Is the God of Islam the Christian God?

Yoda

As a Buddhist I found the census results to be pretty disappointing. A great many people were lumped together into "other" and I doubt very much that the Sikhs and the Ásatrú Norse neopagans think that's appropriate. For my part I think that describing "Lutheran" and "Baptist" and "Roman Catholic" -- and for that matter "Muslim" and "Jew" as different religions is pretty silly. They're all devotees of the God of Abraham, after all.

JustHalf

Obviously this is nonsense.

Typedef

Obviously this is nonsense.

What? How?

JustHalf

Well, to say that Christianity, Judaism and Islam shouldn't be classed as seperate religions is to spout nonsense. It's like saying English and German shouldn't be classed as seperate languages (or to a lesser extent, C++ and Perl).

"Other" is a heading used to prevent massively verbose reports. That's pretty much the main reason for its use. To be insulted by being thrown in under the heading "other" is to be insulted by a matter of practicality.

Yoda

I don't see how it's nonsense at all. It is clear that a person who worships Thor and Odin practices a demonstrably different religion than one who worships Ganesha. Both of those religions describe the creation of the world in completely different ways.

Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the God of Abraham, who made the world himself (Jeremiah said (I think) as a potter makes a pot), who reveals his wishes to us through prophets, and who wants His Will to be Done. The details as to the rules to follow differ among them, and the authority of those who are imparting God's differs as well -- and they differ very considerably. But at their most basic level, these "religions" have more in common (i.e. the same god) than not. Methinks that a little attention to this detail would bring about a little more peace and understanding in the world.

I didn't say I was insulted by the Census results. I said I was disappointed. A little bit more granularity on the side of minority respondants would balance out all the detail on the Christian sects.

JustHalf

But "Other" isn't a religion!

I don't understand your calls for balance. The census results clearly show an unbalance, an uneven distribution of members of religions.

By the way, with just a little more vagueness you could cover every single monotheistic religion with that paragraph. A little more, you cover every religion. After all, it's all in the details, which as you say don't matter.

Yoda

I am aware that the census results clearly show an unbalance, an uneven distribution of members of religions. I was saying that I was disappointed that a bit more detail on the minority religions would have been nice to see. (That's not the same thing as saying that we should see all four million responses.)

JustHalf

I'm sure there's a way for you to get that information. Freedom of Information Act?

Yoda

JustHalf a dúirt
By the way, with just a little more vagueness you could cover every single monotheistic religion with that paragraph. A little more, you cover every religion. After all, it's all in the details, which as you say don't matter.

What you say here isn't correct. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are monotheistic, but the point is that they worship the same god. Sikhism is monotheistic, but that god doesn't have anything do to with Abraham. A monotheistic religion which revered a goddess would not be the same religion as that of Abraham's god.

JustHalf

Christians, Jews and Muslims worship the same god, only as far as Muslims are concerned. I certainly don't believe it.

Yoda

That doesn't make any sense at all. Jews claim that the God of Abraham revealed the commandments to him. Christians claim that the same God spoke to John the baptist and had a very special relationship with Jesus. Muslims claim that the very same God spoke to Muhammad.

You may not accept the validity of the revelation to Muhammad (or to Joseph Smith for that matter) but you can't deny that it's the same God that they are worshipping.

Sangre

What are you talking about Yoda?

I think a certain Jesus changes the nature of Judaism and Christianity....along with the New Testement.

These 'Other' people are so werid sometimes.

Yoda

I'm saying that the God of Abraham is the one worshipped by Jews, Christians, and Muslims. I'm saying that there aren't three different gods there being worshipped. They all worship the one who made Adam. It's the same Big Dude. Not like in Hinduism where Ganesha has an elephant's head and four arms and all. Clearly he is a different deity than the guy who got Noah to build the ark and all that.

Jesus changed the way that some people (i.e. Christians) looked at Judaism. He didn't change Judaism though. That's why we still have Jews, who deny that the gospels form a revelation from God. By the same token, Muhammad changed the way that some people (i.e. Muslims) looked at Judaism and Christianity. He didn't change those religions though.

But they all worship I AM THAT I AM. That God.

(Heavens, this is easy enough to understand.)

seamus

Originally posted by Sangre
What are you talking about Yoda?

