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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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Comments

  • #6242
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    I made that point a few days back and was told it happened 80 miles up the road.

    Lots of people protesting here and elaewhere need to go back to 1st year geography and civics.

    Come on, this happened on the other side of this island, not the other side of the world.

    The protests have already begun to affect change in this state, so in the future a lot of victims of rape will have this case to be grateful for.


  • #6243
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Silentcorner wrote: »

    The protests have already begun to affect change in this state, so in the future a lot of victims of rape will have this case to be grateful for.

    Not quite. All that is happening is a review


  • #6244
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Uncharted wrote: »
    Unravelling with every post........ you haven't a notion of the facts of the case. You're simply latching on to the hyperbole post case! Lol. Stereotypical bandwagoner extraordinaire

    You do realise that that is a two way street, especially in a divisive case like this.


  • #6245
    hynesie08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,320 ✭✭✭✭hynesie08


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Come on, this happened on the other side of this island, not the other side of the world.

    The protests have already begun to affect change in this state, so in the future a lot of victims of rape will have this case to be grateful for.

    But things that happen in Denmark don't effect Sweden, Canada the USA, Portugal/Spain etc. I'm glad it's opened a line of Dialogue but it's still a fact that it's a different country with different rules, which seems to float over a lot of people's heads.


  • #6246
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,943 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The peak popularity of professional soccer(including willing sponsors) was during the whole 'Lad' culture era when much more sexist and inappropriate comment and objectification of women took place. Viz magazine anyone?
    And yet we have people here thinking the terminology and content of the whatsapp 'after a night out' conversation was unusual.
    I cannot think of one sponsor who walked away after significant and almost every week exposure of player debauchery and bad behaviour.

    It wasn't unusual for lads to talk like that at all, however much I dislike it or wouldn't talk about women like that myself.
    And it wasn't about bragging about sending a woman home bleeding and in hysterics either.
    If it was, could somebody please point to the relevant part?


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  • #6247
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,047 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Point where I said they were guilty please.

    You wont be able to, because what I have said is that I believe the woman felt she was raped, and I also believe the lads didn't realise this. Which is why I've been talking about consent for the last few days.

    What I have argued is people spreading fake news that the verdict means the jury didn't believe her, that the rape didn't happen, that she lied etc.

    It's all false.

    All the verdict means is that the prosecution couldn't prove their case beyond reasonable doubt, and in this trial it's a verdict I believe.

    Don't tell me what I do and don't think, please.

    Also, the pair of them created this mess by being absolute animals whether a rape happened or not. One of the men acknowledges it, regrets it and understands the repercussions of his behaviour. The other one is being a spoiled brat and keeping himself in the public eye instead of focussing on getting back to work, as he said he's was going to do.
    Fair enough, my mistake.


  • #6248
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Jackson knew she was bleeding.

    Rory Harrison told Blane McIlroy that she was in hysterics.

    Olding boasted about being top shaggers, while the pair of them boasted about spit roasting.

    All of this came out in court. The lads don't have a leg to stand on if both the IRFU and Ulster wanted to cancel their contracts for gross misconduct or bringing the game into disrepute.

    These are professional sportsmen who are expected to carry themselves well because they're in the public eye.

    Whether the messages were intended to be private or not is irrelevant, they were made public in this trial.

    If the sponsors say no, then it's all on Jackson and Olding. If they don't behave like animals then this doesn't happen.

    Also, I'll remind you, Jackson hasn't apologised to the complainant like Olding has. That will be one of the first things they'll ask him in that review.

    Ok so we agree Jackson did little wrong. I asked you to stop blaming him for the actions of others.

    Why would Jackson apologise when he clearly believes it was consensual and the woman filed a false accusation against him?

    I have little interest in Harrison or McIlroy.

    Jackson has a legal verdict and a contract to stand on. If the IRFU break that contract to pander to the likes of coppinger it will cost .


  • #6249
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Stheno wrote: »
    Not quite. All that is happening is a review

    A review is how it begins, and it would be churlish to suggest that change won't be achieved, there is a huge amount of determination to enshrine that change in legislation.

    You can of course take to the streets to object to any change, every one has a right to protest.


  • #6250
    tritium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭tritium


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Why hasn't Jackson apologised then?

    That's part of my point, Ulster and the IRFU could say "this woman left your house bleeding and in hysterics, why haven't you apologised?" And he would have no legitimate answer for it.

    What Jackson has been doing is going after other people. He's let his solicitor attack the PSNI, the PPS and use his standing as an international rugby player to suggest that was the reason for bringing the case. He has also let his solicitor say he's looking forward to getting back to work, which means representing his province and country as if it was a thinly veiled threat to Ulster and the IRFU.

    Olding, in contrast, regretted the night, apologised for the hurt caused to the complainant, and said he hoped to be able to play rugby again.

