Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

masculinist · 01-04-2018 04:55PM

The protestors are a lunatic lynch mob . Irish people have a keen bullsh1 detector and I've been listening to all genders condemn this imported ideology of man hating and the goal of utilising propaganda against men to remove the right to due process and a fair trial .
The men had a fair trial . She had more legal rights than them because she got to remain anonymous . Now they have to face a lifetime of irresponsible slander by the ideologically twisted . Not guilty means they are as innocent as any reader of this thread . There is simply nothing to charge them with . Just as there's nothing to charge you with (hopefully). Feminist sjws on the left being extremely bigoted against men view all men as being guilty and all women as perfect . This flies in the face of the facts . The Irish public who are kind to all victims knows this . Victimizing innocent men must stop

Mrsmum · 01-04-2018 04:58PM

Bambi985 wrote: »

To retrieve her bag as she wanted to go home.

"Most women I know wouldn't do that" my arse. Most women want their fcuking bag before they leave a stranger's house. And most women have been in this situation countless times, having their jeans opened or a hand into their knickers when they're hooking up with someone. Guys will try to move things towards sex often in these situations.

Saying "no" or "I don't want to have sex" or backing away and indicating by your body language that you're not into it signals to most average decent non-disgusting men that they should back off, now is not the time for that. 99.9% of the time this is the case. Most men get it loud and clear. You don't walk away feeling lucky to have escaped a predator rapist, you simply signalled your intentions and the situation has now passed.

And now you want to leave and need to get your bag. Which is in said fella's room, but you already told him loud and clear that sex wasn't on the cards so it's all good.

Honestly, you're making a mockery out of men here. Most men are not rapists and most men know that when their advances are rejected, it doesn't mean you should be more forceful next time. Can't believe I even have to type this out.

Well said

TerrorFirmer · 01-04-2018 05:02PM

Realistically as a man I'd be horrified to think a woman considered me both so dangerous and such a threat to be around simply because she refused my advances at an earlier stage that she'd leave her belongings or have someone else retrieve them!

One eyed Jack · 01-04-2018 05:02PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Have we not had numerous posters here laughing at the idea of checking in during the sexual experience, telling us that consent is obvious and that they are well able to tell that their partner is enjoying herself without them having to be checking all the time. If that is the case and their partner withdraws consent, would it not equally be obvious to them that she was no longer enjoying herself ???

Well yes, we have had numerous posters here laughing at the idea of checking in during the sexual experience and stating that consent is obvious and they are well able to tell when their partner or indeed partners, are enjoying themselves. It's unreasonable IMO to expect that consent should be communicated on an ongoing and continuous basis during any sexual encounter. That's why it is laughable the idea that we're all committing rape against each other if we aren't seeking consent on an ongoing and continuous basis. It's an entirely unreasonable standard of expectation.

Now, none of that relates in any way whatsoever to a case where a person makes a complaint to the authorities accusing another person of having committed rape. In that case, then it's not just up to the person themselves whether the other person is actually guilty of committing rape. It's up to a jury, having heard the evidence presented by the prosecution, and the cross examination of the evidence and the witness or witnesses by the defence, to decide whether the accused can be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of having committed the criminal offence of rape.

Silentcorner · 01-04-2018 05:07PM

professore wrote: »

If we assume that the defendant was raped. In some ways she did get justice of a sort. The four involved have had their reputation destroyed, lost over a year of their prime rugby playing careers, and will be persona non grata after retirement for any media, coaching or promotional gigs.

Of course in this scenario she also has to live with the trauma, but most people have a lot of sympathy for her.

I think it is fair to say that there were no winners this week...

It was a brutal 9 weeks for the families of all concerned.

It will follow the lads around for a long time and it shouldn't. Although I find their attitude toward women distasteful it isn't a hanging offence....

For some reason, and I am not sure why, the media took the gloves off with this case, especially after the verdict...I've never seen anything like it...

