Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

upandcumming · 03-04-2018 02:41PM

erica74 wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is not the impression I have gotten from the contributors to this thread. I'm moving slightly away from the trial itself (I agree 100% with the verdict of the jury in that there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute) and moreso to the actual concept of consent. It may be "off topic" but a trial like this brings about these sort of discussions.

I believe that consent can be removed during, but can it be removed the following day for example?

GreeBo · 03-04-2018 02:44PM

seamus wrote: »

Given that 65% of victims (according to the rape crisis network) don't report sexual violence to the Gardai, there's your general ballpark figure of the number of people wandering around blissfully unaware that they may have raped someone.
You're conflating two very different things though.

It's easy to know when you've killed someone. One minute they're standing in front of you, the next they're dead, and you did it.

Consent, not so straightforward.

Thank you for answering.

I don't disagree, but if consent is such an intangible and its almost impossible to prove either way, where do we as a society end up? Chaperones?

I also wouldnt agree that unreported means that a rape took place.
If all we needed to confirm rape was an accusation, then we wouldnt have trials and evidence requirements.

GreeBo · 03-04-2018 02:44PM

upandcumming wrote: »

I believe that consent can be removed during, but can it be removed the following day for example?

No, consent can be removed up to and during, not afterwards.

FrancieBrady · 03-04-2018 02:45PM

upandcumming wrote: »

I believe that consent can be removed during, but can it be removed the following day for example?

That is Roe McDermot's utopia.

You can have a night of consensual sex but consent can be withdrawn next morning.
Welcome to the brave new world.

Mr.H · 03-04-2018 02:47PM

kylith wrote:

Would you behave in the same manner with a total stranger as you do with your wife, or would you take the approx 2 seconds to day â€˜do you want toâ€™?

I don't know if I have ever asked to be honest. I do know however any of my sexual partners in the past have either been great actors or have been very into it. I mean FFS its not hard to tell if someone is into it.

Let me ask you this.

Have you ever asked a stranger if you could kiss them or did you just go for it?

ShowMeTheCash · 03-04-2018 02:47PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Legally a rapist needs to be aware that consent is not given, if they actually believe it is consensual then legally is is not longer the definition or rape. The issue arises if they are reckless in this belief or not.

tritium · 03-04-2018 02:47PM

joe40 wrote: »

Personal responsibility is one thing but a young woman should still be to go to house with someone, engage in "sexual behaviour" but still have the right to stop at any stage or not go further than they are happy with.
I was young many years ago and it was common enough to go back to a house even to a bed with someone but full sexual intercourse was never expected as a right in those circumstances.

Yep, few if any arguing otherwise. However there is an onus on someone who has consented to communicate properly if the consent has been withdrawn ( not ‘clear body language’ or I froze so they should have known- clear communication)

GreeBo · 03-04-2018 02:48PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So we have plenty on both sides, hence consent classes arent some silver bullet.

If a woman genuinely believes she was raped and a man genuinely doesn't believe he raped her, what is the most satisfactory outcome in your opinion?

Unless a woman says "no", I dont see how a man is supposed to know that the woman who came into your bed and engaged in sexual activity with you is going to accuse you of rape if you put your penis inside her?
I honestly dont see how society can function within those boundaries.

kylith · 03-04-2018 02:50PM

Mr.H wrote: »

I don't know if I have ever asked to be honest. I do know however any of my sexual partners in the past have either been great actors or have been very into it. I mean FFS its not hard to tell if someone is into it.

Let me ask you this.

Have you ever asked a stranger if you could kiss them or did you just go for it?

Yes, I would usually have asked.

For someone who’s drunk it may not be obvious that their partner isn’t into it, or they may write off reluctance as shy, coy, or teasing. Best to get into the habit of always checking, I think.

RoboRat · 03-04-2018 02:51PM

Rape can be an ambiguous crime. Not like murder or theft. Sometimes the person who was raped doesnt realise they were raped, sometimes the rapist doesnt realise they were raping someone, sometimes one party holds one belief and the other the other.

I agree, there are plenty of women who have probably woke up being snuggled by a guy who may have wittingly/ unwittingly raped them. They may have thought they had a great night but were not in the position to consent to anything. Perhaps they ended up in a relationship, even married their unknown rapist.

Likewise there are plenty of women who may have consented but after the fact, felt used or didn't like how it all happened or panned out after the fact. This isn't rape, it's bad sex / judgement and certainly not a crime.

joe40 · 03-04-2018 02:53PM

There is a serious amount of scaremongering going on with regards consent and not knowing what is expected from us guys. I was no ladies man growing up but in every sexual encounter I ever had it was always obvious without exception what was been "consented" to.
I know false accusations happen and when they do should be treated as vile, serious crimes without a doubt.
What I do not accept is a man thinking consent was given when it wasn't. You always know.
You also know when the woman is responsive, and participating even when she had drink taken.

