Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Fann Linn

professore wrote: »

The obsession with celebrity and sex is pathetic.

The difference being that the celebs wouldn't have been named down here. Hence the dash by NT, RTE, TV3 etc north of the border.

Silentcorner

hill16bhoy wrote: »

It's a fact that they were found not guilty.

But strong belief in guilt, in a criminal trial, still equals not guilty - we don't know where on that spectrum of not guilty the jury members found them to be.

I didn't say the verdict shouldn't be respected, I respect the rule of law, it should.

Given that, I think they should be allowed resume their careers, at Ulster too.

That doesn't mean I can't have a personal opinion that I believe the complainant told the truth or that I believe the defendants lied (it's a fact that at least some of them did during the case) or that the verdict is foolproof or a "fact".

It also doesn't mean that the protests that took place today weren't legitimate - I think there are a lot of legitimate things to protest after this trial.

I completely agree....

I thought it was very unfair that the young lady had no legal representation at all and had to face a 12 person legal team...I am a fairly confident man in my 40s...that would unsettle me...

I thought it was very unfair that the 4 defendants were named in public....

I think the IRFU now finds itself in a very difficult position because of the timing of this verdict...

I believe that media shouldn't be allowed cover these trials...this was a circus...

I think, rape and sexual assault, in particular where it is non violent, is neigh on impossible to achieve the standard of proof required for a guilty verdict...

I believe that last point, will lead to a lot of genuine rapes/sexaul assaults will not now make it to court....

martingriff

The only think that I feel strange about this case was why was the 4 cases on together. I get the 2 on trial for the rape been together but I think the other 2 should have been tried seperatly

professore

kittensmittens wrote: »

Oh give over...there is always wriggle room to turn your head during that position unless you are totally restrained by the back of the head very forcibly at all times.
So unless you are saying he had her head RAMMED into the bed with full force. then it is totally physically possible.

Which is it? Head smashed down full force into the bed or face forward in the bed with ability to look behind over the shoulder? Cant be both

There's wriggle room if you are having consensual sex. If you're frozen with fear you aren't going to be turning around looking people confidently in the eye and telling another person no means no. And this is not taking in account the 4 other points I made from 5 minutes reading her testimony. And I'm no solicitor. Her story is full of holes. Maybe she was too drunk to remember it properly, but it is really inconsistent.

Now if she had said she was having consensual sex with Paddy Jackson, having taken off her trousers, and Olding came in and shoved his dick in her mouth, that makes a lot more sense. As it is described her testimony it doesn't add up at all. It's just not credible.

Fann Linn

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Is anyone else very concerned by all the people in the media saying they'd never report a rape and would actively encourage a friend or relation not to do so?

I can fully understand the sentiment, I feel like it myself, but I feel it's very dangerous to verbalise it so much. If anything what we need to be saying is that we'll stand with victims and actively support them through any trial, that we'll try to lobby for better conditions for victims in this situation.

Right now it's as if we are declaring open season for rapists and criminals by telling them we'd all be too afraid to report them.

Not worried at all about Fiona Looney, Terry Prone, LON etc.

professore

Silentcorner wrote: »

I completely agree....

I thought it was very unfair that the young lady had no legal representation at all and had to face a 12 person legal team...I am a fairly confident man in my 40s...that would unsettle me...

I thought it was very unfair that the 4 defendants were named in public....

I think the IRFU now finds itself in a very difficult position because of the timing of this verdict...

I believe that media shouldn't be allowed cover these trials...this was a circus...

I think, rape and sexual assault, in particular where it is non violent, is neigh on impossible to achieve the standard of proof required for a guilty verdict...

I believe that last point, will lead to a lot of genuine rapes/sexaul assaults will not now make it to court....

I agree with all of that too.

Silentcorner

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Is anyone else very concerned by all the people in the media saying they'd never report a rape and would actively encourage a friend or relation not to do so?

I can fully understand the sentiment, I feel like it myself, but I feel it's very dangerous to verbalise it so much. If anything what we need to be saying is that we'll stand with victims and actively support them through any trial, that we'll try to lobby for better conditions for victims in this situation.

Right now it's as if we are declaring open season for rapists and criminals by telling them we'd all be too afraid to report them.

It is a persons civic duty to report crimes...as hard as it might be...

But can you honestly expect women to report rape/sexual assault when they now know what is ahead of them?

