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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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    #1382
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sidebaro wrote: »
    If you replaced mentions of men with white people and women with black people in your post then you'd sound like Charles Manson.

    Why's that then ?


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    #1383
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    GingerLily wrote: »
    Or you could just ask them?

    You don't sound mature enough for sex anyway tbh

    In a long term relationship...But I'm pretty certain when I was in my 20's and my friends who were too males or females didn't have a conversation before sex. It's generally implied what was happening...but now we know we'll need to have a full conversation with a witness before engaging in amerious behaviour


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    #1384
    bilbot79
    Registered Users Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    I'm glad they got off. I think a lot of people/feminazis see this as a defeat of a 'movement' that encourages people to report rape and which they think should steamroll over anyone it chooses. These people surprise me as they won't even fathom the idea that anybody in any rape trial ever could possibly be innocent.

    Like most I was back and forth over innocence and guilt but in the end I was convinced of innocence. It would have been criminal for them to go down for that. Even if she wasn't willing she didn't make it clear enough.

    I believe she could have and should have prevented it.


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    #1385
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    storker wrote: »
    ...as I said.



    It's not meant to be "useful", whatever that means. It's just that when mulling over the not-guilty vs innocent debate (and as far as I can see, not guilty means they are innocent), I remembered the Simpson case where he was found not guilty but I still believed he did it.

    What it means is... it’s not that useful. They are very different cases. The OJ Simpson trial was a circus. Farcical. It’s not the best comparison to illustrate that a verdict can be unsound. Many people are using it as an example on various social media threads.


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    #1386
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    endacl wrote: »
    Louise O'Neill's gonna explode...

    Wow even in this thread you need to mention Lon.


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    #1387
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    spookwoman wrote: »
    Didn't know that and i cannot see anything on line about it.

    There's not much, and plenty has been removed. But here ya go: https://www.google.ie/search?client=opera&hs=ijM&q=ishmael+akinade&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjswLKCjpDaAhUCfMAKHaJjARoQBQgkKAA&biw=1496&bih=754


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    #1388
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,433 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    the fact that it took 4 hours deliberation suggests the jury were confident it was not rape.
    Or at least that they were confident that the case hadn't been proven beyond all doubt.


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    #1389
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,777 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    Will be interesting to see the numbers out on the streets protesting tomorrow.


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    #1390
    KM792
    Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭KM792


    I've followed this case throughout and I've found myself changing my mind quite a lot.Somedays swaying heavily on the side of innocent,other days on the side of guilty.It has made me question my very definition and notion of consent,and that is something I never thought I would come to question as a 27 year old woman.Here is my opinion on what I think happened that night,I hope I don't offend anyone with what I'm about to say...

    They were all having a normal,enjoyable night out.Drink was consumed by all parties,that is not disputed.Somewhere in the course of the night the woman took a shine to Paddy Jackson and wanted to be at the house party in question,probably with the prospect of something happening between the two.There is nothing wrong with this of course.I think she entered the bedroom that night willingly and what began as a consensual encounter with Paddy become a threesome with Olding which she was not comfortable with.I will stress here I do not think this equated to rape more an encounter I think she came to bitterly regret.I have found myself in positions after a lot of alcohol where a situation escalated into something I thought it would not become.Maybe they began to act in a manner that made her feel extremely uncomfortable,did she stop and say "I do not want this anymore"?Probably not and they were probably too inebriated and in the heat of the moment to realise.
    There has been so much grey area in this case,I would not feel entirely comfortable calling her a "liar" or a "slut",nor would I feel entirely comfortable sentencing any of those lads to a lengthy prison sentence for rape.The truth of the matter,I think lies somewhere in the middle.To conclude my point,I think this will open up the very important subject of consent for many young people.I would have once scoffed at the idea of people(myself included) not knowing exactly what consent was but it seems it is not as clear cut and concise as I thought it was.Again,this is just my personal opinion,I hope I have not offended anyone in anyway.


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    #1391
    holyhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭holyhead


    bilbot79 wrote: »

    I believe she could have and should have prevented it.