I think a certain Jesus changes the nature of Judaism and Christianity....along with the New Testement.

I think the point is that the God is still the same. Christians see Jesus as the Son of God, and Jews see him as a prophet. From there, Christianity skews away from Judeaism, but it's still essentially the same God.

Does anyone else find the Census results a bit off-trend? In theory, there should be no survey more accurate than a census, but every other survey I'd seen in the last two years put the number of Catholics in Ireland at around 60%, not the 90-odd% that the census seems to show. IMO, that would be primarily down to the mammy factor (ie The mother fills out the census for the entire household, putting in all her kids as Catholic). IMO, some people would also feel obliged to put in Catholic, even though they don't practice anymore. Even my gf gave out to me when I put NONE under that section. I promptly told her to f*ck off.

Yoda

The problem with censuses is that they are only ever as good as the questions asked. Ireland has done the same lacklustre job of setting forth census questions as most countries do. More attention is given to making the form easy to fill out in a short time than is given to making the questions accurate.

The language question is one such example. A proper language question will recognize that some people are natively bilingual from birth (having a mother tongue and a father tongue), and certainly the question should have allowed the respondants to give opinions about other languages. How many Russian speakers do we have? How many Hausa speakers? For social and educational grounds these questions are important. Interestingly, the Soviets did a great job of asking language questions.

If the religion question were more honest it would allow people to more accurately describe what kind of "catholics" they are. Active, Lapsed, Once-a-year.... that kind of thing.

Lukin Black

Originally posted by Yoda
The problem with censuses is that they are only ever as good as the questions asked. Ireland has done the same lacklustre job of setting forth census questions as most countries do. More attention is given to making the form easy to fill out in a short time than is given to making the questions accurate.

But it has to be short - as it is I think they're pushing it. There's only so much that people want to say about themselves before they start going "WTF do they need to know that for?". Even at what it was, some of the questions were

Originally posted by Yoda
If the religion question were more honest it would allow people to more accurately describe what kind of "catholics" they are. Active, Lapsed, Once-a-year.... that kind of thing.

In addition, a question like that could be uncomfortable - I'd say many people lapse without realising it, and having to question themselves out of the blue wouldn't be nice..

Yoda

A census has got to explain on page 1 the reasons for asking, which are not idle curiosity. A proper language question would assist the department of education in ensuring that educational materials were available for significant minorities in the State. Oregon does this for its large Hmong community, if I recall correctly, and Sweden may do so for its large Somali community.

According to the preliminary census results, a fair number of people indicated that they were lapsed RC and lapsed CofI anyway.

And hey, why should anyone be shielded from considering his or her life? Shunning "uncomfortable" questions? Well it seems to me that a census ought to be about realism, not wishfulness.

watty

Methodists are sort of connected to Apostolic succession too.

Judeaism, Islam and Christianity do have a connecting thread.

Islam though, while asserting Mohammed is the Final Prophet condriticts Judaism and Christianity.

The 1st council of Jerusalem examined the relationship between Judaism (different them from now) and the Followers of Yashua H'Mashia (Jesus the Christ). They conculded Gentiles need not become Jews.

Paul later examined issue of Jewish ritual in Christian Church and concluded that followers where free to observe or not observe according to own consience. Islam does not recognise any such right. A Jew or Christian must convert to Islam.

Some branches of Christian Church do not require any "conversion" of Jews, just that they accept teaching regarding Yeshua. This is not true of Islam. Christianity teachs that (Even in New testement) Judaism and Christianity are different "religions" but that some day the wild and cultivated olive branchs (Jews and Christian Gentiles) will somehow be reuinted in one olive tree.

Christians have wrong persecuted Jews in the past. Jews understandbly have been very negative about Christianity. Both regard Islam in almost same Light as Jehova Witnesses, Bahai or Mormons.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are definately three separate religions. Within in some fairly minority sub groups there are close connections between Judaism practising Jews, Christian (Messianic) Jews and Gentile Christians.

Jews and Christians in whole history of Islam, have never accepted Islam as a related religion, though it is true that Islam claim to revere Abraham, worship same God and claim Jesus as a Prophet.

Claiming these three major religions are one because of Abraham is about as logical as claiming Hindu and Seik are same because people in India do them.


