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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Sam Quentin

Strange.. I'm kinda relieved it's all over.

http://www.thejournal.ie/belfast-rape-trial-verdict-3928309-Mar2018/

Mod Note Keep this relevant to this thread and don't bring up others. ie the eighth amendment thread.

MOD NOTE By the way don't post anything from members on the jury that's appearing online.

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djPSB

Strazdas wrote: »

That may well be the case with the majority of people, but the Belfast case was very different in that it started out with two people alone in a bedroom and then other men started arriving in the room completely uninvited.

If the woman had been making an accusation against Paddy Jackson alone, we would have seen a very different type of court case and a far less sensational one. Much of the eye catching elements of the story is that it involved four defendants (two high profile) and they were subsequently bragging about their sexual exploits to each other etc.

The woman left the room at one stage. Then returned to the room to get her bag. If she thought she was in any danger, why would she return to the room.

hill16bhoy

RuMan wrote: »

I have passed out and woken up having oral sex performed on me.
Did the woman seek consent ? No
Did i consider it assault? Absolutely not, we went to bed for one reason only.
Some of the prudish comnentry makes me wonder what planet people are living in.

That's lucky for you that you didn't feel you were being violated.

What if, in a hypothetical situation, you had decided to insert your penis into her vagina while she was asleep, and she had woken up during this?

If she objected, would you have called her "prudish"?

Would you have still been saying "but we went to bed for one reason only"?

Faugheen

djPSB wrote: »

The woman left the room at one stage. Then returned to the room to get her bag. If she thought she was in any danger, why would she return to the room.

The alleged incident happened after she returned to the room to get her bag.

Strazdas

djPSB wrote: »

The woman left the room at one stage. Then returned to the room to get her bag. If she thought she was in any danger, why would she return to the room.

I believe she said that was before any sexual activity. She had been kissing PJ in the bedroom but then decided to call it a night : went downstairs but realised she had left her bag in the bedroom and went back up to get it. I think she said PJ followed her back up and then pounced on her.

Potatoeman

RuMan wrote: »

Spent most of my late teens and early 20's going out gettting pissed, off my face and having sex with women in a similar state. Most people i know were the same.
In all cases while sex was consensual never once did i seek consent nor indeed did the woman.
I have passed out and woken up having oral sex performed on me.
Did the woman seek consent ? No
Did i consider it assault? Absolutely not, we went to bed for one reason only.
Some of the prudish comnentry makes me wonder what planet people are living in.

This is the problem with consent. Most interactions are nonverbal and it would not be considered particularly sexy if you stopped every five minutes and ask “you still sure?”.

Cyrus

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Silly Wabbit-no they weren't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Brian_Murphy

Any and all convictions were overturned on appeal. Nobody went to prison. (Only one person was ever convicted of anything-and he had it overturned the following year, on appeal).

And in that case, the hatred was deserved (the Brian Murphy case I mean). No convictions, a collusion regarding evidence-and some of them can be found on facebook.

Therw were people found guilty at the first trial when all the public interest was on it and laide spent time in jail , check your sources

Should they not be on Facebook?

Again this fascination with the middle class male is baffling

The Anabel case was just another night club row the likes that happen up and down the country every night except this one had a tragic ending

What this has to do with the Belfast no rape trial I'm not sure exempt to highlight your fascination with middle class men

manonboard

irishrebe wrote: »

Can you?

I was surprised to find out a few of my female friends have this attitude against explicit consent in the heat of moments etc.

Some of them had the view that it turned them off. Which is of course true. The reason seemed to be that they thought it hot when the guy/girl is confident enough to read the situation and decide for themselves.

I like the idea of explicit consent, though its supported by the communities i am involved in. For many sections of society, that language usage is considered unsexy and so is both discouraged through 'non reward' of not having sex etc.

Faugheen

RuMan wrote: »

Spent most of my late teens and early 20's going out gettting pissed, off my face and having sex with women in a similar state. Most people i know were the same.
In all cases while sex was consensual never once did i seek consent nor indeed did the woman.
I have passed out and woken up having oral sex performed on me.
Did the woman seek consent ? No
Did i consider it assault? Absolutely not, we went to bed for one reason only.
Some of the prudish comnentry makes me wonder what planet people are living in.

Yep, let's stop everything. The Law of RuMan has spoken.

He woke up being sexually assaulted without consent, but because he didn't consider it to be assault then nobody else should.

Jesus Christ I spare for some people

RuMan

Faugheen wrote: »

So you're saying that a man doesn't have to seek consent?

That's a very rapey statement if I ever heard one, if that's the case

Never had a woman ask me can she suck me off , happened plenty of times though

Rodin

BBDBB wrote: »

surely it's "may I f**k you, please?"

An bhfuil cead agam....

RuMan

Silentcorner wrote: »

Another legend I see...

What prudish commentary....

