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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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Comments

  • #7052
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,085 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    So culture refers only to the "good" things in society...

    Right, I see where the problem is.


    Enter: 'Drink culture'.


  • #7053
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    So culture refers only to the "good" things in society...

    Right, I see where the problem is.

    Culture is passed on to person to person in that culture. Rape is not. Neither is murder. They are actions of people not a culture.


  • #7054
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    Culture is passed on to person to person in that culture. Rape is not. Neither is murder. They are actions of people not a culture.

    What about the well known "hook up culture"??


  • #7055
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    What about the well known "hook up culture"??

    Saying a word then putting culture next to it does not make it so.


  • #7056
    facehugger99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,878 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    Christ, this ‘culture’ sh;te is boring.


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  • #7057
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    There is a culture of violent feuds in Irish Traveller communities, that does not mean that all Travellers engage in violent feuds!
    There is a culture of crime in all societies, some have bigger problems than others, it is apart of life, why deny it?

    At what point, above which, the participation of the groups' members indicate that it is cultural, or part of their culture?
    Simple majority, 50.1 %?
    Significant minority, 25% +/_ 3%?

    If youre seriously trying to equate the prevalence of crime/violence within traveller culture, to a rape culture among Irish men, you should really consider a new thread. It could be gold!


  • #7058
    Ahhhh for forks sake!
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 143 ✭✭Ahhhh for forks sake!


    I knew these gentlemen would be found not guilty. I hope they can get their rugby careers back on track.


  • #7059
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,085 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    hill16bhoy wrote: »
    One of the definitions of culture in the Oxford dictionary is as follows:

    "The attitudes and behaviour characteristic of a particular social group.
    ‘the emerging drug culture’"

    The particular social group that engages in rape culture is young men, not exclusively, but usually.

    All of the following are attitudes and/or behaviour characteristics and all are elements of rape culture.

    A belief that if a woman doesn't fight or scream, it can't be rape.

    A belief that it's just fine to perform a sex act on a person who is asleep.

    A belief that a woman cannot withdraw consent at any point during sex.

    Deliberately and mendaciously twisting the verdict of a trial to make out that a jury has found a complainant's allegations of rape to be lies.

    Calling to vilify and publicly out a complainant in a rape trial.

    A belief that a woman desperately asking a man to "at least use a condom" constitutes consent.

    A belief that a woman entering a man's bedroom equals consent.

    A belief that "no" doesn't mean no.

    Using the utterly bogus argument of "personal responsibility" to mitigate the heinous crime of rape. There is no such a thing as the responsibility of a person to not be the victim of a crime, only the responsibility of a person to not commit a crime.

    A belief that women who wear certain clothes or get drunk are in any way at all responsible if they are raped.

    Being influenced by porn that explicitly degrades women.

    Referring to women as animals in language.

    Referring to sex as something a man does to a woman, and in violent terms.

    Calling women sluts, whores, brasses or other deliberately degrading terms.

    Denying that there is a problem with any of this.


    What doctor of philosophy or anthropologist attributed all the above as traits of rape culture?


  • #7060
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    Saying a word then putting culture next to it does not make it so.

    ....so there is no such thing as the hook up culture?


  • #7061
    tritium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭tritium


    hill16bhoy wrote: »
    Again, you demonstrate a very basic misunderstanding of what culture is.

    Only a tiny minority of people in Ireland play traditional music.

    According to your logic, there is no culture of playing traditional music in Ireland.

    So you still haven’t answered me

    By your standard is there a culture of misandry in Ireland?


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  • #7062
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    At what point, above which, the participation of the groups' members indicate that it is cultural, or part of their culture?
    Simple majority, 50.1 %?
    Significant minority, 25% +/_ 3%?

    If youre seriously trying to equate the prevalence of crime/violence within traveller culture, to a rape culture among Irish men, you should really consider a new thread. It could be gold!

    Ah come on, you're better than this.

    Irish culture is by an large very rich in diversity, we practice a ton of very niche sports, like road bowling for instance, or Point to Point, which are not engaged with by the vast majority of Irish people but are still a valuable part of our shared culture.

    But culture can have a dark side, it is not something that people should be offended by..in fact a healthy society should have no problem accepting flaws in our shared culture.


  • #7063
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Ah come on, you're better than this.

    Irish culture is by an large very rich in diversity, we practice a ton of very niche sports, like road bowling for instance, or Point to Point, which are not engaged with by the vast majority of Irish people but are still a valuable part of our shared culture.

