Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

freshpopcorn

Sardonicat wrote: »

I'm not talking about a long discussion. Just a quick exchange to make sure everyone is on the same page. And as for standard sex; what is one person's standard is another person's boring and someone else's taboo as was aptly pointed out in your post that I replied to.
What you are describing to me is: just assuming the other person's up for it, just assuming they are liking it, just assuming thay can tell if you don't like it.
No communication at all leads to trouble at worst and ****ty sex at best.

In soaps/tv or in reality I have never seen people having a long or short discussion about having sex and what was normally to one another.
I have seen people say no tough or to stop and then sex either stopped or never happened in the first place.

RuMan

Faugheen wrote: »

You keep putting your penis/fingers/whatever in women's vaginas when they're asleep and see where it gets you so.

It was her sucking me off. Ended well for both, thanks for your concern though!

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Mrsmum wrote: »

Have we not had numerous posters here laughing at the idea of checking in during the sexual experience, telling us that consent is obvious and that they are well able to tell that their partner is enjoying herself without them having to be checking all the time. If that is the case and their partner withdraws consent, would it not equally be obvious to them that she was no longer enjoying herself ???

If you’re old enough to have sex, and have consented to sex then you’re old enough to use your words. If you consent, you have sex and at any point you want to call a halt to proceedings I believe the onus is on YOU as a grown adult to use your words and say no. He’s not a mind reader, you’re not a child (I hope). Take a little bit of responsibility

Silentcorner

Giftini wrote: »

www. theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/mar/19/myths-about-rape-conviction-rates

Thanks, it is all a bit confusing though...

https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/rape-conviction-rate-offers-no-protection-276761.html

jimbobalob309

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And that was the simple point, before the hysterics started, that this woman had already decided to leave the party because of Jackson's advances. But she went back into a situation were it was quite reasonable to believe a drunken man would try again. In my experience most women would not do that.
At no point did I suggest she was going back into a situation with a 'potential rapist'. (that was the hysterical add on by others to what I said)

grasping at straws here mate. let it go. if a lad tries it on and gets shut down, its reasonable to assume he wont do it again because you told him not to and your grand to nip past him and grab your possessions on the way out. lest you be left with a gigantic headache to deal with in the morning when youre sans phone / wallet / keys. entirely reasonable. anything else youre suggesting is what's hysterical here

Flipper22

Giftini wrote: »

The conviction rate for rape is 58%. That bears repeating. The conviction rate for rape, is 58%. The conviction rate for reportable crimes of all types is 57%. I know you will have heard the figure of 6%. Everyone has. That figure is actually an attrition rate, not a conviction rate.

An attrition rate is the amount of convictions resulting from reports of a crime, and is not routinely calculated for any crime other than rape. Therefore without manually undertaking the exercise, it is impossible to compare the (true) attrition figure for rape with other crimes. A conviction rate is the amount of convictions following a trial, and is calculated for all reportable crimes.

Why is this important? Because the rhetoric of rape, which largely propounds myths, puts survivors off reporting the crimes committed against them, making them perceive that the system designed to assist them is actually wholly against them.

Surely it has been calculated by someone at some stage.

It would be very interesting and helpful to compare

FrancieBrady

jimbobalob309 wrote: »

grasping at straws here mate. let it go. if a lad tries it on and gets shut down, its reasonable to assume he wont do it again because you told him not to and your grand to nip past him and grab your possessions on the way out. lest you be left with a gigantic headache to deal with in the morning when youre sans phone / wallet / keys. entirely reasonable. anything else youre suggesting is what's hysterical here

Well she actually walked willingly into a situation were he did try it again and she acquiesced or he raped her.
That was the what the jury had to decide on.

Faugheen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

You keep putting your penis/fingers/whatever in women's vaginas when they're asleep and see where it gets you so.

Where has it 'gotten' people whose partner woke up to enjoy it?

Any case histories?

Y

Him and his partner may well enjoy it.

Doesn't mean it's legal.

Just like some people enjoy smoking weed, it doesn't make it legal.

Some people get kicks out of randomly attacking people on the street. It doesn't mean it's legal

Fact of the matter is, if you perform a sex act on someone when they're asleep (and therefore not consenting), they could easily report you, and if you admit it to the guards, you will be found guilty in court and get yourself a criminal record.

Why?

Because it's sexual assault, or if you go further than that and stick your penis inside her when she is asleep, then that is rape.