Appledreams15 · 03-04-2018 02:55PM

Mr.H wrote: »

I think it's ridiculous to expect schools to sp what you are too frightened or lazy today do. A great piece of advice I will be passing to my future kids.

It doesn't matter the gender or sexual orientation. When you go out day or night you need to be careful. Just keep your eyes open and be aware of your surroundings. Make good judgement calls. Be careful the message you send with what you wear. Yes wearing a top that shows your tits and shorts that show ass cheeks is going to attract attention. We all like to get attention from the opposite sex but there is obviously good and bad attention. If you dress like a scum bag you will be treated like one. If you dress like a homeless person you will be treated like one and of course If you dress like a stripper again you will be treated like one. It sucks but that's the way the world works. Dressing in a sexy way doesn't mean you are asking for it of course. The good people will respect that. It's the wrong ones that will also give you attention that you need to be careful of. So yes what you wear is important and does matter. Who your friends are also matters. The wrong type of people defines you in the wrong way. The way you act and talk will also define you. Be respectful of others and learn to trust. But most of all trust and respect yourself. I hope my daughter meets am amazing guy. But I hope she takes her time and trusts him before putting herself in a situation that needs trust. The same for my future son.

All decisions have consequences. What you wear who you talk to and going home with strangers.

You are only a victim of you put yourself in stupid situations.

Afterall you wouldn't let your caveman child play with a trex would you?

So if I see a girl in a swimsuit in my local swimming pool, I can go up to her and touch her?

erica74 · 03-04-2018 02:55PM

upandcumming wrote: »

I believe that consent can be removed during, but can it be removed the following day for example?

I believe consent can be removed before and during but not afterwards. However, a person may not immediately realise they have been raped. It can sometimes be days, weeks, months, even years, before a person realises they have been raped.

RoboRat · 03-04-2018 02:56PM

So we have plenty on both sides, hence consent classes arent some silver bullet.

I don't think anybody thinks they are a silver bullet. They will however clear up some of the possible blurred boundaries such as if a woman is drunk/ asleep that it's not OK to do what you like, irrespective of the fact that you may be in a relationship with them. If a woman willingly goes to your room that you are guaranteed sex. That is she agrees to sex with a condom, that you can go without. If you are married that you have sex on tap and so on so forth.

Personally I think an open an frank discussion with young people about what is right and wrong is a good idea as there are a lot of bad parents out there so we cannot take it as a given that they are learning this at home.

Mr.H · 03-04-2018 02:59PM

Appledreams15 wrote:

So if I see a girl in a swimsuit in my local swimming pool, I can go up to her and touch her?

Try reading that post again before saying something ridiculous

optogirl · 03-04-2018 02:59PM

RoboRat wrote: »

I don't think anybody thinks they are a silver bullet. They will however clear up some of the possible blurred boundaries such as if a woman is drunk/ asleep that it's not OK to do what you like, irrespective of the fact that you may be in a relationship with them. If a woman willingly goes to your room that you are guaranteed sex. That is she agrees to sex with a condom, that you can go without. If you are married that you have sex on tap and so on so forth.

Personally and open an frank discussion with young people about what is right and wrong is a good idea as there are a lot of bad parents out there so we cannot take it as a given that they are learning this at home.

totally agree - I can't see how these types of discussions in school can hurt - they can only force boys & girls to think more about issues around their own personal responsibility & the issue of consent and make them more likely to discuss this stuff with partners. It should be as normal as using contraception to check in with a sexual partner about whether what's happening is cool or not.

QuietMan2010 · 03-04-2018 03:00PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The proper analogy is the passenger hopped into a car with a random stranger and didn't check whether they had been drinking because they themselves were drunk.

Run the analogy from there.

If the passenger was drunk when she hopped into the car, then she was "too drunk to consent" to be carried in it. She was not responsible for her choice or action, nor any consequences arising.

Appledreams15 · 03-04-2018 03:01PM

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

Not a legal argument, sex is either consensual or non-consensual there is no default.

Again legally the DPP needs to prove a crime so the DPP needs to prove the sex was non-consensual.

Sex is not about one person talking something from the other, it is an act by two consenting adults.
You cannot consent to theft... Same way you cannot consent to assault... I could come to your party punch you in the face then argue you asked me to punch you in the face... But the DPP generally have a much better time proving theft or assault as consenting to it is not something that can happen.

The danger that you cannot seem to see is it sets a president that someone needs to prove their innocent opposed to the DPP proving their guilt.

Rape is very much 'one person taking something from the other'
It is a power play.
It is one person taking something from the other.

My rapist walked past me in a pub, slowed down and smirked at me.

Another women recounted her rape story to me, and that she recounted the exact same thing afterwards chilled me. That the man slowly walked past her (this time in church) slowed down and smirked at her. They know that they have hurt you.

I moved out of that town.
She stopped going to church.

GreeBo · 03-04-2018 03:01PM

erica74 wrote: »

It can sometimes be days, weeks, months, even years, before a person realises they have been raped.

