Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

Synode · 04-04-2018 05:08PM

Who cares who they (hypothetically) do it with. It would be nobody's business

prawnsambo · 04-04-2018 05:08PM

mfceiling wrote: »

So basically as a professional rugby player you are not allowed to engage in any sexual behaviour outside of what is deemed "normal"? Even if you and your partner are consenting adults.
Seems a bit odd.

If Best's wife asked him to consider a threesome does he refuse on the point of "can't love...I'm a professional rugby player and even though this is going to happen in a consensual manner I have to be careful in case anyone ever found out"

What's next?

Ian Henderson in shock scandal - the bus driver told him to stand behind the line but one of his feet were past it.

Chris Henry caught walking on grass even though the sign said "keep off the grass"

Paul Marshall pays £1.50 for bus journey even though the fare is now £1.55.

Surely an adult is allowed to make his own decisions (provided they are legal) within the confines of his own home?

This reductio ad absurdum is complete nonsense. Seriously, if you have a point to make, you've lost it with this stuff.

As far as I'm concerned, the behaviour as portrayed in their own evidence is far below the standards I'd like my children to exhibit. And their attitude towards women is way, way below that.

Synode · 04-04-2018 05:10PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

This reductio ad absurdum is complete nonsense. Seriously, if you have a point to make, you've lost it with this stuff.

As far as I'm concerned, the behaviour as portrayed in their own evidence is far below the standards I'd like my children to exhibit. And their attitude towards women is way, way below that.

Good for you. But what if your kids did exhibit this behaviour? Would you hang them out to dry?

prawnsambo · 04-04-2018 05:11PM

Synode wrote: »

Good for you. But what if your kids did exhibit this behaviour? Would you hang them out to dry?

What do you mean by 'hang them out to dry'?

jm08 · 04-04-2018 05:14PM

Deleted User wrote: »

This is an interesting comment when you take into account that most sexual assaults are committed by people who know each other.

For a high profile sports person who wanted to engage in such sexual activitity, it would still be better to do so with people he knows and trusts than with random people they might pick up in a nightclub.

04-04-2018 05:17PM

jm08 wrote: »

For a high profile sports person who wanted to engage in such sexual activitity, it would still be better to do so with people he knows and trusts than with random people they might pick up in a nightclub.

Why?

jm08 · 04-04-2018 05:23PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why?

So that they don't end up in court like these lads did and to ensure their privacy. All well and good if they are happy the whole world knows about their sex lives mind. Not too sure too many sponsors would be keen on the lifestyle choices of the Irish captain though, so the IRFU might not be too happy either.

Synode · 04-04-2018 05:24PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

What do you mean by 'hang them out to dry'?

In Jackson Olding's case demand they never play for Ireland/Ulster again. So in your kids case disown them or something

stephen_n · 04-04-2018 05:34PM

I would think reading this thread, there is a huge amount of naivety about what happens most weekends in this country and also what happens in most all male whatsapp groups. The notion that rugby players should hold themselves to a higher standard is bizarre. Well certainly in a private scenario, whatever about their public facing persona or actions. Why should rugby players be better than mere mortals? I get that while in public, on social media or while representing their employers they should be. What was said in those message will be replicated this weekend, last weekend and every weekend since this happened by young lads all over this country. Either being "ladish" or with the intention of being funny. I'm not saying in any way that is right, but it is the reality of the society we live in. This debate seems to be missing the point and getting bogged down in a fight between reality and the notional idea of what society should be. These texts need to be viewed through the lens of reality, not a notional moral idea of a society that doesn't exist anymore. Looking at them in reality allows for a debate in how we change what is a societal problem. Pretending they are not like us and should be better makes them scapegoats.

Foxtrol · 04-04-2018 05:38PM

jm08 wrote: »

For a high profile sports person who wanted to engage in such sexual activitity, it would still be better to do so with people he knows and trusts than with random people they might pick up in a nightclub.

Like ones they meet in a Dublin chipper after a night out? Presume you see similar investigation/reprimand for the Munster 2?

04-04-2018 05:43PM

jm08 wrote: »

So that they don't end up in court like these lads did and to ensure their privacy. All well and good if they are happy the whole world knows about their sex lives mind. Not too sure too many sponsors would be keen on the lifestyle choices of the Irish captain though, so the IRFU might not be too happy either.

Don't know where to start here.

Having a one night stand does not carry an inherent risk of being accused of sexual assault.

