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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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Comments

  • #5192
    homerjay2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    FrancieBrady wrote: »

    Dara's evidence said that there was no signs that she was being restrained against her will or by force and that to her, it looked consensual.


    didnt her evidence also contradict that of the lads? it appears that one part of her evidence was believed but the 2nd part wasnt.


  • #5193
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    To be honest, when faced with any kind of violent action against them, noone really knows what they are going to do.

    Men tend to get into risky situations more than women, and so are more familiar with their own response.

    But freezing absolutely happens. It's nature. You hear people say it all the time, "Then he stuck a gun in my back, and I froze."

    To discount freezing is daft.

    What is present here ^ that is absent from the evidence presented in the court...a physical threat to the woman.

    I can find no research that shows 'TI' occurs from penetrative sex alone which is what was suggested earlier.

    Dara's evidence said that there was no signs that she was being restrained against her will or by force and that to her, it looked consensual.

    Dara Florence also said that there were no signs that the complainant was positively consenting, either.

    You going to ignore that piece of information?


  • #5194
    py2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,845 ✭✭✭py2006


    irishrebe wrote: »
    I'd say your head would spin if you had even the slightest idea of how many women have been sexually harassed and assaulted in their lives. I suppose you think the Me Too hashtag was just a way to attack men? Get attention? Rather than actually believing it could be true? This attitude is part of the problem. No matter how many times and in how many ways we try to explain our experiences, we're shut down and silenced by people accusing us of lying. The fact so many people refused to believe that grown men would sexually harass a minor was mind-blowing to me. People acting as if it was just so far fetched it couldn't possibly be true. Part of the problem. 

    You're head would come right off your shoulders if you knew how many men had similar stories.

    Try being a man in today's society! Try being a man reporting inappropriate behaviour or comments from women.


  • #5195
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    tretorn wrote: »
    You are making stuff up, you refer to bruising, bleeding, trauma.

    Two experts in examining rape victims reported no evidence of non consensual sex, they saw a 1cm tear in the womans vagina and nothing else. No evidence of bruising or any other internal injuries.

    You know better than the jury and now you know better than trained forensic professionals who work exclusively with alleged rape victims.

    I am not making stuff up....

    Everything I have mentioned was presented in court...my interpretation differs from yours...the Prosecutions interpretation differed from the jurys...it happens...don't get too hot and bothered by it...


  • #5196
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,927 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    meeeeh wrote: »
    And tell me what would the evidence be? Do you think there is evidence of every reaction we made. If dog scares me in the woods and nobody sees it or hears me, does that mean it didn't happen? Explanation she froze is completely possible It's just that rape wasn't proven. The whole thing is not exactly hard to understand.

    Evidence that she was restrained, forced.

    The evidence points to the fact that she twice went upstairs voluntarily. The evidence from the one non participating witness is that she did not see anything that suggested force or restraint.

    Yes, it is possible she froze, but those tasked with assessing that found no evidence that she was...i.e. they would have found the men guilty if there was.


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  • #5197
    johnpatrick81
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭johnpatrick81


    His lawyer lost the run of himself after they were failed to be proven guilty. If Jackson had made a similar statement to the other lad, which basically apologized to the victim for hurting her unknowingly or not, then all the anger would be directed at the judicial system.

    The fact he waged war on anyone in twitter or hilariously whatsapp means he’s just made himself the most hated man in Ireland. Thousands chanting “sue me Paddy” around the country yesterday. He’ll surely emigrate.


  • #5198
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Funny, but men are more likely to convict in rape trials...
    What are we having a problem understanding?
    Are we over reliant on facts and evidence?

    We are having a problem understanding how a victim reacts in a rape/sexual assault incident...I thought that was clear...


  • #5199
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Evidence that she was restrained, forced.

    The evidence points to the fact that she twice went upstairs voluntarily. The evidence from the one non participating witness is that she did not see anything that suggested force or restraint.

    Yes, it is possible she froze, but those tasked with assessing that found no evidence that she was...i.e. they would have found the men guilty if there was.
    Now you are assuming what jury would or wouldn't do.

    Btw you could do with a bit of reading...
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/06/23/why-many-rape-victims-dont-fight-or-yell/?utm_term=.2068aef2abe8

    Btw the same witness also claims PJ had sex with accuser which he denies. So who do you believe there.