But, if everyone becomes much more aware of how their behaviour impacts on others...if people realise that their understanding of how rape victims react in these incidents is not what you may previously have thought...if people become more aware of what a rape victim is up against every time they decide to report it...then we all owe that young lady...it can only be healthy for a society....

AnneFrank · 01-04-2018 05:11PM

Not guilty, move on.

Sardonicat · 01-04-2018 05:14PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Regarding consent where does it end?
Most people would be in agreement that there isn't any issue with two people agreeing to have sex and saying yes.
Lets say Bill and Jill agree to have sex.
Bill starts has sex as he normally would and Jill goes along with it. It isn't the sex she's used to. She said nothing because she was scared/afraid. Could this be considered rape in the future?
Will people have to sit down and agree in detail about what will happen during the intercourse.

If the sex you normally have is the type that could leave someone who's not used to it scared and afraid it might be a good idea to have a brief discussion about preferences and expectations before commencing. As in "I'm into X. Have you ever done that? Would you like to try? What are you into?" Are you telling me these conversations are not the norm in your experience?

One eyed Jack · 01-04-2018 05:15PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

You decided it implied that. Like any reasonable person I don't agree that a person can enjoy or willingly take part in sex and the next day decide it was rape. Taking back consent means being entiltled to stop at any point during the sexual act.

I'm not responsible for your miscommunication. We'll also have to disagree on how we define reasonable because it can lead to situations where for example four men may imagine it is entirely reasonable for a woman to consent to having sex with all four of them, only it turns out later that they had no basis for this belief, and then find themselves on the wrong end of the law.

If you'd said that's what you meant, I would have agreed with you. It just shows the futility of conversations around consent as people can still pick you up wrong if you aren't clear in your communications. Everyone else doesn't operate by your standard, and that's why I say the conversation about how we treat each other generally is more important than getting bogged down in conversations about the minutae of consent in relation to any sexual encounter.

Silentcorner · 01-04-2018 05:18PM

masculinist wrote: »

The protestors are a lunatic lynch mob . Irish people have a keen bullsh1 detector and I've been listening to all genders condemn this imported ideology of man hating and the goal of utilising propaganda against men to remove the right to due process and a fair trial .
The men had a fair trial . She had more legal rights than them because she got to remain anonymous . Now they have to face a lifetime of irresponsible slander by the ideologically twisted . Not guilty means they are as innocent as any reader of this thread . There is simply nothing to charge them with . Just as there's nothing to charge you with (hopefully). Feminist sjws on the left being extremely bigoted against men view all men as being guilty and all women as perfect . This flies in the face of the facts . The Irish public who are kind to all victims knows this . Victimizing innocent men must stop

Actually Irish people have a dismal record of protest to the point where it isn't a healthy trait to have....because we are too afraid what people will think of us...

We've been bull****ted by all classes of Irish people for generations as a result...we seem to have no bull**** detector at all!!!!

Discussions of this nature, while uncomfortable for some, should never be swept under the carpet....

RuMan · 01-04-2018 05:34PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Have we not had numerous posters here laughing at the idea of checking in during the sexual experience, telling us that consent is obvious and that they are well able to tell that their partner is enjoying herself without them having to be checking all the time. If that is the case and their partner withdraws consent, would it not equally be obvious to them that she was no longer enjoying herself ???

Yes it would be obvious. At least 2 anyone living in the real world which excludes the ibelieveher mob.
If you have Ruth Coppinger heading ur "movement" u probably want to have a look at urself

RuMan · 01-04-2018 05:36PM

Sam Quentin wrote: »

Some of these posts about: Basically stopping half way through are kinda funny .. THAT'S IF it wasn't about what could be a life changing/destroying moment..

ohhh I do apologise I'll stop right now,.. As she smokes a cigi and searches her phone for her solicitor..
Ohhhhh it looks so easy here in b+w and down in the solicitors office annnnnnnnd it the Four Courts!?
Lets all start videoing our 'sex-ploits' from here on in as evidence.
#GETTING RIDICULOUS

Stop it there Bill

suicide_circus · 01-04-2018 05:38PM

RuMan wrote: »

Stop it there Bill

Roll it there Collette

freshpopcorn · 01-04-2018 05:44PM

Sardonicat wrote: »

If the sex you normally have is the type that could leave someone who's not used to it scared and afraid it might be a good idea to have a brief discussion about preferences and expectations before commencing. As in "I'm into X. Have you ever done that? Would you like to try? What are you into?" Are you telling me these conversations are not the norm in your experience?