    But culture can have a dark side, it is not something that people should be offended by..in fact a healthy society should have no problem accepting flaws in our shared culture.

    By that logic that person with the sign what was it all men are scum or something is part of Irish culture. Should we be setting up classes for these people also ?


  • #7064
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/rugby-player-craig-gilroy-to-be-subject-of-ulster-irfu-review-1.3449420


    I see they have tracked downn one of the dastardly six who posted about sluts on the whatsapp group, the group was jacome so thats Jackson, Craig,Olding, McIlroy, we have four of the men now but we need to track down the other two.

    If we keep this up there will be no one left to play rugby at all, we are now a laughing stock.

    Ask the Muslims what they think about our fair women folk in their butt revealing going out clothes, I would say white trash would be putting it mildly.


  • #7065
    hill16bhoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭hill16bhoy


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Not so. You're watching too much Love/Hate.

    If you believe that rape and sexual assault is not a common occurrence in prisons, you're extremely naive.

    In 2008, 216,000 prisoners were raped in the US.

    I can't find statistics for this country, but you can be damn well sure rape is a constant threat for prisoners and that it is under-reported too.


  • #7066
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Tipcorlad wrote: »
    The conviction rate is so low because we have a legal system that is stacked against a victim of rape.

    Sweeping statement - Explain?
    Tipcorlad wrote: »
    It is so low because of the rape myths that are so common in everyday life, many seen here on tbis thread

    Really how so? Give an example...
    Tipcorlad wrote: »
    It is so low because reasonable doubt has been made out by defence laywers to be any doubt at all, not any reasonable doubt.

    Really? Give an example please?
    Tipcorlad wrote: »
    I believe that girls account but based on the law i couldnt have found them guilty as there is always room for a tiny bit of doubt in a he said she said.

    You literally do not know what you are talking about.
    It is up to the DPP to prove guilt... Not suggest it it or take anyone's word for it, but to prove it.
    Tipcorlad wrote: »
    But the evidence should carry the most weight. A woman can have an internal tear, be seen to be hysterical by a completely independant witness, have bloodstained clothes, have her blood on the duvet where she claims to have been raped, tell friends immediately, have a medical exam within 24hrs, go to the police and still it is not enough.
    I think a rape case (possibly all criminal cases) should be judged by judges who are specially trained to disregard rape myths.
    The new Icelandic law seems positive. Enthusiastic consent. What everyman having sex should want.

    So you think it is the judges is at fault that in this particular case these guys where found not guilty? Or the jury?

    What myths would the judge need to dispel?
    Explain to me how you would prove or disprove the enthusiasm of the sex within the context of these new Icelandic laws?


  • #7067
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    By that logic that person with the sign what was it all men are scum or something is part of Irish culture. Should we be setting up classes for these people also ?

    Probably!!


  • #7068
    upandcumming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭upandcumming


    hill16bhoy wrote: »
    The first part of your post didn't add anything, which is why I left it out.

    Culture relates to society. It does not imply it relates to the whole of society, which would plainly be absurd - otherwise there would be pretty much no such thing as culture.

    There is a culture of going to League of Ireland matches. There is a culture of traditional music in Ireland. There is a culture of binge drinking until you can't drink anymore. The vast, vast majority of people do not attend League of Ireland matches or play or go to listen to traditional music. That doesn't mean those things aren't culture. The majority of people do not binge drink until they can't walk. That doesn't mean there isn't a culture of binge drinking in Ireland.

    I'm not really interested in going down the rabbit hole you're clearly intent on dragging me down.

    You still haven't dealt with any of the examples of rape culture I gave.

    Again - statements are not arguments.
    I'm clearly intent on nothing.
    And I should have been clearer in what I was saying - the boards app is truly awful.
    I have no intention in dealing with any of your examples of rape culture. However, I will concede that your interpretation of culture is much different to mine, and me saying that it is societal didn't help.


  • #7069
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,085 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    tretorn wrote: »
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/rugby-player-craig-gilroy-to-be-subject-of-ulster-irfu-review-1.3449420


    I see they have tracked downn one of the dastardly six who posted about sluts on the whatsapp group, the group was jacome so thats Jackson, Craig,Olding, McIlroy, we have four of the men now but we need to track down the other two.

    If we keep this up there will be no one left to play rugby at all, we are now a laughing stock.


    No. We're actually Grand Slam winners.


  • #7070
    hill16bhoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭hill16bhoy


    tritium wrote: »
    So you still haven’t answered me

    By your standard is there a culture of misandry in Ireland?

