Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

RabbleRouser2k · 30-03-2018 01:38AM

qwerty ui op wrote: »

I doubt it happens any more than it did 20/30 years ago

There nothing I've read of heard to say it is a thing nowadays.
Talking about the general conduct, I'd remember several stories like this in GAA circles going back 20 years but it was the extreme end of things and it was only a small minority behaved in this way. Like the men in question it was also early twenties this got a little crazy they'd cop-on as the went into later twenties. Just like today you'd have few women acting like this.

I'd love to say ppl 'cop on' as time goes on-but nope, I know plenty twice and more the age of those guys, who carry on with such behaviour.

I've known women too, who were unbelievably idiotic, with reckless behaviour. Stuff that as a teen I knew not to do, they're in 30s and 40s and being reckless. The minimum 'bad behaviour' they do involves going on binges during the week, then driving into work/ going on drives, while hungover and wearing sunglasses.

You want to say 'come to your senses' but then you're greeted with hostility.

backspin. wrote: »

The language they used alone about her would be enough to get many men sacked in this country these days. Plus the pressure that any sponsors of Ulster Rugby or Irish Rugby would come under if they take them back would be immense. Feminism has decided those guys are finished.

Morality is different to feminism-I have an issue with what they said, and I'm no feminist.

Faugheen · 30-03-2018 01:42AM

Tsipras wrote: »

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Tsipras wrote: »

You 'think' they should be allowed.
Jesus Christ, for those two men their lives have been almost ruined, they have been fairly and squarely acquitted of ANY guilt in a court of law, and you think they 'should' be allowed to resume a normal life.
Sorry I'm only picking your post because I just looked at it now but it's the tip of the iceberg with some of the bat-**** stuff I've seen.
Accused (but not found guilty / not charged / innocent) = GUILTY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

Jackson and Olding's employers have not reinstated them immediately.

So clearly they are having a serious think before deciding what happens with them.

If they don't they're spineless cowards

If I behaved in a way that brought the company I work for into disrepute with clients/customers then I would be sacked.

They weren't found guilty but their behaviour was deplorable and, unfortunately for them, they're in the public eye which shines a light on how they act and how they treat and talk about women.

There is every possibility that they lose their jobs over those messages alone and that one is on them, nobody else.

oneilla · 30-03-2018 01:48AM

martingriff wrote: »

The only think that I feel strange about this case was why was the 4 cases on together. I get the 2 on trial for the rape been together but I think the other 2 should have been tried seperatly

Thought it was strange myself that they prosecuted all 4 in the one trial. She had only made the complaint to police against Paddy Jackson.

qwerty ui op · 30-03-2018 01:50AM

Tsipras wrote: »

If they don't they're spineless cowards

What do you think of Olding and Jackson?

prinzeugen · 30-03-2018 01:56AM

Faugheen wrote: »

If I behaved in a way that brought the company I work for into disrepute with clients/customers then I would be sacked.

They weren't found guilty but their behaviour was deplorable and, unfortunately for them, they're in the public eye which shines a light on how they act and how they treat and talk about women.

There is every possibility that they lose their jobs over those messages alone and that one is on them, nobody else.

I would be surprised if they play for Ulster again but the IRFU needs to think carefully about this.

At the end of the day, the were found not guilty (innocent) of the crime, but the Snapchat could kill international careers.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 30-03-2018 02:01AM

Some crazy stuff along with some comebacks and banter on Twitter the last day or so.

Being level headed seems to be an old fashioned concept these days.

Faugheen · 30-03-2018 02:02AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

If I behaved in a way that brought the company I work for into disrepute with clients/customers then I would be sacked.

They weren't found guilty but their behaviour was deplorable and, unfortunately for them, they're in the public eye which shines a light on how they act and how they treat and talk about women.

There is every possibility that they lose their jobs over those messages alone and that one is on them, nobody else.

I would be surprised if they play for Ulster again but the IRFU needs to think carefully about this.

At the end of the day, the were found not guilty (innocent) of the crime, but the Snapchat could kill international careers.