    Olding gets it, Jackson refuses to get it, and it sums up the attitude of privileged that were thrown at him.

    Seriously that privilege nonsense is more of the sleazy cps and prosecution tactics. Others have said all the defendants required legal aid at some point. Hardly rich kids with a crack legal team.

    I’d imagine Jackson hasnt apologised because right now he’s very angry at having his life destroyed by what he sees as a false rape allegation from a girl who, according to evidence, came on to him while he was very drunk. That may not be a fully accurate view but neither is the accusers view likely to be. Tbh after what he’s gone through, assuming he gave truthful evidence he’s entitled to feel that way


  • #6251
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    A review is how it begins, and it would be churlish to suggest that change won't be achieved, there is a huge amount of determination to enshrine that change in legislation.

    You can of course take to the streets to object to any change, every one has a right to protest.

    The review may find no change is required here


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  • #6252
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Stheno wrote: »
    The review may find no change is required here

    Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong, I have no idea what the future holds.

    I don't know what exactly your issue is.


  • #6253
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,943 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    A review is how it begins, and it would be churlish to suggest that change won't be achieved, there is a huge amount of determination to enshrine that change in legislation.

    You can of course take to the streets to object to any change, every one has a right to protest.

    What needs to change in the south?


  • #6254
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,085 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Come on, this happened on the other side of this island, not the other side of the world.

    The protests have already begun to affect change in this state, so in the future a lot of victims of rape will have this case to be grateful for.

    Nothing to do with the crime but all to do with the celebs.
    Still two different jurisdictions.
    Btw- the system down here is supposedly better.
    Perhaps the review should take place in NI.


  • #6255
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    what changes are they claiming are needed


  • #6256
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    RuMan wrote: »
    Ok so we agree Jackson did little wrong. I asked you to stop blaming him for the actions of others.

    Why would Jackson apologise when he clearly believes it was consensual and the woman filed a false accusation against him?

    I have little interest in Harrison or McIlroy.

    Jackson has a legal verdict and a contract to stand on. If the IRFU break that contract to pander to the likes of coppinger it will cost .

    I'm blaming him for his actions.

    He performed sex acts on a woman who was left bleeding (which he knew) and in hysterics.

    He boasted about spitroasting said woman (who was left bleeding and in hysterics) on whatsapp.

    He used his standing as an international rugby player to suggest this was a malicious case that was brought against him.

    He hasn't apologised to the woman despite the fact Olding has.

    That's all on him. Stop telling me to not blame him for his actions. He behaved in a way that made a woman feel like she was raped (note I said 'feel like' and am not saying he raped her. Big difference). That is inexcusable.

    He is an international rugby player (he may have said that once or twice) and he behaved despicably. That is enough for him to lose his job if the IRFU and Ulster sees fit.

    The IRFU won't be pandering to any politician. If the sponsors don't want those two wearing their logos, then there's plenty the IRFU have on Jackson and Olding if they so need.

    Also, show me the evidence that she filed a false allegation please. Innocent until proven guilty works both ways.


  • #6257
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/martina-devlin-twotier-morality-means-girls-face-an-impossible-list-of-dos-and-donts-36757069.html

    "Don’t set foot in the VIP section of any nightclub where well-known rugby players are partying because they’ll automatically assume you’re asking for it.


    Don’t chat with them because it may give them grounds for insisting you were flirty or led them on. Talking to red-blooded young males is inherently provocative.

    Don’t make the mistake of kissing any of these men, under the impression that nothing else needs to happen."

    Why do some girls go into VIP sections? Is it to talk about rugby? If its just for talking why kiss them passionately? Why is it easier for girls to get into VIP sections than guys? If you kiss a VIP and then go home with them surely that's sending some kind of signal to a red-blooded young male?

    Are groupies at rock concerts still a thing, or is that now frowned upon?

    I think basic commons sense is missing, civilized societies have only existed for 10,000 years, but male and female homo-sapiens have been mating for 500,000 years, and our brains have been evolving for 5,000,000 years. Sometimes we forget we are just animals covered in clothing, thats absolutely no excuse for rape, but men and women need to be more aware of their behaviour


  • #6258
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What needs to change in the south?

    Ah come on...

    Like I have said, at least half a dozen time, a victim should have access to her own legal representation.

    For a start.

    I also think that everyone from An Garda, to the Judiciary should receive and be familiar with every aspect of rape and sexual assault.

    I also think that jurors should be given an induction course to the same.

    By the way, more education would help everyone sort between genuine rape cases and false rape accusations.


