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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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Comments

  • #5282
    djPSB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭djPSB


    Strazdas wrote: »
    That may well be the case with the majority of people, but the Belfast case was very different in that it started out with two people alone in a bedroom and then other men started arriving in the room completely uninvited.

    If the woman had been making an accusation against Paddy Jackson alone, we would have seen a very different type of court case and a far less sensational one. Much of the eye catching elements of the story is that it involved four defendants (two high profile) and they were subsequently bragging about their sexual exploits to each other etc.

    The woman left the room at one stage. Then returned to the room to get her bag. If she thought she was in any danger, why would she return to the room.


  • #5283
    hill16bhoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭hill16bhoy


    RuMan wrote: »
    I have passed out and woken up having oral sex performed on me.
    Did the woman seek consent ? No
    Did i consider it assault? Absolutely not, we went to bed for one reason only.
    Some of the prudish comnentry makes me wonder what planet people are living in.

    That's lucky for you that you didn't feel you were being violated.

    What if, in a hypothetical situation, you had decided to insert your penis into her vagina while she was asleep, and she had woken up during this?

    If she objected, would you have called her "prudish"?

    Would you have still been saying "but we went to bed for one reason only"?


  • #5284
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    djPSB wrote: »
    The woman left the room at one stage. Then returned to the room to get her bag. If she thought she was in any danger, why would she return to the room.

    The alleged incident happened after she returned to the room to get her bag.


  • #5285
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,498 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    djPSB wrote: »
    The woman left the room at one stage. Then returned to the room to get her bag. If she thought she was in any danger, why would she return to the room.

    I believe she said that was before any sexual activity. She had been kissing PJ in the bedroom but then decided to call it a night : went downstairs but realised she had left her bag in the bedroom and went back up to get it. I think she said PJ followed her back up and then pounced on her.


  • #5286
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,580 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    RuMan wrote: »
    Spent most of my late teens and early 20's going out gettting pissed, off my face and having sex with women in a similar state. Most people i know were the same.
    In all cases while sex was consensual never once did i seek consent nor indeed did the woman.
    I have passed out and woken up having oral sex performed on me.
    Did the woman seek consent ? No
    Did i consider it assault? Absolutely not, we went to bed for one reason only.
    Some of the prudish comnentry makes me wonder what planet people are living in.

    This is the problem with consent. Most interactions are nonverbal and it would not be considered particularly sexy if you stopped every five minutes and ask “you still sure?”.


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  • #5287
    Cyrus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,938 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    RabbleRouser2k wrote: »
    Silly Wabbit-no they weren't.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Brian_Murphy

    Any and all convictions were overturned on appeal. Nobody went to prison. (Only one person was ever convicted of anything-and he had it overturned the following year, on appeal).

    And in that case, the hatred was deserved (the Brian Murphy case I mean). No convictions, a collusion regarding evidence-and some of them can be found on facebook.

    Therw were people found guilty at the first trial when all the public interest was on it and laide spent time in jail , check your sources

    Should they not be on Facebook?

    Again this fascination with the middle class male is baffling

    The Anabel case was just another night club row the likes that happen up and down the country every night except this one had a tragic ending

    What this has to do with the Belfast no rape trial I'm not sure exempt to highlight your fascination with middle class men


  • #5288
    manonboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭manonboard


    irishrebe wrote: »
    Can you?

    I was surprised to find out a few of my female friends have this attitude against explicit consent in the heat of moments etc.

    Some of them had the view that it turned them off. Which is of course true. The reason seemed to be that they thought it hot when the guy/girl is confident enough to read the situation and decide for themselves.

    I like the idea of explicit consent, though its supported by the communities i am involved in. For many sections of society, that language usage is considered unsexy and so is both discouraged through 'non reward' of not having sex etc.


  • #5289
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    RuMan wrote: »
    Spent most of my late teens and early 20's going out gettting pissed, off my face and having sex with women in a similar state. Most people i know were the same.
    In all cases while sex was consensual never once did i seek consent nor indeed did the woman.
    I have passed out and woken up having oral sex performed on me.
    Did the woman seek consent ? No
    Did i consider it assault? Absolutely not, we went to bed for one reason only.
    Some of the prudish comnentry makes me wonder what planet people are living in.

    Yep, let's stop everything. The Law of RuMan has spoken.

    He woke up being sexually assaulted without consent, but because he didn't consider it to be assault then nobody else should.

    Jesus Christ I spare for some people


  • #5290
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Faugheen wrote: »
    So you're saying that a man doesn't have to seek consent?

    That's a very rapey statement if I ever heard one, if that's the case

    Never had a woman ask me can she suck me off , happened plenty of times though


  • #5291
    Rodin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    BBDBB wrote: »
    surely it's "may I f**k you, please?"

    An bhfuil cead agam....


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  • #5292
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Another legend I see...

    What prudish commentary....

    The faux outrage over the messages. Have heard women say far worse on numerous occasions


  • #5293
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 32,956 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Faugheen wrote: »
    So you're saying that a man doesn't have to seek consent?