Here's a case from March 2016, where a man was given a suspended prison sentence for raping and sexually assaulting his then girlfriend while she slept: https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/sleep-rape-case-man-given-15-monthsentence-for-raping-girlfriend-while-she-slept-following-undue-leniency-appeal-34542277.html

If you have a one night stand, don't perform a sex act on the woman the next morning while she is sleeping. Just trust me on this one. I'm doing you a favour here.

Faugheen

<SNIP>

The fact that some people here believe people are fair game when they're asleep and can't withdraw consent until they wake up shows that some people do need consent classes.

Giftini

The article mentions 567 rape cases but only gets a figure for 205 of them with defendants, what happened to the other 362? Not to mention, if you include those who pleaded guilty (73) which still leaves 289 unaccounted for, the conviction rate is 44% not 17%.

irishrebe

rafatoni wrote: »

I have just saw tweets from women in the US #ibelieveher and slating Irish men. My God.

Jay$us wept they will be saying Ireland is like the middle east next.

Very worrying this lynch mob is showing us up abroad.

You think a few college students with silly banners are showing us up abroad? I think those posting here calling any woman who recounts a sexual assault a liar and claiming it's grand to have sex with a sleeping person (and these are far from the most shocking remarks posted here) are doing a MUCH better job. I've sent the link to various friends around the world and every one of them is appalled. "Total lack of perspective", one friend said. Worrying about a few saps with banners and not about the fact people on this thread are arguing that a legally defined example of rape is grand.

Sardonicat

freshpopcorn wrote: »

In soaps/tv or in reality I have never seen people having a long or short discussion about having sex and what was normally to one another.
I have seen people say no tough or to stop and then sex either stopped or never happened in the first place.

Oh, you are basing your argument on soaps/t and what you've seen other couples do. Personally I've never been privy to anyone else's sexual encounters. I can speak from actual experience though.

Mrsmum

Raul Mysterious Revenge wrote: »

If you’re old enough to have sex, and have consented to sex then you’re old enough to use your words. If you consent, you have sex and at any point you want to call a halt to proceedings I believe the onus is on YOU as a grown adult to use your words and say no. He’s not a mind reader, you’re not a child (I hope). Take a little bit of responsibility

You're not getting my point which is that certain people seem to be saying enjoyable sex between two people is so obvious it doesn't need any little checks but in the next breath don't seem to know unless told loud & clear when they are the only one enjoying. Surely if willing participation is obvious, the opposite is obvious too to a partner who gave a damn. Personally I'm in the check as you go along brigade and agree or not as you go along too.

FrancieBrady

Faugheen wrote: »

Him and his partner may well enjoy it.

Doesn't mean it's legal.

Just like some people enjoy smoking weed, it doesn't make it legal.

Some people get kicks out of randomly attacking people on the street. It doesn't mean it's legal

Fact of the matter is, if you perform a sex act on someone when they're asleep (and therefore not consenting), they could easily report you, and if you admit it to the guards, you will be found guilty in court and get yourself a criminal record.

Why?

Because it's sexual assault, or if you go further than that and stick your penis inside her when she is asleep, then that is rape.

Here's a case from March 2016, where a man was given a suspended prison sentence for raping and sexually assaulting his then girlfriend while she slept: https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/sleep-rape-case-man-given-15-monthsentence-for-raping-girlfriend-while-she-slept-following-undue-leniency-appeal-34542277.html

If you have a one night stand, don't perform a sex act on the woman the next morning while she is sleeping. Just trust me on this one. I'm doing you a favour here.

And way way back the initial poster said his partner initiated it and when it woke him he had no objection

You were gonna show us case histories were somebody was done for 'sexual assault' in those circumstances.

You were the one insisting as a third party that it was an assault.

irishrebe

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Bambi985 wrote: »

To retrieve her bag as she wanted to go home.

"Most women I know wouldn't do that" my arse. Most women want their fcuking bag before they leave a stranger's house. And most women have been in this situation countless times, having their jeans opened or a hand into their knickers when they're hooking up with someone. Guys will try to move things towards sex often in these situations.

Saying "no" or "I don't want to have sex" or backing away and indicating by your body language that you're not into it signals to most average decent non-disgusting men that they should back off, now is not the time for that. 99.9% of the time this is the case. Most men get it loud and clear. You don't walk away feeling lucky to have escaped a predator rapist, you simply signalled your intentions and the situation has now passed.