If someone is outed after a sexual experience without their consent surely we should be outraged at the party who shared that information rather than blame the person who said nothing?

Since when did sponsors become the purity police? Am I the only one here who thinks there is nothing wrong with a threesome?

Again, if Rory Best was gay would a sponsor or the IRFU be justified in criticising his lifestyle choices?

If someone goes to the media to sell their story without the other persons permission, shouldn't the media really just tell them to f**k off rather than pay them for their story?

The only reason I would generally agree with your post is the health risks of being intimate with someone you don't know. That to me would be the absolute concern, the rest shouldn't come into it imo. It's no one's business at all, even if it's a business to sell those stories.

foxyladyxx · 04-04-2018 05:45PM

stephen_n wrote: »

I would think reading this thread, there is a huge amount of naivety about what happens most weekends in this country and also what happens in most all male whatsapp groups. The notion that rugby players should hold themselves to a higher standard is bizarre. Well certainly in a private scenario, whatever about their public facing persona or actions. Why should rugby players be better than mere mortals? I get that while in public, on social media or while representing their employers they should be. What was said in those message will be replicated this weekend, last weekend and every weekend since this happened by young lads all over this country. Either being "ladish" or with the intention of being funny. I'm not saying in any way that is right, but it is the reality of the society we live in. This debate seems to be missing the point and getting bogged down in a fight between reality and the notional idea of what society should be. These texts need to be viewed through the lens of reality, not a notional moral idea of a society that doesn't exist anymore. Looking at them in reality allows for a debate in how we change what is a societal problem. Pretending they are not like us and should be better makes them scapegoats.

It doesn't matter how you or I or any poster on this thread views the behaviour of Jackson, Olding and Gilroy. The fact remains that the IRFU and Ulster rugby rely heavily on their sponsors . Their is a danger that these sponsors will pull out if Olding or BJ were to return to play rugby on this Island.

It therefore behoves all rugby players playing for Province to comport themselves in a manner which does not bring their game into disrepute as their contracts stipulate.

mfceiling · 04-04-2018 05:46PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

This reductio ad absurdum is complete nonsense. Seriously, if you have a point to make, you've lost it with this stuff.

As far as I'm concerned, the behaviour as portrayed in their own evidence is far below the standards I'd like my children to exhibit. And their attitude towards women is way, way below that.

It might be below the standards you'd like your children to exhibit but if 3 adults consent to a particular act in the bedroom what business is it of yours? If you walked into a threesome at a party would you

(A) turn on your heel and walk out.
(B) stand there with your arms tutting loudly about how inappropriate this is.

Adults will engage in various different sexual acts. Whether you find them pleasurable or disgusting is entirely up to you, but surely "each to their own"

*by the way I've never had a threesome...never had the offer or the interest"

Foxtrol · 04-04-2018 05:46PM

jm08 wrote: »

She didn't actually. She said they acted in a 'slutter manner'. Thats different to calling them sluts. I don't think you could really discipline anyone for saying that.

McIlroy sent a text with a photo of 3 girls, calling them 'Belfast Sluts.'

Don't be ridiculous, there is no difference in using that term as an verb or a noun.

McIlroy is not employed by Ulster/IRFU so he has nothing to do with this. The fact you have have repeatedly brought others texts into it shows how weak your argument is. Are they supposed to now also be disciplined for what their friends?

irishbucsfan · 04-04-2018 05:47PM

foxyladyxx wrote: »

It doesn't matter what you or I or nay poster on this thread views the behaviour of Jackson, Olding and Gilroy. The fact remains that the IRFU and Ulster rugby rely heavily on their sponsors . Their is a danger that these sponsors will pull out if Olding or BJ were to return to play rugby on this Island.

It therefore behoves all rugby players playing for Province to comport themselves in a manner which does not bring their game into disrepute as their contracts stipulate.

prawnsambo · 04-04-2018 05:51PM

mfceiling wrote: »

It might be below the standards you'd like your children to exhibit but if 3 adults consent to a particular act in the bedroom what business is it of yours? If you walked into a threesome at a party would you

(A) turn on your heel and walk out.
(B) stand there with your arms tutting loudly about how inappropriate this is.

Adults will engage in various different sexual acts. Whether you find them pleasurable or disgusting is entirely up to you, but surely "each to their own"

*by the way I've never had a threesome...never had the offer or the interest"

You ignored the bit about their attitude to women.

