Is the God of Islam the Christian God?

Yoda · 30-07-2003 10:10PM #1

As a Buddhist I found the census results to be pretty disappointing. A great many people were lumped together into "other" and I doubt very much that the Sikhs and the Ásatrú Norse neopagans think that's appropriate. For my part I think that describing "Lutheran" and "Baptist" and "Roman Catholic" -- and for that matter "Muslim" and "Jew" as different religions is pretty silly. They're all devotees of the God of Abraham, after all.

JustHalf · 01-08-2003 01:18PM

Obviously this is nonsense.

Typedef · 01-08-2003 01:35PM

Obviously this is nonsense.

What? How?

JustHalf · 01-08-2003 03:18PM

Well, to say that Christianity, Judaism and Islam shouldn't be classed as seperate religions is to spout nonsense. It's like saying English and German shouldn't be classed as seperate languages (or to a lesser extent, C++ and Perl).

"Other" is a heading used to prevent massively verbose reports. That's pretty much the main reason for its use. To be insulted by being thrown in under the heading "other" is to be insulted by a matter of practicality.

Yoda · 01-08-2003 04:51PM

I don't see how it's nonsense at all. It is clear that a person who worships Thor and Odin practices a demonstrably different religion than one who worships Ganesha. Both of those religions describe the creation of the world in completely different ways.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the God of Abraham, who made the world himself (Jeremiah said (I think) as a potter makes a pot), who reveals his wishes to us through prophets, and who wants His Will to be Done. The details as to the rules to follow differ among them, and the authority of those who are imparting God's differs as well -- and they differ very considerably. But at their most basic level, these "religions" have more in common (i.e. the same god) than not. Methinks that a little attention to this detail would bring about a little more peace and understanding in the world.

I didn't say I was insulted by the Census results. I said I was disappointed. A little bit more granularity on the side of minority respondants would balance out all the detail on the Christian sects.

JustHalf · 01-08-2003 05:06PM

But "Other" isn't a religion!

I don't understand your calls for balance. The census results clearly show an unbalance, an uneven distribution of members of religions.

By the way, with just a little more vagueness you could cover every single monotheistic religion with that paragraph. A little more, you cover every religion. After all, it's all in the details, which as you say don't matter.

Yoda · 01-08-2003 05:17PM

I am aware that the census results clearly show an unbalance, an uneven distribution of members of religions. I was saying that I was disappointed that a bit more detail on the minority religions would have been nice to see. (That's not the same thing as saying that we should see all four million responses.)

JustHalf · 01-08-2003 05:23PM

I'm sure there's a way for you to get that information. Freedom of Information Act?

Yoda · 01-08-2003 05:27PM

JustHalf a dúirt
By the way, with just a little more vagueness you could cover every single monotheistic religion with that paragraph. A little more, you cover every religion. After all, it's all in the details, which as you say don't matter.

What you say here isn't correct. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are monotheistic, but the point is that they worship the same god. Sikhism is monotheistic, but that god doesn't have anything do to with Abraham. A monotheistic religion which revered a goddess would not be the same religion as that of Abraham's god.

JustHalf · 01-08-2003 05:48PM

Christians, Jews and Muslims worship the same god, only as far as Muslims are concerned. I certainly don't believe it.

Yoda · 01-08-2003 06:17PM

That doesn't make any sense at all. Jews claim that the God of Abraham revealed the commandments to him. Christians claim that the same God spoke to John the baptist and had a very special relationship with Jesus. Muslims claim that the very same God spoke to Muhammad.

You may not accept the validity of the revelation to Muhammad (or to Joseph Smith for that matter) but you can't deny that it's the same God that they are worshipping.

Sangre · 01-08-2003 06:20PM

What are you talking about Yoda?

I think a certain Jesus changes the nature of Judaism and Christianity....along with the New Testement.

These 'Other' people are so werid sometimes.

Yoda · 01-08-2003 06:31PM

I'm saying that the God of Abraham is the one worshipped by Jews, Christians, and Muslims. I'm saying that there aren't three different gods there being worshipped. They all worship the one who made Adam. It's the same Big Dude. Not like in Hinduism where Ganesha has an elephant's head and four arms and all. Clearly he is a different deity than the guy who got Noah to build the ark and all that.