  • #5200
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,927 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Dara Florence also said that there were no signs that the complainant was positively consenting, either.

    You going to ignore that piece of information?

    No,I haven't, why would I ignore it?

    Dara Florence gave her opinion of what she saw and interpreted as consensual sex.


  • #5201
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    We are having a problem understanding how a victim reacts in a rape/sexual assault incident...I thought that was clear...


    Yet men are more likeky to convict the defendant...
    How does that square your circle ?
    Why do men need pre rape trial training to help them understand?


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  • #5202
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    upandcumming wrote: »
    Any link to the image please?

    https://twitter.com/WSMIreland/status/980090207012818947


  • #5203
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    irishrebe wrote: »
    In terms of listening to people who claim they were assaulted? No, no it hasn't.

    To be honest, we don't. There's an awful lot more that could be done in that regard.

    However.

    More now than ever before, people require proof. People claim stuff all the time. The very first thing you are taught to ask for is a source or evidence. And it sucks for people that aren't believed, because they have no evidence.


  • #5204
    Heres Johnny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭Heres Johnny


    Can I ask a question and get some logical well thought out responses please?

    The trial is over. There was a not guilty verdict given due to conflicting evidence and lack of evidence. Nobody really knows what went on in the room, perhaps not even some that were there due to the amount of alcohol involved. Now there's a baying mob all over the internet and on the streets attacking men, attacking sportsmen, the legal system and attacking rugby.

    So my question is, what do you want courts to do in these situations where the evidence isn't sufficient to convict? Do you want benefit of doubt to be given to the accuser? Take rape cases solely out of the equation and think of all crimes. Rape brings out emotion and a gender battle.

    Do you want it to be guilty until proven innocent?
    Honest question, justice system looked at it and said not guilty so I don't know what more ye want.


  • #5205
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,927 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Now you are assuming what jury would or wouldn't do.

    Btw you could do with a bit of reading...
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/06/23/why-many-rape-victims-dont-fight-or-yell/?utm_term=.2068aef2abe8

    I did read that btw.

    And it doesn't change my pov. That there is simply no evidence that this occurred in this case. So much so, the jury discounted it.
    If they accepted that she froze they would have convicted.

    Is it really that hard to accept that and stop insinuating?


  • #5206
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Yet men are more likeky to convict the defendant...
    How does that square your circle ?
    Why do men need pre rape trial training to help them understand?

    I said that jurys need training...I'll be honest, before this trial I would not have known about it either...


  • #5207
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,520 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    I'm going to quote liberally here from Ivana Bacik's article
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/how-rape-trials-in-republic-differ-from-those-in-north-1.3443644

    "It is indisputably difficult to prove rape – a fact which emerged in a different context during the hearings of the Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment."

    "The 1995 Civil Legal Aid Act allows limited legal representation for complainants in rape cases, not extending to advocacy rights. The 2001 Sex Offenders Act provides that the complainant can have access to a legally aided barrister to argue on her behalf in court where the accused seeks permission to bring forward so-called “sexual history” evidence.

    The question now is whether we should extend that right of representation further for complainants in rape cases, particularly where there are several defendants. This is certainly one potential reform that should be examined to see if it could be implemented without unduly encroaching on the due process rights of the accused."
    I don't necessarily disagree, but can't see how it will impact conviction rates, which is the point of the discussion?


  • #5208
    SomethingElse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,536 ✭✭✭SomethingElse


    Can the woman who brought these false allegations be named here, or is it just in Northern Ireland she is entitled to full anonymity?


  • #5209
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,927 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    I said that jurys need training...I'll be honest, before this trial I would not have known about it either...

    The jury was told about it by the prosecution.
    Stop undermining them.


  • #5210
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Faugheen wrote: »
    Dara Florence also said that there were no signs that the complainant was positively consenting, either.

    You going to ignore that piece of information?

    No,I haven't, why would I ignore it?

    Dara Florence gave her opinion of what she saw and interpreted as consensual sex.

    That's fine, but what Dara Florence interpreted doesn't demonstrate a fact of what was going on, as she admitted herself by saying it wasn't clear that the complainant was positively consenting.

    However, you're throwing lines around that the jury didn't believe the complainant's story (not necessarily true), and then saying how people who are being raped should be reacting.

    You are not in a position to say what anyone should be doing when they find themselves in that situation.