The faux outrage over the messages. Have heard women say far worse on numerous occasions

[Deleted User]

Faugheen wrote: »

So you're saying that a man doesn't have to seek consent?

That's a very rapey statement if I ever heard one, if that's the case

In general? Seek it? Why just the man? Look, things just happen in normal circumstances. Most one nighters are a case of “wanna come back to mine?”. It’s implied a lot. Outright asking the question isn’t always the done thing when both of you are are getting hot and heavy. It’s just how it is more often than not, in my experiences anyway. Body language can often be a way of communicating things. It’s not always black and white. You might say it’s shades of grey, pardon the pun.

kylith

djPSB wrote: »

The woman left the room at one stage. Then returned to the room to get her bag. If she thought she was in any danger, why would she return to the room.

She had been kissing Jackson upstairs, then went back downstairs. When she decided to leave she had to get hammer bag from his room, which is when the alleged rape took place.

[Deleted User]

RuMan wrote: »

Never had a woman ask me can she suck me off , happened plenty of times though

That’s cuz you’re a top shagger.

RuMan

Faugheen wrote: »

Yep, let's stop everything. The Law of RuMan has spoken.

He woke up being sexually assaulted without consent, but because he didn't consider it to be assault then nobody else should.

Jesus Christ I spare for some people

Lol you've decided i was sexually assaulted even though i say i wasnt. A mutually enjoyable experience, some non involved prude has taken offense on my behalf.

FrancieBrady

Strazdas wrote: »

I believe she said that was before any sexual activity. She had been kissing PJ in the bedroom but then decided to call it a night : went downstairs but realised she had left her bag in the bedroom and went back up to get it. I think she said PJ followed her back up and then pounced on her.

He initially tried to open her jeans. It was quite clear where he was going. But she still went back up to the room.

That in no way implies she was asking for it, or that it gave Jackson rights, but it does rule out any sign of a threatening situation developing over it, you don't re-enter a place where there is danger present, after all. And the jury seems to have assessed it like that as well.

TerrorFirmer

Mrsmum wrote: »

That is just not true. It totally shows you think if she isn't struggling, it is consensual and that is a discredited viewpoint nowadays.

Except that's not what I said, at all. I said:

The pivotal piece of evidence from Dara is that she established it was quite consensual and she was witness for a considerable period of time to assert this opinion.

That's not discounting that she could have possibly gotten that wrong for a variety of reasons, but the balance of probability is heavily on her side.

Everyone was drunk, she was sober, and bore witness to this, as a woman, for 'less than a minute' I think she said?

She was there for quite some time, completely sober, she didn't just take a quick look and close the door behind her.

She actually took in what she was seeing and she decided that it was consensual.

At no point whatsoever did I allude to a woman needing to scream or struggle or shout to establish she's being raped.

In this particular case, the evidence is quite compelling that she was was participating willingly.

How you can arrive at a point where I believe that if a woman isn't screaming or shouting she's not being raped is beyond me.

The Talking Bread

RuMan wrote: »

Spent most of my late teens and early 20's going out gettting pissed, off my face and having sex with women in a similar state. Most people i know were the same.
In all cases while sex was consensual never once did i seek consent nor indeed did the woman.
I have passed out and woken up having oral sex performed on me.
Did the woman seek consent ? No
Did i consider it assault? Absolutely not, we went to bed for one reason only.
Some of the prudish comnentry makes me wonder what planet people are living in.

Are you seriously suggesting that if a woman went to bed with you but fell asleep and she woke up and you were performing some sort of sexual act on her while she was effectively unconscious, you think it is prudish that people don't think that is normal behaviour, never mind it being the most clear account of sexual assault you could suggest!

Just because she decided she freely went to bed with you initially?

I am far from a prude, in fact far from it, but that is a very disturbing line of logic, mate that could get you in trouble eventually

kylith

Potatoeman wrote: »

This is the problem with consent. Most interactions are nonverbal and it would not be considered particularly sexy if you stopped every five minutes and ask “you still sure?”.

You’ve never heard of someone saying ‘Do you like that? Does that feel good?’ while having sex?

Faugheen

Omackeral wrote: »

In general? Seek it? Why just the man? Look, things just happen in normal circumstances. Most one nighters are a case of “wanna come back to mine?”. It’s implied a lot. Outright asking the question isn’t always the done thing when both of you are are getting hot and heavy. It’s just how it is more often than not, in my experiences anyway. Body language can often be a way of communicating things. It’s not always black and white. You might say it’s shades of grey, pardon the pun.

Because the OP was referring to men. Of course consent applies both ways.

Why are you using whataboutery instead the real issue that the OP made a very concerning statement that nobody is legally obligated to seek consent?

Mrsmum

Omackeral wrote: »

In general? Seek it? Why just the man? Look, things just happen in normal circumstances. Most one nighters are a case of “wanna come back to mine?”. It’s implied a lot. Outright asking the question isn’t always the done thing when both of you are are getting hot and heavy. It’s just how it is more often than not, in my experiences anyway. Body language can often be a way of communicating things. It’s not always black and white. You might say it’s shades of grey, pardon the pun.