Rubberchikken

Is it a common enough thing nowadays for guys to want to have sex with a woman and have their friend/friends taking part/looking on also?
Is this a porn thing and these 20 somethings exposure to same means they know nothing else?
Are some girls so enamoured with these 'sportsmen' that they will hang out on the same social areas?

Personally i find the whole lot of them tiresome. How any one can behave as they have (male and female) with what appears to be no respect for either themselves or anyone else is worrisome.

The idea that that guy could walk into the bedroom with his penis, according to court reporting, in his hand makes me despair. These are the future - heaven help us.

Tsipras

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Given that, I think they should be allowed resume their careers, at Ulster too.

You 'think' they should be allowed.
Jesus Christ, for those two men their lives have been almost ruined, they have been fairly and squarely acquitted of ANY guilt in a court of law, and you think they 'should' be allowed to resume a normal life.
Sorry I'm only picking your post because I just looked at it now but it's the tip of the iceberg with some of the bat-**** stuff I've seen.
Accused (but not found guilty / not charged / innocent) = GUILTY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

Strazdas

professore wrote: »

There are far more cut and dried cases of rape out there than this one but no one cares about them. At the end of the day these men will still have flocks of women lining up to have sex with them...if anything more so than before. 50 shades was the last straw on that.

It's as much an indictment of our pathetic society - both men and women. The justice system is the only reasonable and honourable part of it.

The whole thing is bizarre and disgusting.

One thing that crosses my mind is whether Jackson, Olding and McIlroy had done this before (I'm a bit suspicious about Olding and McIlroy ending up in that bedroom completely uninvited and when there were still other women at the party downstairs). If so, they 'went to the well' once too often and it backfired in spectacular fashion.

_Whimsical_

Silentcorner wrote: »

It is a persons civic duty to report crimes...as hard as it might be...

But can you honestly expect women to report rape/sexual assault when they now know what is ahead of them?

No I can't, I feel the same myself as a woman. Men are raped much much less but it does happen, it's an issue for them too.
I feel like we just can't afford to go out roaring that we are too afraid either though, unfortunately the greatest deterrents we have against rape is reporting, the fear of punishment, the loss of social standing and shame. If no one reports these deterrents no longer exist. It's a dangerous rallying cry right now. We need a different one. Maybe it needs to be that we offer greater support to victims in the legal system and society too, maybe something else, but right now we are leading up a dangerous path.

professore

Rubberchikken wrote: »

Is it a common enough thing nowadays for guys to want to have sex with a woman and have their friend/friends taking part/looking on also?
Is this a porn thing and these 20 somethings exposure to same means they know nothing else?
Are some girls so enamoured with these 'sportsmen' that they will hang out on the same social areas?

Personally i find the whole lot of them tiresome. How any one can behave as they have (male and female) with what appears to be no respect for either themselves or anyone else is worrisome.

The idea that that guy could walk into the bedroom with his penis, according to court reporting, in his hand makes me despair. These are the future - heaven help us.

I'm with you. Everyone knows the reputation rugby players and the women that hang around with them. have. Read Ross O Carroll Kelly FFS. He nails it. I only hope the likes of Paul O Connell, Ronan O Gara etc.are not like that.

Tsipras

Strazdas wrote: »

professore wrote: »

There are far more cut and dried cases of rape out there than this one but no one cares about them. At the end of the day these men will still have flocks of women lining up to have sex with them...if anything more so than before. 50 shades was the last straw on that.

It's as much an indictment of our pathetic society - both men and women. The justice system is the only reasonable and honourable part of it.

The whole thing is bizarre and disgusting.

One thing that crosses my mind is whether Jackson, Olding and McIlroy had done this before (I'm a bit suspicious about Olding and McIlroy ending up in that bedroom completely uninvited and when there were still other women at the party downstairs). If so, they 'went to the well' once too often and it backfired in spectacular fashion.

What does it matter if they had a threesome before?

Strazdas

Rubberchikken wrote: »

Is it a common enough thing nowadays for guys to want to have sex with a woman and have their friend/friends taking part/looking on also?
Is this a porn thing and these 20 somethings exposure to same means they know nothing else?
Are some girls so enamoured with these 'sportsmen' that they will hang out on the same social areas?

Personally i find the whole lot of them tiresome. How any one can behave as they have (male and female) with what appears to be no respect for either themselves or anyone else is worrisome.

The idea that that guy could walk into the bedroom with his penis, according to court reporting, in his hand makes me despair. These are the future - heaven help us.

I've heard a lot of speculation that porn may indeed be a factor in all this.

