mcilroy arriving in the room, in one he was stark naked and in the other he was dressed, he stated he removed his trousers and received a consensual blowjob. He was acquitted of all charges.

    There is zilch to be said about Harrison, even the woman said he was a perfect gentleman, he was acquited too.


  • #7553
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Dara Florence victim of vile abuse from the Twitter mob according to the Belfast Telegraph.
    Disgusting


  • #7554
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    RuMan wrote:
    Dara Florence victim of vile abuse from the Twitter mob according to the Belfast Telegraph. Disgusting


    Yeah because she gave truthful testimony to what she saw not what the mob wanted to hear.


  • #7555
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    The woman told her friend by text that she had bruises on her inner thighs and her vagina felt very bruised and swollen.

    She was at the sexual assault clinic shortly afterwards and no bruising was noted and nor was there any sign of non consensual sex.

    The jury unlike the twitter mob didnt take the womans evidence as fact, they heard her evidence and then looked at the forensic report and things didnt add up.


  • #7556
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,705 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    She didn't know herself.

    It was during the medical examination that it was discovered to be from a 1cm tear and not menstrual.

    Ok. I think there was still a question mark over whether the blood was menstrual or from the wound, and over the wound itself, since a second forensic doc testified that she only saw blood, and was not able to see the wound itself (in the video of examination provided).
    As stated in this article :
    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/jackson-and-olding-rape-trial-alleged-victims-blood-found-on-duvet-from-jacksons-bedroom-36627996.html


  • #7557
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Yeah because she gave truthful testimony to what she saw not what the mob wanted to hear.

    Any tweet from Aodhan about it ?


  • #7558
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    The second forensic expert who gave evidence for Jackson said she thought the blood was menstrual.

    She said if a patient of hers bled for fourteen hours from a 1cm tear she would be telling him or her to go to A and E.

    Did Jackson have to pay for this expert advice too.

    I think Oldings money ran out and he qualified for free legal aid but Jacksons defence cost thousands and thousands.

    If he cant get back playing rugby again how is he going to pay these costs.


  • #7559
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,509 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    RuMan wrote: »
    Dara Florence victim of vile abuse from the Twitter mob according to the Belfast Telegraph.
    Disgusting

    That's definitely totally wrong and inappropriate. She testified honestly on the stand and has done nothing to invite any criticism.


  • #7560
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    RuMan wrote:
    Any tweet from Aodhan about it ?


    I think he may have learnt to stay away from Twitter for a while.


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  • #7561
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    The mob are being whipped to hysteria by talk of battered brutalised bloodstained victim.

    If they were capable of reading they would read the fact based forensic reports.

    The mob got ten minutes of I believe her crap from twitter and they howled about the jury getting everything wrong.

    Dara Florence will be in their sights after they get every member of the whatsapp group barred from ever playing rugby again.


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