I'm sure they will which is why they're holding a review. I would imagine (and this is speculation on my part) there is conduct/behaviour clauses in their contracts to cover the employer.

That's my point about the WhatsApps, that's enough to show their contempt and I believe there's another Ulster player in one of those groups who's in trouble also.

At the end of the day, money talks and if sponsors don't want to be associated with them then that will be that.

It's been heavily rumoured both of them are on their way to Exeter anyway.

boege · 30-03-2018 02:08AM

Faugheen wrote: »

It's been heavily rumoured both of them are on their way to Exeter anyway.

This is probably the most likely managed solution being worked out in the background. Lads get to play and earn a crust but get away from the north and cannot play for Ireland...( if I understand that rule correctly?).

Nesta99 · 30-03-2018 02:18AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

I would be surprised if they play for Ulster again but the IRFU needs to think carefully about this.

At the end of the day, the were found not guilty (innocent) of the crime, but the Snapchat could kill international careers.

The IRFU will suspend them indefinitely for breaking the code of conduct. They will probably just not be selected again then. The issue is if the central contracts are not renewed the IRFU could be open to a law suit from the 2 players as they were found not guilty. Its a problem for them. Id imagine a lot will depend on whether endorsements are withdrawn from the players and therefore any damage to the reputation to the IRFU could mitigate against future legal action if contracts are let run out. Off to France with Jackson would fit as he'd keep a good salary in the game and the IRFU can then not select him under their non home based players policy.

gormdubhgorm · 30-03-2018 02:38AM

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Their careers have probably been ended either way. There are no winners here.

For the rugby lads maybe. (If they were soccer players it would have enhanced thier status)
For the woman, I am not sure there could be books and appearances on the late late.
Maybe even a video might be 'leaked' in future?

Laois_Man · 30-03-2018 02:46AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

For the rugby lads maybe. (If they were soccer players it would have enhanced thier status)
For the woman, I am not sure there could be books and appearances on the late late.
Maybe even a video might be 'leaked' in future?

Don't be ridiculous. Neither any publisher nor RTE will entertain an idea like publishing/broadcasting accusations which the accused have been found not guilty of. It's libelous! Also there have been no suggestions (so far) that the accuser would wish to comprise her anonymity any more than it already has been.

lukesmom · 30-03-2018 02:46AM

Why should they leave? They have done nothing wrong. Yes the texts were unfortunate, but they were private texts between friends. There is no way that they should be shipped off the Exeter to play all because of some texts and because they engaged in a threesome. If the witness hadn't of caught them all in the act I don't suppose we would all be talking about it now. Its really unfair that their lives have been ruined like this. They should be kept on their team to show a message to people that you cannot falsely accuse somebody of rape and get anything out of it.

Laois_Man · 30-03-2018 02:51AM

lukesmom wrote: »

Yes the texts were unfortunate

A lot is made of those texts. I had to revise their exact content. In fact, it is the first time I have seen their exact content laid out in a timeline like this. But the conclusion has to be that they are not equally guilty of the same level of misogynistic behaviors in those texts. Jackson doesn't come out of it as bad as a couple of others.

Muahahaha · 30-03-2018 02:52AM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Is anyone else very concerned by all the people in the media saying they'd never report a rape and would actively encourage a friend or relation not to do so?

I can fully understand the sentiment, I feel like it myself, but I feel it's very dangerous to verbalise it so much. .

Agree with this, especially Fiona Looney coming out and saying it on TV last night about her daughter. Without realising it Looney has just given a massive green light to any serial rapist out there looking for an easy target.

Rubberchikken wrote: »

Is it a common enough thing nowadays for guys to want to have sex with a woman and have their friend/friends taking part/looking on also?
Is this a porn thing and these 20 somethings exposure to same means they know nothing else?
Are some girls so enamoured with these 'sportsmen' that they will hang out on the same social areas?

I agree that the porn produced over the last decade must have some influence on the growing prevalence of group sex in society. 3somes in porn was a niche market back in the 90s, nowadays 3somes/gang bangs are all over porn sites.