Jesus changed the way that some people (i.e. Christians) looked at Judaism. He didn't change Judaism though. That's why we still have Jews, who deny that the gospels form a revelation from God. By the same token, Muhammad changed the way that some people (i.e. Muslims) looked at Judaism and Christianity. He didn't change those religions though.

But they all worship I AM THAT I AM. That God.

(Heavens, this is easy enough to understand.)

seamus · 01-08-2003 06:37PM

Originally posted by Sangre
What are you talking about Yoda?

I think a certain Jesus changes the nature of Judaism and Christianity....along with the New Testement.

I think the point is that the God is still the same. Christians see Jesus as the Son of God, and Jews see him as a prophet. From there, Christianity skews away from Judeaism, but it's still essentially the same God.

Does anyone else find the Census results a bit off-trend? In theory, there should be no survey more accurate than a census, but every other survey I'd seen in the last two years put the number of Catholics in Ireland at around 60%, not the 90-odd% that the census seems to show. IMO, that would be primarily down to the mammy factor (ie The mother fills out the census for the entire household, putting in all her kids as Catholic). IMO, some people would also feel obliged to put in Catholic, even though they don't practice anymore. Even my gf gave out to me when I put NONE under that section. I promptly told her to f*ck off.

Yoda · 01-08-2003 06:51PM

The problem with censuses is that they are only ever as good as the questions asked. Ireland has done the same lacklustre job of setting forth census questions as most countries do. More attention is given to making the form easy to fill out in a short time than is given to making the questions accurate.

The language question is one such example. A proper language question will recognize that some people are natively bilingual from birth (having a mother tongue and a father tongue), and certainly the question should have allowed the respondants to give opinions about other languages. How many Russian speakers do we have? How many Hausa speakers? For social and educational grounds these questions are important. Interestingly, the Soviets did a great job of asking language questions.

If the religion question were more honest it would allow people to more accurately describe what kind of "catholics" they are. Active, Lapsed, Once-a-year.... that kind of thing.

Lukin Black · 17-08-2003 11:48PM

Originally posted by Yoda
The problem with censuses is that they are only ever as good as the questions asked. Ireland has done the same lacklustre job of setting forth census questions as most countries do. More attention is given to making the form easy to fill out in a short time than is given to making the questions accurate.

But it has to be short - as it is I think they're pushing it. There's only so much that people want to say about themselves before they start going "WTF do they need to know that for?". Even at what it was, some of the questions were

Originally posted by Yoda
If the religion question were more honest it would allow people to more accurately describe what kind of "catholics" they are. Active, Lapsed, Once-a-year.... that kind of thing.

In addition, a question like that could be uncomfortable - I'd say many people lapse without realising it, and having to question themselves out of the blue wouldn't be nice..

Yoda · 18-08-2003 12:10AM

A census has got to explain on page 1 the reasons for asking, which are not idle curiosity. A proper language question would assist the department of education in ensuring that educational materials were available for significant minorities in the State. Oregon does this for its large Hmong community, if I recall correctly, and Sweden may do so for its large Somali community.

According to the preliminary census results, a fair number of people indicated that they were lapsed RC and lapsed CofI anyway.

And hey, why should anyone be shielded from considering his or her life? Shunning "uncomfortable" questions? Well it seems to me that a census ought to be about realism, not wishfulness.

watty · 19-08-2003 02:58PM

Methodists are sort of connected to Apostolic succession too.

Judeaism, Islam and Christianity do have a connecting thread.

Islam though, while asserting Mohammed is the Final Prophet condriticts Judaism and Christianity.

The 1st council of Jerusalem examined the relationship between Judaism (different them from now) and the Followers of Yashua H'Mashia (Jesus the Christ). They conculded Gentiles need not become Jews.

Paul later examined issue of Jewish ritual in Christian Church and concluded that followers where free to observe or not observe according to own consience. Islam does not recognise any such right. A Jew or Christian must convert to Islam.

Some branches of Christian Church do not require any "conversion" of Jews, just that they accept teaching regarding Yeshua. This is not true of Islam. Christianity teachs that (Even in New testement) Judaism and Christianity are different "religions" but that some day the wild and cultivated olive branchs (Jews and Christian Gentiles) will somehow be reuinted in one olive tree.