    Without being in the room how can you make that statement? Why should she have to prevent anything?


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    #1392
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users Posts: 85,423 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Was the messages that were deleted retrieved?
    https://forumofgames.com/




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    #1393
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    givyjoe wrote: »
    Are you telling me or asking me? Perhaps at swingers parties yes. There's plenty of threesomes that happen 'spontaneously' were no rules are 'hammered' out, alcohol is involved and no one is defiled, assaulted or raped (again, this case aside)

    Hang on, after care?!

    After care- kink scene, yep. I think probably the majority of group sex that takes place is planned out and discussed yep. You used the word 'regularly' that does not suggest spontaneity.


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    #1394
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    Deleted User wrote:
    Why's that then ?

    Suggesting that Group A is trying to keep Group B down and such...


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    #1395
    KrustyUCC
    Registered Users Posts: 6,034 ✭✭✭KrustyUCC


    https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/979071087534362625?s=20


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    #1396
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    Will be interesting to see the numbers out on the streets protesting tomorrow.

    It'll be a mix of stay at home mother's, unemployed, students and full time feminist...People who generally lend nothing to society. They should look at themselves and maybe try and understand how the courts work...

    There were 5 losers today, 4 of them have been named and their lives irreversible changed the fifth, the complainant, who knows


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    #1397
    podmu80
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭podmu80


    Deleted User wrote: »
    spookwoman wrote: »
    Didn't know that and i cannot see anything on line about it.

    There's not much, and plenty has been removed. But here ya go: https://www.google.ie/search?client=opera&hs=ijM&q=ishmael+akinade&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjswLKCjpDaAhUCfMAKHaJjARoQBQgkKAA&biw=1496&bih=754
    Thats a shocking case. Shame on the judge. Shame on waterford United. And the media. Disgusting.


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    #1398
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    After care- kink scene, yep. I think probably the majority of group sex that takes place is planned out and discussed yep. You used the word 'regularly' that does not suggest spontaneity.

    Way to nitpick. Regulalry wasn't intended to mean the same people.. i was referring to the wider public and 'average joes' having threesomes.

    Is the kink scene really typical of the average consensual threesome? You think? probably? Not my experience and plenty of others seem to agree so I'll stick with that.


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    #1399
    washman3
    Registered Users Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭washman3


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I think you are wrong on this. The judge required a unanimous verdict. That verdict was not guilty.

    Are you sure of this.? Did the judge state that for the 4 to found guilty all 11 jurors would have to agree on this.?
    I find it beyond comprehension that after hearing 9 weeks of evidence, all 11 jurors could reach the same conclusion in 2 hours.


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    #1400
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    c.p.w.g.w wrote:
    It'll be a mix of stay at home mother's, unemployed, students and full time feminist...People who generally lend nothing to society. They should look at themselves and maybe try and understand how the courts work...

    Goddamn stay at home mothers! The real leeches of society.


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    #1401
    storker
    Registered Users Posts: 5,646 ✭✭✭storker


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    What it means is... it’s not that useful. They are very different cases. The OJ Simpson trial was a circus. Farcical. It’s not the best comparison to illustrate that a verdict can be unsound. Many people are using it as an example on various social media threads.

    OK I think I see where you're coming from. I wasn't making a direct comparison, just musing that sometimes you might be the one agreeing with the verdict, other times you might be the one sayings its BS.


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    #1402
    oneilla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭oneilla


    JP Liz V1 wrote: »
    Was the messages that were deleted retrieved?

    Afaik no.


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    #1403
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Sidebaro wrote: »
    Goddamn stay at home mothers! The real leeches of society.

    Ha ha bit of a generalisation...

    My above comment didn't mean that all stay at home mother's, but the crowd will have some stay at home mother's


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    #1404
    RabbleRouser2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,285 ✭✭✭RabbleRouser2k


    The Talking Bread wrote: »
    Speak for yourself and your own mates buddy

    Rallies are being planned in regards to the case.
    Twitter is overflowing with comments.