George Best was a known womaniser and yet there is zero evidence he ever had another man in a bedroom with him when he was with a woman. This type of thing seems a more recent development.

Silentcorner

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

No I can't, I feel the same myself as a woman. Men are raped much much less but it does happen, it's an issue for them too.
I feel like we just can't afford to go out roaring that we are too afraid either though, unfortunately the greatest deterrents we have against rape is reporting, the fear of punishment, the loss of social standing and shame. If no one reports these deterrents no longer exist. It's a dangerous rallying cry right now. We need a different one. Maybe it needs to be that we offer greater support to victims in the legal system and society too, maybe something else, but right now we are leading up a dangerous path.

I wholeheartedly agree with you...it is dangerous...

But you'll see...the amount of pending cases that will collapse over the next few months will paint a very depressing picture...

Like I said in an earlier post...nobody won yesterday...(apart from media organisations)

We shouldn't know these peoples names or anything else other than a verdict...it is not in the public interest...

Strazdas

Tsipras wrote: »

What does it matter if they had a threesome before?

Asking for trouble maybe? Rape or no rape, this incident has turned into a complete disaster for them. Maybe if those other two eejits had stayed away from that bedroom, we would never have heard about any of this.

retro:electro

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

No I can't, I feel the same myself as a woman. Men are raped much much less but it does happen, it's an issue for them too.
I feel like we just can't afford to go out roaring that we are too afraid either though, unfortunately the greatest deterrents we have against rape is reporting, the fear of punishment, the loss of social standing and shame. If no one reports these deterrents no longer exist. It's a dangerous rallying cry right now. We need a different one. Maybe it needs to be that we offer greater support to victims in the legal system and society too, maybe something else, but right now we are leading up a dangerous path.

I totally agree. For every #ibelieveher hashtag I see there’s another telling women not to report because this will be the result. Why would you want to discourage women from reporting a rape? Why do them such a disservice and strip of services, supports and listeners? They should be telling women not to be afraid, don’t be discouraged by this and always report. Such irresponsible bs being spouted from arseholes trying to be subversive

hill16bhoy

Silentcorner wrote: »

I completely agree....

I thought it was very unfair that the young lady had no legal representation at all and had to face a 12 person legal team...I am a fairly confident man in my 40s...that would unsettle me...

I thought it was very unfair that the 4 defendants were named in public....

I think the IRFU now finds itself in a very difficult position because of the timing of this verdict...

I believe that media shouldn't be allowed cover these trials...this was a circus...

I think, rape and sexual assault, in particular where it is non violent, is neigh on impossible to achieve the standard of proof required for a guilty verdict...

I believe that last point, will lead to a lot of genuine rapes/sexaul assaults will not now make it to court....

There are arguments for and against naming defendants in rape trials. The UK granted anonymity to such defendants between 1976 and 1988.

The main argument for naming them is that it encourages victims of serial rapists to come forward.

But one can obviously see the downsides too. It's a balance. I think I favour naming defendants, but there is no perfect system.

In this case, I don't see how the identity of the defendants could ever have remained anonymous. Tom Humphries was supposed to be anonymous until he pleaded guilty, but the whole country knew what was going on within a few weeks of him stopping writing for the Irish Times in 2011.

This case was a perfect storm. The celebrity status of the defendants made it a circus. The courtroom has the largest public gallery in Northern Ireland if not the whole island.

The complainant was named in court and shown on screens. In a town like Belfast, her anonymity never stood a chance of surviving.

The fact that there were four defendants multiplied the cross examination time she had to face compared to a trial with only one defendant.

It was about as daunting a task as a complainant could have faced.

Tsipras

Strazdas wrote: »

Tsipras wrote: »

What does it matter if they had a threesome before?

Asking for trouble maybe? Rape or no rape, this incident has turned into a complete disaster for them. Maybe if those other two eejits had stayed away from that bedroom, we would never have heard about any of this.

So she was happy having sex with PJ but not the second lad? Didn't say that in court

hill16bhoy

Tsipras wrote: »

You 'think' they should be allowed.
Jesus Christ, for those two men their lives have been almost ruined, they have been fairly and squarely acquitted of ANY guilt in a court of law, and you think they 'should' be allowed to resume a normal life.
Sorry I'm only picking your post because I just looked at it now but it's the tip of the iceberg with some of the bat-**** stuff I've seen.
Accused (but not found guilty / not charged / innocent) = GUILTY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

Jackson and Olding's employers have not reinstated them immediately.