As regards sportsmen and girls yes it is very prevalent in professional sports. Just as an example I have a close friend whose cousin plays underage football for Spurs in London. I have been at one of his training sessions where he was playing. Despite us being out in a muddy wet field there was lots of young girls 17, 18 years of age watching this training session whilst dressed up as if they were going to a night club. It was obvious to me that these girls are trying to bag themselves a Premier League footballer. The WAG lifestyle has been glamourised and these young girls want to be a WAG, they see it as an easy way to get all the riches and lifestyle they desire. Personally I think it is sad but it is also very much reality.

Strazdas wrote: »

One thing that crosses my mind is whether Jackson, Olding and McIlroy had done this before (I'm a bit suspicious about Olding and McIlroy ending up in that bedroom completely uninvited and when there were still other women at the party downstairs). If so, they 'went to the well' once too often and it backfired in spectacular fashion.

The trial produced text messages where the defendants boasted about spit roasting another girl the very night after they did it with the complainant. I would be almost certain that this was a regular feature of their nights out but on this occasion it back fired on them. As I said in another post last night I get the impression that their strategy was to just spring the threesome idea on a girl, i.e. man 1 begins, then man 2 walks in, wink, wink, then shortly after that man 3. That seems to have been their modus operandi, they would just surprise the girl when she was already naked and they made a big assumption that every girl would be fine with it.

_Whimsical_ · 30-03-2018 02:56AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

For the rugby lads maybe. (If they were soccer players it would have enhanced thier status)
For the woman, I am not sure there could be books and appearances on the late late.
Maybe even a video might be 'leaked' in future?

That's a very depressing underlying assumption about her character and motives, none of which there is a basis to question. Even one of them accused in their statement acknowledged she was deeply upset and that her perception of events may have been different to his.
This was a 19 year old with a place in University to study medicine, not a hackneyed old hand at status hunting.
Had she been inclined she could have sold her story of a threesome to any tabloid in the country, had her late late show moment without suffering the utter indignity that she did in the trial.

Muahahaha · 30-03-2018 03:01AM

lukesmom wrote: »

Why should they leave? They have done nothing wrong. Yes the texts were unfortunate, but they were private texts between friends.

The operative words being were private. They arent private anymore and people cannot unsee what they have already seen.

As regards calling the texts unfortunate I think they were far more serious than that. They revealed that these lads see women as sluts and who are there to please them. They degraded and humiliated her. There is nothing illegal about that but the sponsors of Ulster Rugby will be running a mile from any association with their behaviour. Sponsors pay good money to be associated with sports but the last thing they want is players alienating half the population that they are targeting their products at.

It may not be fair given they have been found not guilty but it is the reality of the situation.

spookwoman · 30-03-2018 03:03AM

professore wrote: »

Jackson followed, she said, and grabbed her trousers, pulling them down to her knees. She said she froze as Jackson pushed her down on the bed and with her tight trousers caught at her knees, she couldn’t move. “I was face down on the bed and he was having sex with me.”

Jackson knew she did not want it to happen “but he kept going”, she said.

Then the door opened and Olding walked in. “My heart just sank. I knew what was going to happen. I looked Patrick Jackson straight in the eyes and said ‘please no, not him as well’.”

How did she look him in the eye if she was face down on the bed?

She immediately got off the bed and grabbed her clothes. She put her trousers on and her underpants in her pocket. She said McIlroy said to her: “You f***ed the other guys, why won’t you f**k me?”

When did her tight trousers magically disappear? How did her underpants get off over her tight trousers?

She told McIlroy: “How many times does it take for a girl to say no for it to sink in?”

Doesn't sound like something someone paralysed by fear would say.

I was talking about dora not being able to look at the victim in the eyes because she turned her head away.

Yer Da sells Avon · 30-03-2018 03:20AM

Laois_Man wrote: »

Jackson doesn't come out of it as bad as a couple of others.

He doesn't say a lot in the texts, full-stop. You could read all sorts of things into that - including him simply not being much of a texter. One of his messages (immediately prior to his three failed attempts to call Olding) wasn't retrievable.