Christians have wrong persecuted Jews in the past. Jews understandbly have been very negative about Christianity. Both regard Islam in almost same Light as Jehova Witnesses, Bahai or Mormons.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are definately three separate religions. Within in some fairly minority sub groups there are close connections between Judaism practising Jews, Christian (Messianic) Jews and Gentile Christians.

Jews and Christians in whole history of Islam, have never accepted Islam as a related religion, though it is true that Islam claim to revere Abraham, worship same God and claim Jesus as a Prophet.

Claiming these three major religions are one because of Abraham is about as logical as claiming Hindu and Seik are same because people in India do them.

I agree that "other" is not a very usefull category other than indicating percentage not covered by the listed "Religions".

(I would not Regard Roman Catholic and Presbyterian as separate religions, though by background closer to the Presbyterian side of that theological fence than Roman. Despite claims of some Prodestants , Catholics a not all apostate, nor does any one branch of Christianity be immune from apostasy etc.).

Don't judge Jesus by the Church or its members, but on his own merit!

Yoda · 19-08-2003 05:13PM

Claiming these three major religions are one because of Abraham is about as logical as claiming Hindu and Seik are same because people in India do them.

It is perfectly logical. I claim nothing but a fact: that they all worship the same God, and that by any yardstick that makes them more similar than different. Where they like to disagree is in how and to whom their God reveals His Will, but he's the same Big Guy.

Sikhs don't worship the elephant-headed god Ganesha, for instance. Sikhism is very largely monotheistic. Its devotions are principally focussed on their holy book the Guru Granth Sahib.

watty · 20-08-2003 08:17PM

But Christians and Jews would argue that Islam does not worship the same God.

The Quran may talk about Abraham and the Prophets and God, but not in a fashion Recognisable in Torah (book of Law in OT), or Tenach (Entire OT). The Jewish English translations form Hebrew and Aramiac of Tenach are very similar to Christian "Old Testement" translations of Hebrew and Aramiac (Sometimes Catholic Translators refer to later Latin editions when a passage is unclear).

Jews and Christians study the same book essentially about God. The Tenach/Old Testement.
(The Christians have a small extra part which is 4 accounts of Jesus preaching (Gospels) and a collection of early Church letters, and the Book of Revelation which is a bit like Daniel.)

Jews in Israel in College even study the Christian New Testment too for material on 1st Centuary Isreali life.

Islamic followers do not study these books. Their book describes a different God, while mentioning Abraham and Jesus. Mohammed genuinely thought Jews and Christians would join his new Religion (perhaps this is why he wrote about Jesus and Abraham) but from the beginning Islam was regarded as a quite different Religion.

It is true that Jews (racially) and Arabs are regarded as both decendants of Abraham. But up till 1st Centuary converts to Judeaism was common. There is a special Rabinical "code phrase" in the Talmud as one is not to suggest a person is second class etc because of convert and not born a Jew. People still convert to Judaism, though not often.

Virtually all the original Christians were Jewish (While some claim Luke was a Gentile, others say he was first a convert to Judaism). No original Moslems AFAIK were Jewish or Christian. Though many Gentiles forget this and Jews have been persecuted, in fact Christianity is totally Jewish. Jews could validly regard Christians as a Jewsih Sect. (Christians would'nt agree)

You won't find any Al Quida or any Fundamentalist Moslem that regard Jewish Faith and Christianity as same religion. Also lots of Arabs are not Moslem (some are Christians, and some Jews today are certinally decended from Arabs). Lots of Moslems are not Arabs (Tell a Persian Moslem he is an Arab and see what reaction you get)

So the Abraham "connection" between Islam and Judaism is a "red herring" in the God Worshipping Stakes.

Yes there *IS* a very close connection between Christianity and Judaism, but none with either to Islam.

Victor · 20-08-2003 08:38PM

Originally posted by watty
Mohammed genuinely thought Jews and Christians would join his new Religion (perhaps this is why he wrote about Jesus and Abraham) but from the beginning Islam was regarded as a quite different Religion.

And they probably did. What religion were people in the middle east before they were Moslems? Surely not all of them were "other".

Originally posted by watty
People still convert to Judaism, though not often.

Actually tens if not hundreds of thousands do. Both "loose" Jews coverting and immigrants of various types going to Israel (admittedly not all for religious reasons). Isn't there also some criteria that to be Jewish you need to be born of a Jewish mother and that everyone with a Jewish father (only, not mother) must "convert" into Judaism?