Most people I know who've hooked up a night night out started off making out and it went from their sometimes it consent was agreed and other times people carried on with one another because both people were willing.. If either party said stop it stopped.
I never heard of people sitting down and having a big discussion about what was going to happen during sex. What was normal to the person etc it was just standard sex.

01-04-2018 05:45PM

RuMan wrote: »

No i'm a man and she was a woman. We both have sexual desires and took steps to satisfy it. Enjoyable for both , now run along to ur march and hope so woman might give u a charity shag. Lets be honest they'll all like to marry Simon the rugby playing successful businessman

You got this dreadfully wrong quoting me if you think I'd have anything to do with those retarded marches, I was typing that top shagger comment very much in jest. I think nearly every self announced feminist I know has a poisonous, ignorant and sexist outlook. Wouldn't catch me near one of their marches. I'm not too badly stuck for a charity ride either, unless you yourself are offering!

Silentcorner · 01-04-2018 05:50PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Most people I know who've hooked up a night night out started off making out and it went from their sometimes it consent was agreed and other times people carried on with one another because both people were willing.. If either party said stop it stopped.
I never heard of people sitting down and having a big discussion about what was going to happen during sex. What was normal to the person etc it was just standard sex.

Most people move at a similar speed as their partner, so more often than not it doesn't cause any real problems....the problems arise, when, more often than not the man, decides to move at a much different speed to his partner, and if he has any kind of sense of entitlement you start to get into dangerous territory...some women will storm off or vocally communicate their intentions...but if they don't do either and perceive themselves to be in danger....that is where a line gets crossed...and, potentially, a very serious crime has been committed....

emeraldwinter · 01-04-2018 05:51PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Maybe this is a mad idea but would there be any benefit to have four separate court cases ? Would that be fairer at all to the girl as in a one to one rather than four against one? Each defendant had different claims to defend and as witnesses for each other wouldn't have complete knowledge of what each other had said. Might they not be the ones tripping themselves up then ? No ?

What ?

Giftini · 01-04-2018 05:52PM

The conviction rate for rape is 58%. That bears repeating. The conviction rate for rape, is 58%. The conviction rate for reportable crimes of all types is 57%. I know you will have heard the figure of 6%. Everyone has. That figure is actually an attrition rate, not a conviction rate.

An attrition rate is the amount of convictions resulting from reports of a crime, and is not routinely calculated for any crime other than rape. Therefore without manually undertaking the exercise, it is impossible to compare the (true) attrition figure for rape with other crimes. A conviction rate is the amount of convictions following a trial, and is calculated for all reportable crimes.

Why is this important? Because the rhetoric of rape, which largely propounds myths, puts survivors off reporting the crimes committed against them, making them perceive that the system designed to assist them is actually wholly against them.

emeraldwinter · 01-04-2018 05:53PM

irishrebe wrote: »

I literally linked the first post that came up on Google for someone who doesn't seem to think there can be a legal definition of drunk. It's I'm in disbelief that this isn't common sense.

USA law has no bearing on UK or Irish.

RuMan · 01-04-2018 05:53PM

Omackeral wrote: »

You got this dreadfully wrong quoting me if you think I'd have anything to do with those retarded marches, I was typing that top shagger comment very much in jest. I think nearly every self announced feminist I know has a poisonous, ignorant and sexist outlook. Wouldn't catch me near one of their marches. I'm not too badly stuck for a charity ride either, unless you yourself are offering!