Lucy8080 · 30-03-2018 03:37AM

C__MC wrote: »

The woman didn’t initially mention Dara Florence to police, really really strange.

Dara Florence (sober) was invited to join in. She declined.

It makes one wonder about the possible, sudden, coming to consciousness, of a lady in one position realising another lady says "no,Thanks" to the same offer.

How do you save your reputation in such circumstances?

Ardillaun · 30-03-2018 03:38AM

I sampled some of the pages on this thread and was pleasantly surprised at the good sense shown - not nearly as much ranting as I'd expected. IMO it was the correct verdict but a very sorry tale nonetheless.

30-03-2018 03:44AM

First I've heard of it. How does thread have so many posts in 2 days?

Muahahaha · 30-03-2018 04:04AM

Ardillaun wrote: »

I sampled some of the pages on this thread and was pleasantly surprised at the good sense shown - not nearly as much ranting as I'd expected. IMO it was the correct verdict but a very sorry tale nonetheless.

Well dont go over to Twitter whatever you do, it is carnage over there with one group claiming the girl is a liar and the other group throwing the jurys decision out the window.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 30-03-2018 04:08AM

prinzeugen wrote: »

I would be surprised if they play for Ulster again but the IRFU needs to think carefully about this.

At the end of the day, the were found not guilty (innocent) of the crime, but the Snapchat could kill international careers.

Eh, no.... not the same thing. While I accept the verdict, it's not the same as being innocent. Scottish law has a "not proven" option for this very reason.

lukesmom wrote: »

Why should they leave? They have done nothing wrong. Yes the texts were unfortunate, but they were private texts between friends. There is no way that they should be shipped off the Exeter to play all because of some texts and because they engaged in a threesome. If the witness hadn't of caught them all in the act I don't suppose we would all be talking about it now. Its really unfair that their lives have been ruined like this. They should be kept on their team to show a message to people that you cannot falsely accuse somebody of rape and get anything out of it.

"Unfortunate" is a little bit of an understatement. There have been plenty of famous people who have lost respect, status, jobs and large sponsorship deals because they got caught out doing or saying something insensitvie or downright vile.

The problem when is that when you're famous - especially for something that involves representing your country - you're expected to be upstanding and ethical in behaviour and presentation at all times. Even when not "on duty". These guys were far from it and any organisation that they represent has the right to drop them from any endorsement duties

At the end of the day you know as well as I do: what people see these guys are endorsing isn't just the product or a rugby shirt.

Strazdas · 30-03-2018 04:24AM

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Dara Florence (sober) was invited to join in. She declined.

It makes one wonder about the possible, sudden, coming to consciousness, of a lady in one position realising another lady says "no,Thanks" to the same offer.

How do you save your reputation in such circumstances?

Very easy to say 'no' when you're standing in the bedroom doorway and fully clothed and it's the simplest thing to close the door and return downstairs. Also, didn't Dara say her friend was standing right behind her outside the bedroom at this moment? She was hardly going to join in given that fact.

The complainant on the other hand was half naked on a bed in the middle of a sexual act when the first of the other two eejits arrived in the room completely uninvited looking for sex. She may have felt somewhat pressurised in that scenario.

Muahahaha · 30-03-2018 04:31AM

Interesting news on the front page of the Irish Times. One of the jurors posted comments on www.broadsheet.ie outlining the jurys decision to acquit. The juror has now been referred to the Attorney General in NI and may face prosecution.

Lucy8080 · 30-03-2018 04:50AM

Strazdas wrote: »

Very easy to say 'no' when you're standing in the bedroom doorway and fully clothed and it's the simplest thing to close the door and return downstairs. Also, didn't Dara say her friend was standing right behind her outside the bedroom at this moment? She was hardly going to join in given that fact.

The complainant on the other hand was half naked on a bed in the middle of a sexual act when the first of the other two eejits arrived in the room completely uninvited looking for sex. She may have felt somewhat pressurised in that scenario.