And now you want to leave and need to get your bag. Which is in said fella's room, but you already told him loud and clear that sex wasn't on the cards so it's all good.

Honestly, you're making a mockery out of men here. Most men are not rapists and most men know that when their advances are rejected, it doesn't mean you should be more forceful next time. Can't believe I even have to type this out.

And that was the simple point, before the hysterics started, that this woman had already decided to leave the party because of Jackson's advances. But she went back into a situation were it was quite reasonable to believe a drunken man would try again. In my experience most women would not do that.
At no point did I suggest she was going back into a situation with a 'potential rapist'. (that was the hysterical add on by others to what I said)

You STILL don't get it despite the post you quoted clearly explaining it. Incredible.

Faugheen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

Him and his partner may well enjoy it.

Doesn't mean it's legal.

Just like some people enjoy smoking weed, it doesn't make it legal.

Some people get kicks out of randomly attacking people on the street. It doesn't mean it's legal

Fact of the matter is, if you perform a sex act on someone when they're asleep (and therefore not consenting), they could easily report you, and if you admit it to the guards, you will be found guilty in court and get yourself a criminal record.

Why?

Because it's sexual assault, or if you go further than that and stick your penis inside her when she is asleep, then that is rape.

Here's a case from March 2016, where a man was given a suspended prison sentence for raping and sexually assaulting his then girlfriend while she slept: https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/sleep-rape-case-man-given-15-monthsentence-for-raping-girlfriend-while-she-slept-following-undue-leniency-appeal-34542277.html

If you have a one night stand, don't perform a sex act on the woman the next morning while she is sleeping. Just trust me on this one. I'm doing you a favour here.

And way way back the initial poster said his partner initiated it and when it woke him he had no objection

You were gonna show us case histories were somebody was done for 'sexual assault' in those circumstances.

You were the one insisting as a third party that it was an assault.

You said earlier in the thread that nothing can be done until the person wakes up and says no.

Do you still believe this?

RuMan

Drunken Slob wrote: »

She sounds like a keeper

A fair few virgins and puritans on here who don't know what happens in the real world. Consent lessons! Jaysus, I know not to rape people!

Only men u'll get attending consent classes are the same type of men who would attend these marches. No self respecting woman would touch those men of course.

Rest of us are too busy having consensual sex to waste time talking about it.

Man + woman = pleasure.
Dont like it say stop
End of.

FrancieBrady

irishrebe wrote: »

You STILL don't get it despite the post you quoted clearly explaining it. Incredible.

You might get an insight into why the jury decided how they did if you look at it without the hysterical 'potential rapist' stuff.

freshpopcorn

irishrebe wrote: »

You think a few college students with silly banners are showing us up abroad? I think those posting here calling any woman who recounts a sexual assault a liar and claiming it's grand to have sex with a sleeping person (and these are far from the most shocking remarks posted here) are doing a MUCH better job. I've sent the link to various friends around the world and every one of them is appalled. "Total lack of perspective", one friend said. Worrying about a few saps with banners and not about the fact people on this thread are arguing that a legally defined example of rape is grand.

Did you friends abroad also study the case in the news for nine weeks or research the case in detail and research a decision similar to the jury had to or did they just follow the hash tag?
My aunt has similar views about men similar to the hashtag group This case case was discussed and myself and mother/family just agree away with her because it's less hassle.
When my aunt heard about this case back in January she made up her mind about these guys and it was never going to change.

spookwoman

Faugheen wrote: »

<SNIP>

The fact that some people here believe people are fair game when they're asleep and can't withdraw consent until they wake up shows that some people do need consent classes.

Using their line of thinking you could also say castrating them while they sleep is ok as well

Flipper22

irishrebe wrote: »

You think a few college students with silly banners are showing us up abroad? I think those posting here calling any woman who recounts a sexual assault a liar and claiming it's grand to have sex with a sleeping person (and these are far from the most shocking remarks posted here) are doing a MUCH better job. I've sent the link to various friends around the world and every one of them is appalled. "Total lack of perspective", one friend said. Worrying about a few saps with banners and not about the fact people on this thread are arguing that a legally defined example of rape is grand.

Calm down a bit.

Those with the ridiculous banners are morons.

Anyone who said that all women who give an account of a sexual assault are lying or that it's ok to have sex with a sleeping person (!!) is also a moron.

Better not to take morons of any persuasion too seriously!