Both of you getting hot and heavy is the clue though. Body language is a perfectly fine language so she may be rubbing your back or pulling you in closer etc but if she is just lying there, you might have a problem guys.

RuMan

Omackeral wrote: »

That’s cuz you’re a top shagger.

No i'm a man and she was a woman. We both have sexual desires and took steps to satisfy it. Enjoyable for both , now run along to ur march and hope so woman might give u a charity shag. Lets be honest they'll all like to marry Simon the rugby playing successful businessman

Faugheen

RuMan wrote: »

Lol you've decided i was sexually assaulted even though i say i wasnt. A mutually enjoyable experience, some non involved prude has taken offense on my behalf.

But you were.

A woman committed a sex act on you without your consent since you were sleeping.

That is sexual assault.

manonboard

Omackeral wrote: »

In general? Seek it? Why just the man? Look, things just happen in normal circumstances. Most one nighters are a case of “wanna come back to mine?”. It’s implied a lot. Outright asking the question isn’t always the done thing when both of you are are getting hot and heavy. It’s just how it is more often than not, in my experiences anyway. Body language can often be a way of communicating things. It’s not always black and white. You might say it’s shades of grey, pardon the pun.

Agreed. There are million different ways these things are communicated.
Kissing on the dancefloor, then asking if you wish to come home to mine tonight? It's not really a offer of sleeping location and a cup of tea.
It's pretty much always for sexual intercourse.

When home, if you ask if someone wants to continue drinking even though it's 3am in the morning. It's pretty much always so you can both keep your inhibitions low and comfortable so you feel comfortable as people tend to get nervous.

When making out on the couch and things get heavy, asking "Would you like to move into the bedroom?" Isnt because you suddenly felt tired, it's asking if you would like to move our hot/heavy sexual urges into the room/bed which is far more comfortable for further sex.

These things are culturally acceptable ways of asking consent without ever having to get into the pretty unsexy nitty gritty of "so what is sex to you? How would you like to do it? Would you? How often should we check in? What is penetration and where is it ok? What sort of sex do you want?" being asked both ways.

TerrorFirmer

kylith wrote: »

You’ve never heard of someone saying ‘Do you like that? Does that feel good?’ while having sex?

Because usually they're trying to ensure they're pleasing their partner, not consciously seeking that confirmation of consent remain in place....

Being realistic, most people don't seek continual verbal confirmation, mutual body language and a lick of common sense is usually enough.

FrancieBrady

Mrsmum wrote: »

Both of you getting hot and heavy is the clue though. Body language is a perfectly fine language so she may be rubbing your back or pulling you in closer etc but if she is just lying there, you might have a problem guys.

And the only independent witness here assessed the body language as saying what?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Potatoeman wrote: »

This is the problem with consent. Most interactions are nonverbal and it would not be considered particularly sexy if you stopped every five minutes and ask “you still sure?”.

You've never heard of nonverbal communication?

You don't have to ask: if you can't tell whether or not the woman you're having sex is enjoying it or not by the act itself, you're not as good at it as you think you are.

irishrebe

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Strazdas wrote: »

I believe she said that was before any sexual activity. She had been kissing PJ in the bedroom but then decided to call it a night : went downstairs but realised she had left her bag in the bedroom and went back up to get it. I think she said PJ followed her back up and then pounced on her.

He initially tried to open her jeans. It was quite clear where he was going. But she still went back up to the room.

That in no way implies she was asking for it, or that it gave Jackson rights, but it does rule out any sign of a threatening situation developing over it, you don't re-enter a place where there is danger present, after all. And the jury seems to have assessed it like that as well.

She went back to get her bag. Are you seriously saying she should have left the house without her phone, house keys and wallet? That if a man tries open your jeans during kissing, you should interpret him so much of a danger, that you'd leave a stranger's house in the middle of the night with no way to get home? You're doing a better job of demonising men here than any 'green haired feminist snowflake' could.

FrancieBrady

Faugheen wrote: »

But you were.

A woman committed a sex act on you without your consent since you were sleeping.

That is sexual assault.

You are deciding it is assault when he doesn't?

RuMan

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that if a woman went to bed with you but fell asleep and she woke up and you were performing some sort of sexual act on her while she was effectively unconscious, you think it is prudish that people don't think that is normal behaviour, never mind it being the most clear account of sexual assault you could suggest!

Just because she decided she freely went to bed with you initially?

I am far from a prude, in fact far from it, but that is a very disturbing line of logic, mate that could get you in trouble eventually

Ur probably right which is why i'm thankful i'm not 15 years younger. People trying to rewrite the laws of nature because they cant get any themselves.
Men love sex, women love sex all the consent classes in the world wont alter that