I've read an earlier post here where Dara described Olding as laying prone (think about that) and the complainant with her behind in an upward position towards Jackson.

The crux of the matter here is that an invitation was offered to a young sober lady and she declined. No demand was made. The sober lady(the only indepentant eye-witness) also said it didn't look like a rape to her.She also left the room at her own descretion.

It doesn't read like an account of people under duress.

RabbleRouser2k · 30-03-2018 04:51AM

Strazdas wrote: »

Very easy to say 'no' when you're standing in the bedroom doorway and fully clothed and it's the simplest thing to close the door and return downstairs. Also, didn't Dara say her friend was standing right behind her outside the bedroom at this moment? She was hardly going to join in given that fact.

The complainant on the other hand was half naked on a bed in the middle of a sexual act when the first of the other two eejits arrived in the room completely uninvited looking for sex. She may have felt somewhat pressurised in that scenario.

I don't understand this comment-she wasn't going to 'join in' cos her friend was there? Uh, no, maybe she simply did not want to have sex with a total stranger-which they apparently were, to her. People have choices, clear scenarios they don't want to be in. (Again, this isn't a comment on the girl at the center of the case).

Pressurised, or interested? Women do have a choice, contrary to what some folks would believe.
I mean, you implied the one who said 'no' was pressurised into saying no-but I'd argue she simply wasn't interested.
The other scenario is that the girl in this case could have been interested in having sexual intercourse with two guys.

Again, none of us knows the actual events, barring those in the room and in the courtroom. Either way, there were no winners in this case.

Muahahaha wrote: »

Interesting news on the front page of the Irish Times. One of the jurors posted comments on www.broadsheet.ie outlining the jurys decision to acquit. The juror has now been referred to the Attorney General in NI and may face prosecution.

I think I read that twitter. She outlined the case. It was shared on reddit.

ameirecan · 30-03-2018 04:55AM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I think I read that twitter. She outlined the case. It was shared on reddit.

Does anyone have a link to what she posted exactly?

Ardillaun · 30-03-2018 04:59AM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Ardillaun wrote: »

I sampled some of the pages on this thread and was pleasantly surprised at the good sense shown - not nearly as much ranting as I'd expected. IMO it was the correct verdict but a very sorry tale nonetheless.

Well dont go over to Twitter whatever you do, it is carnage over there with one group claiming the girl is a liar and the other group throwing the jurys decision out the window.

Posters I would agree with have been described as 'vile filth' on p.ie. I avoided comment during the trial esp. as I am a rugby fan and guilty of serious bias already. This thing about the witness lying though is hard to credit - it's highly unlikely you'd go through such a harrowing ordeal if you did not believe the allegations made. Also, Rory Best did not deserve flak for agreeing to be a character witness and attending the trail as directed.

Faugheen · 30-03-2018 05:11AM

Ardillaun wrote: »

Muahahaha wrote: »

Ardillaun wrote: »

I sampled some of the pages on this thread and was pleasantly surprised at the good sense shown - not nearly as much ranting as I'd expected. IMO it was the correct verdict but a very sorry tale nonetheless.

Well dont go over to Twitter whatever you do, it is carnage over there with one group claiming the girl is a liar and the other group throwing the jurys decision out the window.

Posters I would agree with have been described as 'vile filth' on p.ie. I avoided comment during the trial esp. as I am a rugby fan and guilty of serious bias already. This thing about the witness lying though is hard to credit - it's highly unlikely you'd go through such a harrowing ordeal if you did not believe the allegations made. Also, Rory Best did not deserve flak for agreeing to be a character witness and attending the trail as directed.

Rory Best was asked to by the defence counsel. He wasn't ordered to. Only the judge can do that. He could have easily said 'no, thank you,' when it comes to attending the trial.

The captain of the Irish rugby team attended a rape trial where two of his mates are involved on the day the complainant was going to start giving evidence. It was never a good idea for someone of Best's standing to attend on that particular day.

I'm not saying there was anything malicious in it from the point of view of Best. In fact, I don't believe that at all, but he really should have known better.

Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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