Edit: And I'm out of this thread after seeing what was said above.

mfceiling · 04-04-2018 06:26PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

You ignored the bit about their attitude to women.

Edit: And I'm out of this thread after seeing what was said above.

OK....the tone and language used in the texts were nasty and disgusting.
What is their attitude to women? All women. Would they consider their mothers or aunts to be "sluts"?
Or was it "lad banter" (inappropriate language yes) said between friends and not a true reflection of their attitude or respect of all women.
I'm sure there's many a high profile irish sports person who has said far worse in a private whatsapp message.

jm08 · 04-04-2018 06:31PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Like ones they meet in a Dublin chipper after a night out? Presume you see similar investigation/reprimand for the Munster 2?

That proved to be a risky thing to do. All consensual and you are still talking about it. The two lads didn't open their mouths or indulge in crude texts that got into the public domain about them. Their so called friend filmed it and posted it on WhatsApp. It was circulated to the woman's brother. Thats how she found out about it. Her friend mistakenly told her friends about it.

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't know where to start here.

Having a one night stand does not carry an inherent risk of being accused of sexual assault.

If someone is outed after a sexual experience without their consent surely we should be outraged at the party who shared that information rather than blame the person who said nothing?

Since when did sponsors become the purity police? Am I the only one here who thinks there is nothing wrong with a threesome?

Sponsors like to have their brand reflect their declared values which are generally based on integrity and decency - i.e., the opposite of what those lads got up to. Rugby in particular likes to market itself as fully of respect for ref for example. Those texts displayed nothing but disrespect for women (who happen to be half the population and the mothers of those kids the IRFU want to attract into rugby).

Again, if Rory Best was gay would a sponsor or the IRFU be justified in criticising his lifestyle choices?

Being gay isn't a lifestyle choice.

If someone goes to the media to sell their story without the other persons permission, shouldn't the media really just tell them to f**k off rather than pay them for their story?

Who is selling stories?

The only reason I would generally agree with your post is the health risks of being intimate with someone you don't know. That to me would be the absolute concern, the rest shouldn't come into it imo. It's no one's business at all, even if it's a business to sell those stories.

I didn't mention one night stands (which are generally between two consulting adults - it gets a bit weird when the numbers involved adds up and they start sending videos of the action around on social media.

Foxtrol wrote: »

Don't be ridiculous, there is no difference in using that term as an verb or a noun.

There is a difference in calling a person a slut and doing something slutty which infers that it is out of character. A better example would be maybe 'drunken behavour' doesn't mean you are a drunk.

McIlroy is not employed by Ulster/IRFU so he has nothing to do with this. The fact you have have repeatedly brought others texts into it shows how weak your argument is. Are they supposed to now also be disciplined for what their friends?

McIlroy was a close friend of these guys. People are judged by the company they keep.

stephen_n · 04-04-2018 06:36PM

foxyladyxx wrote: »

It doesn't matter how you or I or any poster on this thread views the behaviour of Jackson, Olding and Gilroy. The fact remains that the IRFU and Ulster rugby rely heavily on their sponsors . Their is a danger that these sponsors will pull out if Olding or BJ were to return to play rugby on this Island.

It therefore behoves all rugby players playing for Province to comport themselves in a manner which does not bring their game into disrepute as their contracts stipulate.

In the end of the day, nothing that is posted here will affect the outcome there. I would be of the opinion that rightly or wrongly, they won't play for Ireland or probably Ulster again. But expecting people to behave in a private setting how they should in public is expecting an awful lot.

Synode · 04-04-2018 06:53PM

I'd be very, very surprised if they don't play for Ulster again. And if they're playing well enough, Ireland too.

04-04-2018 07:06PM

jm08 wrote: »

McIlroy was a close friend of these guys. People are judged by the company they keep.

Why don't you tell that to Graham Dwyer's wife. She was married to him so she should be judged on his actions right?

jm08 wrote: »

That proved to be a risky thing to do. All consensual and you are still talking about it. The two lads didn't open their mouths or indulge in crude texts that got into the public domain about them. Their so called friend filmed it and posted it on WhatsApp. It was circulated to the woman's brother. Thats how she found out about it. Her friend mistakenly told her friends about it.

So you don't have an issue with group sex then? The wrong here was the distribution of images without the knowledge or consent of participants. I agree with you, that is wrong.