  • #5211
    tigger123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,603 ✭✭✭tigger123


    What sponsor is going to pay all that money to the IRFU to have its name emblazoned across Paddy Jackson's chest.


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  • #5212
    Heres Johnny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭Heres Johnny


    SomethingElse wrote: »
    Can the woman who brought these false allegations be named here, or is it just in Northern Ireland she is entitled to full anonymity?

    I'm on side of defendants and I agree with the verdict and it has to be accepted but I also agree with her anonymity. I think they should have been anonymous too by the way. She can't be named or pictured here either I assume or else every scumbag journalist would have done so already.


  • #5213
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    SomethingElse wrote: »
    Can the woman who brought these false allegations be named here, or is it just in Northern Ireland she is entitled to full anonymity?

    Don't name anyone.

    It benefits noone.


  • #5214
    Flipper22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 811 ✭✭✭Flipper22


    johnpatrick81 wrote: »
    His lawyer lost the run of himself after they were failed to be proven guilty. If Jackson had made a similar statement to the other lad, which basically apologized to the victim for hurting her unknowingly or not, then all the anger would be directed at the judicial system.

    The fact he waged war on anyone in twitter or hilariously whatsapp means he’s just made himself the most hated man in Ireland. Thousands chanting “sue me Paddy” around the country yesterday. He’ll surely emigrate.

    He is not guilty. He is fully entitled to take action against anyone defaming him. I would do the same. Jackson is not even guilty of making nasty comments in a private whatsapp group.

    I do agree that some sort of statement similar to olding acknowledging that the complainant was upset about what happened and that he regrets this, it was never his intention etc, would be a good idea. He may yet do this.

    Although if it happened as he said it did, ie a consensual act which she subsequently regretted, I imagine he would be absolutely seething with anger and in no mood to be making conciliatory statements.


  • #5215
    Nermal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,844 ✭✭✭Nermal


    'Freezing' after giving consent means you're still consenting. If you don't like what's happening, make it obvious. Claiming after the fact that you froze is not good enough.


  • #5216
    Heres Johnny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭Heres Johnny


    tigger123 wrote: »
    What sponsor is going to pay all that money to the IRFU to have its name emblazoned across Paddy Jackson's chest.

    Durex


  • #5217
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The jury was told about it by the prosecution.
    Stop undermining them.

    I was referring to jurys, not this jury in particular...
    Can you please refrain from twisting my words...please


  • #5218
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    SomethingElse wrote: »
    Can the woman who brought these false allegations be named here, or is it just in Northern Ireland she is entitled to full anonymity?

    You mean the woman who wasn't found guilty of anything?


  • #5219
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,927 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Faugheen wrote: »
    That's fine, but what Dara Florence interpreted doesn't demonstrate a fact of what was going on, as she admitted herself by saying it wasn't clear that the complainant was positively consenting.

    However, you're throwing lines around that the jury didn't believe the complainant's story (not necessarily true), and then saying how people who are being raped should be reacting.

    You are not in a position to say what anyone should be doing when they find themselves in that situation.

    Where did I say anything about 'how someone should be reacting'?

    This is just spurious nonsense now.


  • #5220
    backspin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    Indo reporting that Jackson legal bill is 500,000. That is some serious money if he really is not guilty.


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  • #5221
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Heres Johnny wrote: »
    Can I ask a question and get some logical well thought out responses please?

    The trial is over. There was a not guilty verdict given due to conflicting evidence and lack of evidence. Nobody really knows what went on in the room, perhaps not even some that were there due to the amount of alcohol involved. Now there's a baying mob all over the internet and on the streets attacking men, attacking sportsmen, the legal system and attacking rugby.

    So my question is, what do you want courts to do in these situations where the evidence isn't sufficient to convict? Do you want benefit of doubt to be given to the accuser? Take rape cases solely out of the equation and think of all crimes. Rape brings out emotion and a gender battle.

    Do you want it to be guilty until proven innocent?
    Honest question, justice system looked at it and said not guilty so I don't know what more ye want.
    No. I think Twitter reaction and protests did an awful lot of damage. A lot of damage was also caused by demonizing the accuser, calling for her to be thrown in jail and her name made public. It's just a nasty situation but at the least kids should be taught that attitude those men displayed isn't just a bit of banter, it was disgusting and damaging.


This discussion has been closed.
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