So clearly they are having a serious think before deciding what happens with them.

martingriff

Tsipras wrote: »

You 'think' they should be allowed.
Jesus Christ, for those two men their lives have been almost ruined, they have been fairly and squarely acquitted of ANY guilt in a court of law, and you think they 'should' be allowed to resume a normal life.
Sorry I'm only picking your post because I just looked at it now but it's the tip of the iceberg with some of the bat-**** stuff I've seen.
Accused (but not found guilty / not charged / innocent) = GUILTY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

Ì have a feeling you are picking up this person's text wrong and trying to be outraged by it. They are found not guilty and as such should (they used think but same thing) be allowed to play the sport. Nothing wrong with that

_Whimsical_

Tsipras wrote: »

So she was happy having sex with PJ but not the second lad? Didn't say that in court

She very strongly said she didn't want sex with PJ and told him that. Her description of what happened was very vivid and believable, down to her pants being so tight that he pulled them down but couldn't pull them off her legs and with them half down and very tight she could not get away from him physically.

Yamanoto

Great to see so many citizens turn out to express their abhorrence of due process running its course on these islands.

Bodes well.

I found this to be an excellent report of whole trial. Unbiased, not noticeably sensationalist or passionate, just an overview of the trial without an agenda.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/inside-court-12-the-complete-story-of-the-belfast-rape-trial-1.3443620

It's a long read. However if you are making judgements or comments about this case, no doubt you'll want to get all the information you can get about it and reading won't be a problem for you.

Tsipras

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Tsipras wrote: »

You 'think' they should be allowed.
Jesus Christ, for those two men their lives have been almost ruined, they have been fairly and squarely acquitted of ANY guilt in a court of law, and you think they 'should' be allowed to resume a normal life.
Sorry I'm only picking your post because I just looked at it now but it's the tip of the iceberg with some of the bat-**** stuff I've seen.
Accused (but not found guilty / not charged / innocent) = GUILTY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

Jackson and Olding's employers have not reinstated them immediately.

So clearly they are having a serious think before deciding what happens with them.

If they don't they're spineless cowards

martingriff

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Jackson and Olding's employers have not reinstated them immediately.

So clearly they are having a serious think before deciding what happens with them.

I think it's to cover there ass kind of thing. They should have said nothing though. With the amount of time they were off I would not have expected to see them this season anyway

RabbleRouser2k

Strazdas wrote: »

I've heard a lot of speculation that porn may indeed be a factor in all this.

George Best was a known womaniser and yet there is zero evidence he ever had another man in a bedroom with him when he was with a woman. This type of thing seems a more recent development.

Porn doesn't make someone do those things-they have their own choice, their own agency.

It's the same crud people try and blame video games for.

hill16bhoy

Yamanoto wrote: »

Great to see so many citizens turn out to express their abhorrence of due process running its course on these islands.

Bodes well.

You might not like it, but a right to protest is a fundamental part of democracy.

Protests at trial verdicts are not a new thing either. They've been going on for pretty much as long as trials have existed.

And I highly doubt the protests were just at the verdict - there were likely a lot of people there who could accept the verdict but wanted to protest about related issues raised by the trial.

qwerty ui op

Rubberchikken wrote: »

Is it a common enough thing nowadays for guys to want to have sex with a woman and have their friend/friends taking part/looking on also?

I doubt it happens any more than it did 20/30 years ago

Rubberchikken wrote: »

Is this a porn thing and these 20 somethings exposure to same means they know nothing else?
Are some girls so enamoured with these 'sportsmen' that they will hang out on the same social areas?

Personally i find the whole lot of them tiresome. How any one can behave as they have (male and female) with what appears to be no respect for either themselves or anyone else is worrisome.

The idea that that guy could walk into the bedroom with his penis, according to court reporting, in his hand makes me despair. These are the future - heaven help us.

There nothing I've read of heard to say it is a thing nowadays.
Talking about the general conduct, I'd remember several stories like this in GAA circles going back 20 years but it was the extreme end of things and it was only a small minority behaved in this way. Like the men in question it was also early twenties things got a little crazy they'd cop-on as they went into later twenties. Just like today you'd have few women acting like this.

backspin.

Tsipras wrote: »

If they don't they're spineless cowards

The language they used alone about her would be enough to get many men sacked in this country these days. Plus the pressure that any sponsors of Ulster Rugby or Irish Rugby would come under if they take them back would be immense. Feminism has decided those guys are finished.