But why then post this:

jm08 wrote: »

Sponsors like to have their brand reflect their declared values which are generally based on integrity and decency - i.e., the opposite of what those lads got up to. Rugby in particular likes to market itself as fully of respect for ref for example. Those texts displayed nothing but disrespect for women (who happen to be half the population and the mothers of those kids the IRFU want to attract into rugby).

Jackson and the Munster lads have a lot in common. Jackson didn't share images and didn't say much of anything in those whatsapp conversations.

So do you give him the same benefit of the doubt as you afford the Munster players in this regards? Again, it was their friends that did the acts you have an issue with?

jm08 wrote: »

McIlroy was a close friend of these guys. People are judged by the company they keep.

jm08 wrote: »

Their so called friend filmed it and posted it on WhatsApp

Oh, clearly not so.

jm08 wrote: »

Being gay isn't a lifestyle choice.

I agree, it's not. But a significant portion of society voted not to give gay people equal rights with straight couples. Should we ban gay married players from representing Ireland given how many have an issue with it? Why is this any different to people having an objection to group sex?

Teferi · 04-04-2018 07:39PM

Here lads, the absolute best take I've seen about the messages was from an Ulster supporter on Twitter who said the furore around them was a Fenian plot. I checked his account to see if he was joking and he was not. If you can't best that take then I think it is time to end the conversation.

04-04-2018 07:40PM

stephen_n wrote: »

I would think reading this thread, there is a huge amount of naivety about what happens most weekends in this country and also what happens in most all male whatsapp groups.

One hundred percent correct.

04-04-2018 08:16PM

As much as there is an interesting discussion to be had about sexuality and consent and privacy. I'm not exactly sure that the Ulster thread on the rugby forum is the best place to have it.

So if there are updates discuss away but only in the ways it effects Ulster

jm08 · 04-04-2018 08:32PM

connemara man wrote: »

As much as there is an interesting discussion to be had about sexuality and consent and privacy. I'm not exactly sure that the Ulster thread on the rugby forum is the best place to have it.

So if there are updates discuss away but only in the ways it effects Ulster

Should I delete my post. I didn't see yours until I had posted it.

04-04-2018 08:33PM

jm08 wrote: »

Should I delete my post. I didn't see yours until I had posted it.

Please do

bilston · 04-04-2018 08:43PM

Teferi wrote: »

Here lads, the absolute best take I've seen about the messages was from an Ulster supporter on Twitter who said the furore around them was a Fenian plot. I checked his account to see if he was joking and he was not. If you can't best that take then I think it is time to end the conversation.

To be fair I've seen tweets from people claiming they got off because they were Prods. It's bad from all sides!

Anyway, I kind of miss the time when we couldn't discuss this!

Dubinusa · 04-04-2018 09:12PM

With all this drama and turmoil its bound to affect the performance of the team. Absolutely dire. I couldn't imagine what it's like to be an Ulster player atm.

bilston · 04-04-2018 09:25PM

Dubinusa wrote: »

With all this drama and turmoil its bound to affect the performance of the team. Absolutely dire. I couldn't imagine what it's like to be an Ulster player atm.

You'd think there would have to be a bad atmosphere about the squad.

1) No idea what the future holds regarding the coach.

2) Poor results and likelihood of no Champions Cup rugby next season.

3) The Jackson/Olding/Gilroy situation

4) Total absence of leadership off the pitch

5) Glut of injuries.

It's an absolute clusterf**k. Compared to Leinster and Munster we are a total embarrassment. I'm actually a little ashamed to be an Ulster fan at the minute. I genuinely look forward to watching Leinster and Munster a hell of a lot more than Ulster at the minute.

And I'm the positive Ulster fan around here...

foxyladyxx · 04-04-2018 09:29PM

bilston wrote: »

You'd think there would have to be a bad atmosphere about the squad.

1) No idea what the future holds regarding the coach.

2) Poor results and likelihood of no Champions Cup rugby next season.

3) The Jackson/Olding/Gilroy situation

4) Total absence of leadership off the pitch

5) Glut of injuries.

It's an absolute clusterf**k. Compared to Leinster and Munster we are a total embarrassment. I'm actually a little ashamed to be an Ulster fan at the minute. I genuinely look forward to watching Leinster and Munster a hell of a lot more than Ulster at the minute.

And I'm the positive Ulster fan around here...

It can only get better. . I do remember the great days of Ulster rugby . They will come around again. .Meanwhile we will adopt you as a Leinster fan

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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