    As for the case...I couldn't cheer on a rugby game with those guys playing, because I could not support them with doubts in my mind. If that offends anyone, I am very sorry, but this is just me.

    This isn't the first report of an Irish rugby threesome-wasn't too long ago a now departing player was implicated in a threesome. It caused a huge fuss, and they blocked any reports on the case. (Everyone knows who they are on twitter).

    And from the stories on twitter, seems the 'treat women like a piece of meat' is a common occurring thing within Irish sports. Not among the majority, mind, but rather a dark underbelly.
    Have I spoken ill of women-yes, but I've spoken ill of men too. The difference is, I was never the 'use em and lose em' guy, the fella who tries to get rid of them as quick as he can. I can do my best to know clear and clear consent. Trust me, you know when she's 'not interested'.

    The judge, after reading the texts described them being of 'good character'-but anyone reading those text messages wouldn't say that. Even the treatment afterwards-whether you believe it was rape or not-that shows some kind of warped mentality.


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    #1405
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    Hang on a second

    The accused being found not guilty or rape does not equate to the accuser being found guilty of being a lying bitch!

    ^^^^
    Can we put this quote in lights seems to be a load of lads on here that can't fathom this.

    Even Olding apologised to the woman at the centre of the case.

    He said: “I want to acknowledge that the complainant came to court and gave evidence about her perception of those events.

    'I am sorry for the hurt that was caused to the complainant. It was never my intention to hurt anyone on that night'.


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    #1406
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,121 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    washman3 wrote: »
    Are you sure of this.? Did the judge state that for the 4 to found guilty all 11 jurors would have to agree on this.?
    I find it beyond comprehension that after hearing 9 weeks of evidence, all 11 jurors could reach the same conclusion in 2 hours.

    She told them they should first try to reach a unanimous verdict and that they could come back to a 'majority verdict later'
    So if somebody wanted to hold out they could.
    I don't think there was much doubt in the jury judging by the speed of decision after a 9 week trial.


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    #1407
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Or at least that they were confident that the case hadn't been proven beyond all doubt.


    4 hours deliberation in an 8+ week trial, suggests that is the least all right!


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    #1408
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    c.p.w.g.w wrote:
    My above comment didn't mean that all stay at home mother's, but the crowd will have some stay at home mother's

    I assumed you didn't mean ALL stay at home mothers would attend, there aren't enough babysitters or creches for that turnout. I was more poking fun at your inclusion of them as generally not lending anything to society?


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    #1409
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Sidebaro wrote: »
    I assumed you didn't mean ALL stay at home mothers would attend, there aren't enough babysitters or creches for that turnout. I was more poking fun at your inclusion of them as generally not lending anything to society?

    Oh that was direct at full time feminists...Stay at home mother's (& father's) do a great job, and generally thankless


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    #1410
    johnpatrick81
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭johnpatrick81


    The Tonight Show on TV3 had a very good discussion on it.

    I agree with others that the female witness played a HUGE part in the acquittal.

    As Terry Keane and the lady from Rape Crisis pointed out though, if you remain silent and numb while being mugged, it’s not questioned. But during rape it’s used as a sign of consent.

    You’d also wonder about the witness, I mean unless yer wan was in cries of ecstasy or giving her the thumbs up, how can she be sure the complainant was consenting?

    Could money have encouraged a witness? Or ties to the rugby society?

    The character witness who had their bag lifted onto a bus by 1 of the lads was pure bizarre too.


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    #1411
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,121 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    johnpatrick81 wrote: »
    The Tonight Show on TV3 had a very good discussion on it.

    I agree with others that the female witness played a HUGE part in the acquittal.

    As Terry Keane and the lady from Rape Crisis pointed out though, if you remain silent and numb while being mugged, it’s not questioned. But during rape it’s used as a sign of consent.

    Yes, but she was very well rebutted By Buttimer and the other legal guy.
    The job of the defence is to put that out there and allow the jury to factor it in to their assessment. They may discount it or think it odd given the rest of the story.


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