No worries ,apologies!

I treat everyone equally. Real men and real women enjoy sex thank god. This retarded attempt to divide men and women against each other is embatrassing.
Most of us are too busy living our lives to attend silly protests just so we can stick something up on instagram.

Spoken for at the moment but thanks 4 the offer

Silentcorner · 01-04-2018 05:55PM

Giftini wrote: »

The conviction rate for rape is 58%. That bears repeating. The conviction rate for rape, is 58%. The conviction rate for reportable crimes of all types is 57%. I know you will have heard the figure of 6%. Everyone has. That figure is actually an attrition rate, not a conviction rate.

An attrition rate is the amount of convictions resulting from reports of a crime, and is not routinely calculated for any crime other than rape. Therefore without manually undertaking the exercise, it is impossible to compare the (true) attrition figure for rape with other crimes. A conviction rate is the amount of convictions following a trial, and is calculated for all reportable crimes.

Why is this important? Because the rhetoric of rape, which largely propounds myths, puts survivors off reporting the crimes committed against them, making them perceive that the system designed to assist them is actually wholly against them.

Wow...thats a huge difference to what I've been led to believe...any links?

RuMan · 01-04-2018 05:56PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Most people I know who've hooked up a night night out started off making out and it went from their sometimes it consent was agreed and other times people carried on with one another because both people were willing.. If either party said stop it stopped.
I never heard of people sitting down and having a big discussion about what was going to happen during sex. What was normal to the person etc it was just standard sex.

Sounds like the world i live in.

Giftini · 01-04-2018 05:56PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Wow...thats a huge difference to what I've been led to believe...any links?

www. theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/mar/19/myths-about-rape-conviction-rates

rafatoni · 01-04-2018 05:57PM

I have just saw tweets from women in the US #ibelieveher and slating Irish men. My God.

Jay$us wept they will be saying Ireland is like the middle east next.

Very worrying this lynch mob is showing us up abroad.

01-04-2018 05:57PM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Everyone knows that rape and sexual assault is a massive problem throughout the world right?

Governments are only beginning to get a tackle on it now.

Isn't it a very animalistic world where the physically stronger overpower and rape the physically weaker? You know it goes on in so many countries. The facts and statistics are there.

It's a nightmare of a world. Why do you want women to live in a world like this.

Imagine we could travel around space and we stumbled across a planet. You saw that there were millions of men and women on the planet.
You looked closer and saw that men were raping, gang raping,abusing and hitting the women on that planet, and displaying women in porn in violent and degrading situations for their own amusement, you saw that men took over most countries governements, so that women had no way to charge their rapists, you saw that women were committing suicide due to it.

What would you describe it as? I would describe it as hell.

Honestly... sounds like you're already there. Men are raped too. Children are raped. Boys by their mothers, school boys by their pedophillic female teachers. You're an out and out sexist though so this matters less to you, if at all. If you singled out travellers or black people in the way you do men, you'd have been warned or banned ages ago.

Sardonicat · 01-04-2018 05:58PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Most people I know who've hooked up a night night out started off making out and it went from their sometimes it consent was agreed and other times people carried on with one another because both people were willing.. If either party said stop it stopped.
I never heard of people sitting down and having a big discussion about what was going to happen during sex. What was normal to the person etc it was just standard sex.

I'm not talking about a long discussion. Just a quick exchange to make sure everyone is on the same page. And as for standard sex; what is one person's standard is another person's boring and someone else's taboo as was aptly pointed out in your post that I replied to.
What you are describing to me is: just assuming the other person's up for it, just assuming they are liking it, just assuming thay can tell if you don't like it.
No communication at all leads to trouble at worst and ****ty sex at best.

RuMan · 01-04-2018 06:03PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

you sound like a right juvenile gobsh*te! The fact that you think people are prudish because they are pointing out that sex or a blowjob with a motionless sleeping body with a is pretty telling, on your behalf!