    That's a very rapey statement if I ever heard one, if that's the case

    In general? Seek it? Why just the man? Look, things just happen in normal circumstances. Most one nighters are a case of “wanna come back to mine?”. It’s implied a lot. Outright asking the question isn’t always the done thing when both of you are are getting hot and heavy. It’s just how it is more often than not, in my experiences anyway. Body language can often be a way of communicating things. It’s not always black and white. You might say it’s shades of grey, pardon the pun.


  • #5294
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    djPSB wrote: »
    The woman left the room at one stage. Then returned to the room to get her bag. If she thought she was in any danger, why would she return to the room.

    She had been kissing Jackson upstairs, then went back downstairs. When she decided to leave she had to get hammer bag from his room, which is when the alleged rape took place.


  • #5295
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 32,956 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RuMan wrote: »
    Never had a woman ask me can she suck me off , happened plenty of times though

    That’s cuz you’re a top shagger.


  • #5296
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Yep, let's stop everything. The Law of RuMan has spoken.

    He woke up being sexually assaulted without consent, but because he didn't consider it to be assault then nobody else should.

    Jesus Christ I spare for some people

    Lol you've decided i was sexually assaulted even though i say i wasnt. A mutually enjoyable experience, some non involved prude has taken offense on my behalf.


  • #5297
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,892 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Strazdas wrote: »
    I believe she said that was before any sexual activity. She had been kissing PJ in the bedroom but then decided to call it a night : went downstairs but realised she had left her bag in the bedroom and went back up to get it. I think she said PJ followed her back up and then pounced on her.

    He initially tried to open her jeans. It was quite clear where he was going. But she still went back up to the room.

    That in no way implies she was asking for it, or that it gave Jackson rights, but it does rule out any sign of a threatening situation developing over it, you don't re-enter a place where there is danger present, after all. And the jury seems to have assessed it like that as well.


  • #5298
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    That is just not true. It totally shows you think if she isn't struggling, it is consensual and that is a discredited viewpoint nowadays.

    Except that's not what I said, at all. I said:
    The pivotal piece of evidence from Dara is that she established it was quite consensual and she was witness for a considerable period of time to assert this opinion.

    That's not discounting that she could have possibly gotten that wrong for a variety of reasons, but the balance of probability is heavily on her side.

    Everyone was drunk, she was sober, and bore witness to this, as a woman, for 'less than a minute' I think she said?

    She was there for quite some time, completely sober, she didn't just take a quick look and close the door behind her.

    She actually took in what she was seeing and she decided that it was consensual.

    At no point whatsoever did I allude to a woman needing to scream or struggle or shout to establish she's being raped.

    In this particular case, the evidence is quite compelling that she was was participating willingly.

    How you can arrive at a point where I believe that if a woman isn't screaming or shouting she's not being raped is beyond me.


  • #5299
    The Talking Bread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭The Talking Bread


    RuMan wrote: »
    Spent most of my late teens and early 20's going out gettting pissed, off my face and having sex with women in a similar state. Most people i know were the same.
    In all cases while sex was consensual never once did i seek consent nor indeed did the woman.
    I have passed out and woken up having oral sex performed on me.
    Did the woman seek consent ? No
    Did i consider it assault? Absolutely not, we went to bed for one reason only.
    Some of the prudish comnentry makes me wonder what planet people are living in.

    Are you seriously suggesting that if a woman went to bed with you but fell asleep and she woke up and you were performing some sort of sexual act on her while she was effectively unconscious, you think it is prudish that people don't think that is normal behaviour, never mind it being the most clear account of sexual assault you could suggest!

    Just because she decided she freely went to bed with you initially?

    I am far from a prude, in fact far from it, but that is a very disturbing line of logic, mate that could get you in trouble eventually


  • #5300
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    This is the problem with consent. Most interactions are nonverbal and it would not be considered particularly sexy if you stopped every five minutes and ask “you still sure?”.

    You’ve never heard of someone saying ‘Do you like that? Does that feel good?’ while having sex?


  • #5301
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Omackeral wrote: »
    In general? Seek it? Why just the man? Look, things just happen in normal circumstances. Most one nighters are a case of “wanna come back to mine?”. It’s implied a lot. Outright asking the question isn’t always the done thing when both of you are are getting hot and heavy. It’s just how it is more often than not, in my experiences anyway. Body language can often be a way of communicating things. It’s not always black and white. You might say it’s shades of grey, pardon the pun.

    Because the OP was referring to men. Of course consent applies both ways.

    Why are you using whataboutery instead the real issue that the OP made a very concerning statement that nobody is legally obligated to seek consent?


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  • #5302
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Omackeral wrote: »
    In general? Seek it? Why just the man? Look, things just happen in normal circumstances. Most one nighters are a case of “wanna come back to mine?”. It’s implied a lot. Outright asking the question isn’t always the done thing when both of you are are getting hot and heavy. It’s just how it is more often than not, in my experiences anyway. Body language can often be a way of communicating things. It’s not always black and white. You might say it’s shades of grey, pardon the pun.