Originally posted by watty
Virtually all the original Christians were Jewish (While some claim Luke was a Gentile, others say he was first a convert to Judaism). No original Moslems AFAIK were Jewish or Christian.

It depends on how "original" you go?

Originally posted by watty
Yes there *IS* a very close connection between Christianity and Judaism, but none with either to Islam.

There is connection, it is a matter of degree.

Yoda · 20-08-2003 08:50PM

Muslims believe that God reveals His Will to His prophets. Among those prophets are named Abraham, Jesus, and Muhammad. A Christian or a Jew might choose not to recognize the Muslim revelation, but it's absurd to say that it isn't the same God.

Thor and Ganesha are different gods from the I AM THAT I AM who is worshipped by Jews, Christians and Muslims alike.

Yoda · 20-08-2003 08:54PM

Originally posted by Victor
And they probably did. What religion were people in the middle east before they were Moslems?

Zoroastrians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Hittites, Greeks, Romans....

Victor · 20-08-2003 09:20PM

Originally posted by Yoda
Zoroastrians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Hittites, Greeks, Romans....

What not a Jew nor Christian among them?

watty · 20-08-2003 09:37PM

Originally posted by Yoda
Zoroastrians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Hittites, Greeks, Romans....

And Jews and Christians, who stayed Jews and Christians or got killed because Islam worships a different God.. Allah.

Admitedly the Jews don't call Him "Jehovah" (In fact the don't name God at all, which is why the Christian translation went astray.) The Hebrew letters are Y H W H (when transliterated to Roman alphabet). The "W" letter in Hebrew is nomally rendered V. THe Y letter can be renderd I or J (Y'Shua = Jesus = Isus). Norammly the Hebrew has dots to show the vowels. These are left out on the name of God. But it is a similar "root" word to the Hebrew verb "to Be" The discussion with Moses about name of God is play on words, a pun. The Bible is full of these. Deborah is "like" Bee in Hebrew her friends name Jael is like Hebrew for Goat. The earliest "Psalm" structure verses in Bible are their victor song, abut saving the Land of Milk & Honey (Goat & Bee)

So we can make a guess at name of God. It is not Allah. Yahweh is a bit closer than Jehovah (Both are used in English Bible versions, Allah never is). Both are close enough to annoy Ultra Orthodox Jews who will even write G_D and not at all use the four letters unless copying scripture. They won't say it either. H'Shem is favored (Means "The Name") as a "nickname" for the name of God.
Hallelu Ya: Hallel = Praise. Ya = God (name to Holy to use singing!)
El is another older word meaning God. It isn't His name either, just as Lord or Ya isn't. Words that end in "El" mean "whatever of God" Micha-el, Samu-el, Isra-el, Rach-el

Allah is what Islam say is the Name of God and there is no other God than Allah.

This is not the name of the God Jews and Christians worship.

Most of the people going to Israel (From Russia etc) even if not religious or "worshipers" are regarded as Jewish. They do not need to convert.

I lived in Israel over 1 year and was only Christian in a Company with 1 secular Jew and rest Orthodox. VERY few GENTILES today convert to Judaism.

Type sof Jews in Israel:
1) There are Secular Jews (Majority in Israel).
2) Orthodox
3) Various incompatible Ultra Orthodox
4) Conservative
5) Reformed
6) Messianic Congregations (Bigger than Orthodox want to be reminded of). These are Christians who are Jewish and to varying extent practice Jewish style Christianity.

You can't "convert" to 1 or 6 as such, You can only be born a secular Jew easily. 2000 years ago Christains decided a Gentile could not be category (6) easily (Unless you had converted to Judiasm first which was deemed BY THE JEWS to be unneccesary.

(6) Arn't referred to as Christian Converts either, mostly nowadays.

Converting to (5) or (4) in USA is not too hard. Converting from Gentile to (2) or (3) is about as easy as a London Buddist becomming an Amish Christian. Not easy and unlikely. A Convert to (5) or (4) comming to Israel may have an uphill battle getting recognised as Jewish.