    Be my guest to call views you don't like whatever you like.

    I don't doubt that there are misandrists in Ireland, I also don't doubt that their number is far, far smaller than those who engage in rape culture, and that while their views may be idiotic and reprehensible, those views and their behavioural manifestations are also far, far less of a threat to men than views synonymous with rape culture and their behavioural manifestations are to women.


  • #7071
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    I really cant understand what consent classes are going to achieve. Those that rape will still rape. It seems to me that this is being pushed by certain groups that studied gender studies or some other voodoo.

    I think some people have the strange idea that crime happens because people don't understand things are frowned on by society/wrong/illegal. If only someone had told them there would be no crime.


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  • #7072
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,520 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    erica74 wrote: »
    No, I didn't say that the teaching of sexual education curriculum would begin before a parent consents to the teaching of it. I'm not sure what the problem is.
    I'd be certain and hope, even though I don't have children, that parents would be consulted before a sex education curriculum is introduced.

    I sure it was accidental, but you didn't quote your original post.

    Here it is as a reminder.
    erica74 wrote: »
    Parents send their children to school and as such consent to them attending classes where they are taught maths and English and that also now includes (or should include or is going to include) sex education, which includes consent. These classes will follow a set curriculum based on actual facts and not one person's "ideas and values".

    I'm sure if you have a problem with what your child is being taught in school, whether it be sex education or maths, you can contact the school and discuss it.


  • #7073
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Ah come on, you're better than this.

    Irish culture is by an large very rich in diversity, we practice a ton of very niche sports, like road bowling for instance, or Point to Point, which are not engaged with by the vast majority of Irish people but are still a valuable part of our shared culture.

    But culture can have a dark side, it is not something that people should be offended by..in fact a healthy society should have no problem accepting flaws in our shared culture.

    Im actually not!
    Im somewhat disappointed though you havent used the goto charge of accusing me of being ill informed!

    Throwing around phrases like "rape culture", and attempting to equate the infrequent examples experienced as regular events, rather than the absolute outliers they are, is not serving you well. Nor is your attempts to use the SCC or inter/intra travellers violence to bolster your argument.

    "Culture" itself is neither good nor bad. Its an indifferent noun. Dont try and move the posts!


  • #7074
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    The consent classes are a kneejerk reaction to the motley crowd of protesters, they wont happen at all as all this will be forgotten about next week.


  • #7075
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    So culture refers only to the "good" things in society...

    Right, I see where the problem is.


    I will repeat myself once more:

    Oh I agree some traditions or cultural practices are harmful, we just don't have a "rape culture"

    I see your problem is following a the full discourse of the argument.


  • #7076
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I sure it was accidental, but you didn't quote your original post.

    Here it is as a reminder.

    What happens when places like Clonskeagh refuses to take up this curriculum ?


  • #7077
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Maurice Riordan wrote: »
    I knew these gentlemen would be found not guilty. I hope they can get their rugby careers back on track.

    They are many things, off pitch all of them unflattering but gentlemen they are not.


  • #7078
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,520 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    kylith wrote: »
    No, rape is rape when someone has sex with someone else against their will.

    If some guy comes in and has sex with me while I am asleep, or pins me down and forcibly inserts his penis is me, or I allow him to have sex with me because he puts a gun to my head, or I'm too drunk to fight some guy off it does not mean that it is not rape just because he isn't found guilty in a court.

    Not being found guilty of a crime does not mean that the crime was not committed. Al Capone was still a gangster and racketeerer, even though he was only found guilty of tax evasion.

    I'm specifically talking about convictions.


  • #7079
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    ....so there is no such thing as the hook up culture?

    If it is wide spread and seen as socially normalised then it could be argued it is part of the culture.


  • #7080
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    tretorn wrote: »
    The consent classes are a kneejerk reaction to the motley crowd of protesters, they wont happen at all as all this will be forgotten about next week.

    Why are you so scared of the next generation of young people having healthier attitudes to sexual encounters ?
    Don't worry, nobody is going to force you yourself into a class. You're clearly beyond learning anything.


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  • #7081
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,520 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    ShowMeTheCash wrote: »
    If I woman told me she was raped, my initial position would be to believe her as would I think most peoples.....

    What if a woman told you that your father raped her, who do you believe now?
    It's real easy believe the alleged victim when she is the only party you know.

    How about a stranger tells you that your brother raped her?


This discussion has been closed.
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