Realises or decides?

tritium · 03-04-2018 03:02PM

....... wrote: »

Id wager plenty of them dont.

The common belief is that rapists jump out of bushes and rape a screaming fighting woman.

The reality is that many rapes happen silently, most rapes happen with people who know each other and not strangers and in many cases alcohol is involved and blurs the lines for everyone.

A very brief roam around Personal Issues on boards.ie will show you many posts from women who wonder if they were in fact raped at all (and generally the responses are pretty evenly split).

Rape can be an ambiguous crime. Not like murder or theft. Sometimes the person who was raped doesnt realise they were raped, sometimes the rapist doesnt realise they were raping someone, sometimes one party holds one belief and the other the other.

if you havent already watched it I strongly recommend the documentary Raw Deal: A Question of Consent.

^^^ this

This is why the why question of reasonable belief in consent comes up

If it’s present the person isn’t a rapist, end of

In this case it seems there was a belief of consent. The jury clearly felt it was a reasonable belief.

No amount of hand wringing changes that. Teaching people to communicate better might prevent a similar situation

None of the parties can be more or less excused for their drunken state

Mr.H · 03-04-2018 03:02PM

Appledreams15 wrote:

So if I see a girl in a swimsuit in my local swimming pool, I can go up to her and touch her?

Try reading that post again before saying something ridiculous

Appledreams15 · 03-04-2018 03:03PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Try reading that post again before saying something ridiculous

He said if a girl wears a skimpy outfit, it is her fault for attracting unwanted sexual attention, yes?

So I said, using that logic, what about normal sporty instances where girls wear skimpy clothing, eg swimming.

By his logic I am allowed to go up and harrass them and touch them yes? They are wearing skimpy clothing, hey asked for it.

# skimpy clothing argument is bullsh£t.

GreeBo · 03-04-2018 03:04PM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Rape is very much 'one person taking something from the other'
It is a power play.
It is one person taking something from the other.

My rapist walked past me and a pub, slowed down and smirked at me.

Another women recounted her rape story to me, and that she recounted the exact same thing afterwards chilled me. That the man slowly walked past her (this time in church) slowed down and smirked at her. They know that they have hurt you.

I moved out of that town.
She stopped going to church.

Im sorry. but you cant bundle all rape into a single basket like this.
Your anedcodtal examples of rape are not enough to generalise.

We have already had someone say that for 65% of "rapes" the "rapist" isnt/wasnt aware they were apparenty raping someone.

Its not much of a power play if you dont even know you are doing it.

With the greatest of respect, I believe you are letting your personal circumstances decide your opinion on a whole spectrum of scenarios.

....... · 03-04-2018 03:04PM

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FrancieBrady · 03-04-2018 03:04PM

QuietMan2010 wrote: »

If the passenger was drunk when she hopped into the car, then she was "too drunk to consent" to be carried in it. She was not responsible for her choice or action, nor any consequences arising.

When the driver saw them hop in, they 'assumed' they wanted a lift.

Probably wrong thing to do, but passenger is STILL dead or seriously injured.

RoboRat · 03-04-2018 03:05PM

QuietMan2010 wrote: »

If the passenger was drunk when she hopped into the car, then she was "too drunk to consent" to be carried in it. She was not responsible for her choice or action, nor any consequences arising.

So the passenger was not responsible for drinking too much and clouding their own judgement? If you were sober or had a few drinks, you would be able to make a much more informed call about the condition of the driver and as such, the outcome would probably be very different.

Not in all situations, but it would significantly increase the chances of the right decision being made.

It still doesn't place the blame on the passenger.

Mr.H · 03-04-2018 03:05PM

kylith wrote:

Yes, I would usually have asked.

Fair enough. Don't think many would ask before kissing someone in a club for example. Anyway my point still stands. You don't need a verbal contract to establish whether you should or not

GreeBo · 03-04-2018 03:06PM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

He said if a girl wears a skimpy outfit, it is her fault for attracting unwanted sexual attention, yes?

So I said, using that logic, what about normal sporty instances where girls wear skimpy clothing, eg swimming.

By his logic I am allowed to go up and harrass them and touch them yes? They are wearing skimpy clothing, hey asked for it.

# skimpy clothing argument is bullsh£t.

"harass".

If you read your own posts you will be able to answer your own questions without bothing the rest of us with nonsensical posts.

blanch152 · 03-04-2018 03:07PM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

He said if a girl wears a skimpy outfit, it is her fault for attracting unwanted sexual attention, yes?

So I said, using that logic, what about normal sporty instances where girls wear skimpy clothing, eg swimming.

By his logic I am allowed to go up and harrass them and touch them yes? They are wearing skimpy clothing, hey asked for it.

# skimpy clothing argument is bullsh£t.

Context, context. There are no absolutes in life.

....... · 03-04-2018 03:07PM

This post has been deleted.

Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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