FrancieBrady

Faugheen wrote: »

You said earlier in the thread that nothing can be done until the person wakes up and says no.

Do you still believe this?

Can you show were anybody was ever done for sexual assault in the circumstances the poster outlined or not?

rafatoni

irishrebe wrote: »

You think a few college students with silly banners are showing us up abroad? I think those posting here calling any woman who recounts a sexual assault a liar and claiming it's grand to have sex with a sleeping person (and these are far from the most shocking remarks posted here) are doing a MUCH better job. I've sent the link to various friends around the world and every one of them is appalled. "Total lack of perspective", one friend said. Worrying about a few saps with banners and not about the fact people on this thread are arguing that a legally defined example of rape is grand.

Im worried its showing up irish males in general which is unfair. Plus the incident didnt even happen here but folk in the US arent seeing that, it was in the UK but you go girl.

freshpopcorn

Sardonicat wrote: »

Oh, you are basing your argument on soaps/t and what you've seen other couples do. Personally I've never been privy to anyone else's sexual encounters. I can speak from actual experience though.

So can I speak from experience. Either from I have done or what I have seen friends doing.
I've being at house partied where couples had sex on the sofa/balcony sounded by people I didn't hear any discussion taking place but if somebody said no or stop it didn't go ahead and if a guy went to far or was pushy and other guys became aware of it he nearly got the crap kicked out of him.

Faugheen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

You said earlier in the thread that nothing can be done until the person wakes up and says no.

Do you still believe this?

Can you show were anybody was ever done for sexual assault in the circumstances the poster outlined or not?

I've already answered the question by saying him and his partner clearly enjoy it. Why would he report something he enjoyed? That's a stupid suggestion.

But in the eyes of the law, it's sexual assault. The same OP said that just because he liked it means there's nothing wrong with it. There absolutely is something wrong with it.

You can answer my question now, if you don't mind.

Silentcorner

<SNIP>
Ya communication can be difficult when drunk alright!!!

irishrebe

freshpopcorn wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

You think a few college students with silly banners are showing us up abroad? I think those posting here calling any woman who recounts a sexual assault a liar and claiming it's grand to have sex with a sleeping person (and these are far from the most shocking remarks posted here) are doing a MUCH better job. I've sent the link to various friends around the world and every one of them is appalled. "Total lack of perspective", one friend said. Worrying about a few saps with banners and not about the fact people on this thread are arguing that a legally defined example of rape is grand.

Did you friends abroad also study the case in the news for nine weeks or research the case in detail and research a decision similar to the jury had to or did they just follow the hash tag?
My aunt has similar views about men similar to the hashtag group  This case case was discussed and myself and mother/family just agree away with her because it's less hassle.
When my aunt heard about this case back in January she made up her mind about these guys and it was never going to change.

They have read all the press coverage. They know of the hashtag, but they haven't followed it at all. They have been following this thread, though and are in total disbelief.  I honestly don't think most people posting here have any idea how truly sickening and controversial many of these viewpoints are. Yous are truly deluded if you think the muppets with silly signs are the problem here.

FrancieBrady

Faugheen wrote: »

I've already answered the question by saying him and his partner clearly enjoy it. Why would he report something he enjoyed? That's a stupid suggestion.

But in the eyes of the law, it's sexual assault. The same OP said that just because he liked it means there's nothing wrong with it. There absolutely is something wrong with it.

You can answer my question now, if you don't mind.

So there is no problem then.

My point from the start. :rolleyes:

Silentcorner

<SNIP>

When the men that should be there are typically the sweaty glass eyed alcohol smelling legends!!

irishrebe

rafatoni wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

You think a few college students with silly banners are showing us up abroad? I think those posting here calling any woman who recounts a sexual assault a liar and claiming it's grand to have sex with a sleeping person (and these are far from the most shocking remarks posted here) are doing a MUCH better job. I've sent the link to various friends around the world and every one of them is appalled. "Total lack of perspective", one friend said. Worrying about a few saps with banners and not about the fact people on this thread are arguing that a legally defined example of rape is grand.

Im worried its showing up irish males in general which is unfair. Plus the incident didnt even happen here but folk in the US arent seeing that, it was in the UK but you go girl.

How are a few muppets with banners 'showing up Irish males in general?' Yes, we all know it happened in Northern Ireland, well done you for remembering that. The protests are happening in Ireland, the hashtag started in Ireland and Boards.ie is an Irish website.