If you want to be resident in Israel under Jewish right of Return and you are a Goy (Gentile, non-Jew) you best pick a good Orthodox Rabbi in Israel (2) (A 3 would be better but he would need a lot of convincing) and study hard for a while and keep jewish law inc 100% Kosher (which is hard even for Jews). If you start with a Jewish Girlfriend then you almost automatically disqualified (suspect motives). Lads need a small operation too. Girls don't.

No not many Gentiles "convert" to Judaism anymore!

Yoda · 20-08-2003 11:20PM

I'm afraid, Watty, that you're just wrong. allâh means 'the god', being derived from al 'the' and ilâh 'god'. 'elôhim is the plural of 'elôah 'god'. Etymologically, the two words are the same.

Strictly speaking, both of them are titles, rather than names, in origin.

Compare the Hebrew translation of Qur'ân 3:2 Elohim en eloh mibaladaiv ha-chai ha-qayam with the Arabic: allâhu la ilaha ila huwal hayyul qayyum 'God! There is no god but he, the living, the self-subsisting, eternal'. Hebrew-speaking Muslims call God Elohim. Likewise, Arabic-speaking Christians and Arabic-speaking Jews call God Allâh.

The Arabic translation of Genesis 1:1 begins fî al-badi' khalaqa allahu as-samâwât wa al-ard...

Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same deity. They understand that deity differently. They disagree about that deity's revelations. But it is the same one, and maybe there would be a little more peace and tolerance in our world if people would recognize that.

The rest of your post, is about "race" and "nationality" and is off topic at best.

watty · 21-08-2003 05:10PM

yes there are Arabic translations of Bible, but good Moslems NEVER read the bible.

A Hebrew translation of Arabic or anything else religious not partaining to Jewish or Christian beliefs is going to be contentious in what hebrew words are used.

The bible uses very derrogetary names for "other gods". A Quran translator to Hebrew is obviously not going to use them..

Quote:
'elôhim is the plural of 'elôah 'god'

Interesting title for hebrew Monothesitc worshipers to use. Of course Christians Have Trinity: Father/Son / Spirit. Islam totally rejects this.

You can have an interesting discussion with a Rabbi about "elôhim".

Anyway much as it has been fun, you may add the last word as I have other stuff to do. However you are in a very small minority opinion that Islam and Christianity/Judaism worship the same God.

I'll agree that Jews and Christians worship the same God. But it does not make them the same religion. Though "Messianc Jews" muddy the waters on that argument more than most fundamentalist (non-liberal) Jews and Christians would like.

JustHalf · 21-08-2003 05:32PM

Yoda, not the same God. Just because the Q'uran states it is doesn't imply that Christians believe it

Victor · 21-08-2003 10:10PM

Does it really matter? I know of course on certain levels it does, but ultimately each of the three has a central remit of "be nice to people".

Yoda · 21-08-2003 10:48PM

JustHalf disputed
Yoda, not the same God. Just because the Q'uran states it is doesn't imply that Christians believe it

Right. You agree with what I said then. "Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same deity. They understand that deity differently. They disagree about that deity's revelations. But it is the same one, and maybe there would be a little more peace and tolerance in our world if people would recognize that."

What you've said is that you don't believe that the God you worship revealed His Will to Mohammed, and that he is therefore not a prophet of your God. That does not mean that Mohammed and Muslims don't believe that it is the same God.

Now, you could suggest that it was a different God who revealed His Will, but that wouldn't be very monotheistic, I think.

You wouldn't want to be guilty of heresy, would you?

It seems to me to have been demonstrated that that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the God of Abraham in different ways. Though some of them disagree as to whether God did reveal His Will to the others, it's just not on to suggest that no, the Muslims made up a different God to worship. They don't believe so, and it's not any body's right to tell them so.

Yoda · 21-08-2003 10:55PM

Originally posted by watty
yes there are Arabic translations of Bible, but good Moslems NEVER read the bible.

This is just incorrect. From A Handbook of Living Religions by John R. Hinnells, Pelican Books 1984: "Prophets are said to descend from Abraham, the first monotheist and thus the fiurst 'Muslim' ([a word which means] one fully surrendered to God alone), and each is said to have been given a Book or scripture (kitab). The Torah of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus receive special attention in the Qur'an and in later Islamic belief, but the Psalms of David, the 'scrolls of Abraham' and others are mentioned briefly in the Qur'an and are assumed for each prophet." This hardly describes a prohibition against reading the bible.

Is the God of Islam the Christian God?

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