    Both of you getting hot and heavy is the clue though. Body language is a perfectly fine language so she may be rubbing your back or pulling you in closer etc but if she is just lying there, you might have a problem guys.


  • #5303
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Omackeral wrote: »
    That’s cuz you’re a top shagger.

    No i'm a man and she was a woman. We both have sexual desires and took steps to satisfy it. Enjoyable for both , now run along to ur march and hope so woman might give u a charity shag. Lets be honest they'll all like to marry Simon the rugby playing successful businessman


  • #5304
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    RuMan wrote: »
    Lol you've decided i was sexually assaulted even though i say i wasnt. A mutually enjoyable experience, some non involved prude has taken offense on my behalf.

    But you were.

    A woman committed a sex act on you without your consent since you were sleeping.

    That is sexual assault.


  • #5305
    manonboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭manonboard


    Omackeral wrote: »
    In general? Seek it? Why just the man? Look, things just happen in normal circumstances. Most one nighters are a case of “wanna come back to mine?”. It’s implied a lot. Outright asking the question isn’t always the done thing when both of you are are getting hot and heavy. It’s just how it is more often than not, in my experiences anyway. Body language can often be a way of communicating things. It’s not always black and white. You might say it’s shades of grey, pardon the pun.

    Agreed. There are million different ways these things are communicated.
    Kissing on the dancefloor, then asking if you wish to come home to mine tonight? It's not really a offer of sleeping location and a cup of tea.
    It's pretty much always for sexual intercourse.

    When home, if you ask if someone wants to continue drinking even though it's 3am in the morning. It's pretty much always so you can both keep your inhibitions low and comfortable so you feel comfortable as people tend to get nervous.

    When making out on the couch and things get heavy, asking "Would you like to move into the bedroom?" Isnt because you suddenly felt tired, it's asking if you would like to move our hot/heavy sexual urges into the room/bed which is far more comfortable for further sex.

    These things are culturally acceptable ways of asking consent without ever having to get into the pretty unsexy nitty gritty of "so what is sex to you? How would you like to do it? Would you? How often should we check in? What is penetration and where is it ok? What sort of sex do you want?" being asked both ways.


  • #5306
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    kylith wrote: »
    You’ve never heard of someone saying ‘Do you like that? Does that feel good?’ while having sex?

    Because usually they're trying to ensure they're pleasing their partner, not consciously seeking that confirmation of consent remain in place....

    Being realistic, most people don't seek continual verbal confirmation, mutual body language and a lick of common sense is usually enough.


  • #5307
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,892 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Both of you getting hot and heavy is the clue though. Body language is a perfectly fine language so she may be rubbing your back or pulling you in closer etc but if she is just lying there, you might have a problem guys.

    And the only independent witness here assessed the body language as saying what?


  • #5308
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    This is the problem with consent. Most interactions are nonverbal and it would not be considered particularly sexy if you stopped every five minutes and ask “you still sure?”.

    You've never heard of nonverbal communication?

    You don't have to ask: if you can't tell whether or not the woman you're having sex is enjoying it or not by the act itself, you're not as good at it as you think you are.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #5309
    irishrebe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Strazdas wrote: »
    I believe she said that was before any sexual activity. She had been kissing PJ in the bedroom but then decided to call it a night : went downstairs but realised she had left her bag in the bedroom and went back up to get it. I think she said PJ followed her back up and then pounced on her.

    He initially tried to open her jeans. It was quite clear where he was going. But she still went back up to the room.

    That in no way implies she was asking for it, or that it gave Jackson rights, but it does rule out any sign of a threatening situation developing over it, you don't re-enter a place where there is danger present, after all. And the jury seems to have assessed it like that as well.
    She went back to get her bag. Are you seriously saying she should have left the house without her phone, house keys and wallet? That if a man tries open your jeans during kissing, you should interpret him so much of a danger, that you'd leave a stranger's house in the middle of the night with no way to get home? You're doing a better job of demonising men here than any 'green haired feminist snowflake' could.


  • #5310
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,892 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Faugheen wrote: »
    But you were.

    A woman committed a sex act on you without your consent since you were sleeping.

    That is sexual assault.

    You are deciding it is assault when he doesn't? :confused::confused::confused:


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  • #5311
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    The Talking Bread wrote: »
    Are you seriously suggesting that if a woman went to bed with you but fell asleep and she woke up and you were performing some sort of sexual act on her while she was effectively unconscious, you think it is prudish that people don't think that is normal behaviour, never mind it being the most clear account of sexual assault you could suggest!

    Just because she decided she freely went to bed with you initially?

    I am far from a prude, in fact far from it, but that is a very disturbing line of logic, mate that could get you in trouble eventually

    Ur probably right which is why i'm thankful i'm not 15 years younger. People trying to rewrite the laws of nature because they cant get any themselves.
    Men love sex, women love sex all the consent classes in the world wont alter that


This discussion has been closed.
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