  • #6259
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Advice to PJ if he wants to play again - come down off his high horse, accept his part in being an asshole that night, he can say it was out of character but he is sorry for letting fans down and something along the lines of sorry for any thoughtless (not sure that's the right word)behaviour that upset the young woman. Time to be humble now Paddy. After all if he could live that time again, he would do it very differently, I'm sure or at least I hope. God knows he will have to keep his nose clean from now on so it's a very quiet life from now on.
    If he persists with anger and no personal responsibility whatsoever, I think it won't go well for him because you see it's not the diehard fans who are still onside he has to reach but those like me whose stomach he currently turns.


  • #6260
    tritium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭tritium


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Ah come on...

    Like I have said, at least half a dozen time, a victim should have access to her own legal representation.

    For a start.

    I also think that everyone from An Garda, to the Judiciary should receive and be familiar with every aspect of rape and sexual assault.

    I also think that jurors should be given an induction course to the same.

    By the way, more education would help everyone sort between genuine rape cases and false rape accusations.

    What about cases like this one, which are unlikely to fit in either of those two categories?


  • #6261
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    The major change needed in UK law is to allow men their anonymity until such time as they are convicted of rape.
    I cant see what major changes are needed in our jurisdiction.
    Im not happy for any reduction in the rights of accused mdn to defend themselves.
    Im appalled the Belfast case was ever taken so no way do I want some sort of secret court system for men accused of rape, god knows what would go on there if we let feminist lunatics be in charge.


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  • #6262
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    what changes are they claiming are needed

    Privacy ? So innocent men dont have their lives destroyed by Amadan O'Riordan, Coppinger and the Twitter mob.

    We already have that here though
    I'd suggest harsher sentences for rapists but the left dont like to give harsh sentences to criminals. Better to abuse innocent people apparently.


  • #6263
    upandcumming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭upandcumming


    FrancieBrady wrote:
    What needs to change in the south?


    I know one!
    If a complainant waives anonymity, that means the defendants right (in a rape case) to anonymity is gone. That is wrong.


  • #6264
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    Nothing to do with the crime but all to do with the celebs.
    Still two different jurisdictions.
    Btw- the system down here is supposedly better.
    Perhaps the review should take place in NI.

    The problem in the North is that there is no one in Government.

    The system down here is a bit better, but still not what it should be.

    The celeb aspect drove the media exposure....the trial went on for 4 weeks longer than expected...that didn't help either.


  • #6265
    tritium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭tritium


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Advice to PJ if he wants to play again - come down off his high horse, accept his part in being an asshole that night, he can say it was out of character but he is sorry for letting fans down and something along the lines of sorry for any thoughtless (not sure that's the right word)behaviour that upset the young woman. Time to be humble now Paddy. After all if he could live that time again, he would do it very differently, I'm sure or at least I hope. God knows he will have to keep his nose clean from now on so it's a very quiet life from now on.
    If he persists with anger and no personal responsibility whatsoever, I think it won't go well for him because you see it's not the diehard fans who are still onside he has to reach but those like me whose stomach he currently turns.

    A question though, if as per his version, he had sex with a woman who and on to him while he was extremely drunk what exactly should he apologise for? Why should he be humble?


  • #6266
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    upandcumming wrote: »
    I know one!
    If a complainant waives anonymity, that means the defendants right (in a rape case) to anonymity is gone. That is wrong.

    That is after a guilty verdict.


  • #6267
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Advice to PJ if he wants to play again - come down off his high horse, accept his part in being an asshole that night, he can say it was out of character but he is sorry for letting fans down and something along the lines of sorry for any thoughtless (not sure that's the right word)behaviour that upset the young woman. Time to be humble now Paddy. After all if he could live that time again, he would do it very differently, I'm sure or at least I hope. God knows he will have to keep his nose clean from now on so it's a very quiet life from now on.
    If he persists with anger and no personal responsibility whatsoever, I think it won't go well for him because you see it's not the diehard fans who are still onside he has to reach but those like me whose stomach he currently turns.

    Yeah he'd have let her go home with Will Grigg

    So why did the case get to court ?!


  • #6268
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Fair enough, my mistake.

    Fair play, and I say that genuinely, not condescendingly.


  • #6269
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    RuMan wrote: »
    Privacy ? So innocent men dont have their lives destroyed by Amadan O'Riordan, Coppinger and the Twitter mob.

    We already have that here though
    I'd suggest harsher sentences for rapists but the left dont like to give harsh sentences to criminals. Better to abuse innocent people apparently.

    i agree 100%.

    i would add that some sort of witness welfare person is a good idea to be there for all witnesses so that they are shown as much repect and care as posible,
    that would apply to all witnesses as well as the defendants equally


  • #6270
    almostover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,430 ✭✭✭almostover


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    what changes are they claiming are needed

    Asked this already today. Still no response.


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  • #6271
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,047 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    what changes are they claiming are needed

    The jury counts for six people instead of twelve. A poll on Facebook makes up the other six.


This discussion has been closed.
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