Noone is saying you or (hopefully) your lucky partner can't enjoy it, people are merely saying on the balance of society, it is outside of the norm of sexual enjoyment and is, most definitely illegal

Just because you enjoy something doesn't make other people prudes. Get over yourself

I'm grand mate. You seem uptight.

Sex is not some sort of legal contract, its unbridled passion between 2 parties either of whom can say stop at any point should they so desire.
I've never discussed consent prior to it, never had a women raise consent nor heard of that happening.
That is the world i live in. Good luck with your legal discussions.

FrancieBrady · 01-04-2018 06:04PM

Bambi985 wrote: »

To retrieve her bag as she wanted to go home.

"Most women I know wouldn't do that" my arse. Most women want their fcuking bag before they leave a stranger's house. And most women have been in this situation countless times, having their jeans opened or a hand into their knickers when they're hooking up with someone. Guys will try to move things towards sex often in these situations.

Saying "no" or "I don't want to have sex" or backing away and indicating by your body language that you're not into it signals to most average decent non-disgusting men that they should back off, now is not the time for that. 99.9% of the time this is the case. Most men get it loud and clear. You don't walk away feeling lucky to have escaped a predator rapist, you simply signalled your intentions and the situation has now passed.

And now you want to leave and need to get your bag. Which is in said fella's room, but you already told him loud and clear that sex wasn't on the cards so it's all good.

Honestly, you're making a mockery out of men here. Most men are not rapists and most men know that when their advances are rejected, it doesn't mean you should be more forceful next time. Can't believe I even have to type this out.

And that was the simple point, before the hysterics started, that this woman had already decided to leave the party because of Jackson's advances. But she went back into a situation were it was quite reasonable to believe a drunken man would try again. In my experience most women would not do that.
At no point did I suggest she was going back into a situation with a 'potential rapist'. (that was the hysterical add on by others to what I said)

Faugheen · 01-04-2018 06:05PM

RuMan wrote: »

The Talking Bread wrote: »

you sound like a right juvenile gobsh*te! The fact that you think people are prudish because they are pointing out that sex or a blowjob with a motionless sleeping body with a is pretty telling, on your behalf!

Noone is saying you or (hopefully) your lucky partner can't enjoy it, people are merely saying on the balance of society, it is outside of the norm of sexual enjoyment and is, most definitely illegal

Just because you enjoy something doesn't make other people prudes. Get over yourself

I'm grand mate. You seem uptight.

Sex is not some sort of legal contract, its unbridled passion between 2 parties either of whom can say stop at any point should they so desire.
I've never discussed consent prior to it, never had a women raise consent nor heard of that happening.
That is the world i live in. Good luck with your legal discussions.

You keep putting your penis/fingers/whatever in women's vaginas when they're asleep and see where it gets you so.

FrancieBrady · 01-04-2018 06:07PM

Faugheen wrote: »

You keep putting your penis/fingers/whatever in women's vaginas when they're asleep and see where it gets you so.

Where has it 'gotten' people whose partner woke up to enjoy it?

Any case histories?

Y

Flipper22 · 01-04-2018 06:08PM

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Florence's evidence corroborated the woman's account of what state she was in.

The complainant didn't claim she was fighting or screaming.

Florence backed this up and also stated she observed no signs of positive consent.

The only way that one can categorically state that a woman who is not fighting or screaming is not being raped, is for one to believe that if a woman doesn't fight or scream, it can't be rape.

That idea, as we know, is categorically false.

Completely agree with what you say but you're missing my main point. The key witness chose to give her subjective view that what she had witnessed was consensual.

She did not have to do that, she could for example have said that she had no idea whether she had observed consensual or non consensual behaviour.

That she chose to give this view, in my mind, shows a continued belief that what happened was consensual.

This is a belief that may be based not only on the few seconds she witnessed the incident but also on anything else she may have observed on the night that was done or said by those involved.

Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Comments