I agree that "other" is not a very usefull category other than indicating percentage not covered by the listed "Religions".

(I would not Regard Roman Catholic and Presbyterian as separate religions, though by background closer to the Presbyterian side of that theological fence than Roman. Despite claims of some Prodestants , Catholics a not all apostate, nor does any one branch of Christianity be immune from apostasy etc.).

Don't judge Jesus by the Church or its members, but on his own merit!

Yoda

Claiming these three major religions are one because of Abraham is about as logical as claiming Hindu and Seik are same because people in India do them.

It is perfectly logical. I claim nothing but a fact: that they all worship the same God, and that by any yardstick that makes them more similar than different. Where they like to disagree is in how and to whom their God reveals His Will, but he's the same Big Guy.

Sikhs don't worship the elephant-headed god Ganesha, for instance. Sikhism is very largely monotheistic. Its devotions are principally focussed on their holy book the Guru Granth Sahib.

watty

But Christians and Jews would argue that Islam does not worship the same God.

The Quran may talk about Abraham and the Prophets and God, but not in a fashion Recognisable in Torah (book of Law in OT), or Tenach (Entire OT). The Jewish English translations form Hebrew and Aramiac of Tenach are very similar to Christian "Old Testement" translations of Hebrew and Aramiac (Sometimes Catholic Translators refer to later Latin editions when a passage is unclear).

Jews and Christians study the same book essentially about God. The Tenach/Old Testement.
(The Christians have a small extra part which is 4 accounts of Jesus preaching (Gospels) and a collection of early Church letters, and the Book of Revelation which is a bit like Daniel.)

Jews in Israel in College even study the Christian New Testment too for material on 1st Centuary Isreali life.

Islamic followers do not study these books. Their book describes a different God, while mentioning Abraham and Jesus. Mohammed genuinely thought Jews and Christians would join his new Religion (perhaps this is why he wrote about Jesus and Abraham) but from the beginning Islam was regarded as a quite different Religion.

It is true that Jews (racially) and Arabs are regarded as both decendants of Abraham. But up till 1st Centuary converts to Judeaism was common. There is a special Rabinical "code phrase" in the Talmud as one is not to suggest a person is second class etc because of convert and not born a Jew. People still convert to Judaism, though not often.

Virtually all the original Christians were Jewish (While some claim Luke was a Gentile, others say he was first a convert to Judaism). No original Moslems AFAIK were Jewish or Christian. Though many Gentiles forget this and Jews have been persecuted, in fact Christianity is totally Jewish. Jews could validly regard Christians as a Jewsih Sect. (Christians would'nt agree)

You won't find any Al Quida or any Fundamentalist Moslem that regard Jewish Faith and Christianity as same religion. Also lots of Arabs are not Moslem (some are Christians, and some Jews today are certinally decended from Arabs). Lots of Moslems are not Arabs (Tell a Persian Moslem he is an Arab and see what reaction you get)

So the Abraham "connection" between Islam and Judaism is a "red herring" in the God Worshipping Stakes.

Yes there *IS* a very close connection between Christianity and Judaism, but none with either to Islam.

Victor

Originally posted by watty
Mohammed genuinely thought Jews and Christians would join his new Religion (perhaps this is why he wrote about Jesus and Abraham) but from the beginning Islam was regarded as a quite different Religion.

And they probably did. What religion were people in the middle east before they were Moslems? Surely not all of them were "other".

Originally posted by watty
People still convert to Judaism, though not often.

Actually tens if not hundreds of thousands do. Both "loose" Jews coverting and immigrants of various types going to Israel (admittedly not all for religious reasons). Isn't there also some criteria that to be Jewish you need to be born of a Jewish mother and that everyone with a Jewish father (only, not mother) must "convert" into Judaism?

Originally posted by watty
Virtually all the original Christians were Jewish (While some claim Luke was a Gentile, others say he was first a convert to Judaism). No original Moslems AFAIK were Jewish or Christian.

It depends on how "original" you go?

Originally posted by watty
Yes there *IS* a very close connection between Christianity and Judaism, but none with either to Islam.

There is connection, it is a matter of degree.

Yoda

Muslims believe that God reveals His Will to His prophets. Among those prophets are named Abraham, Jesus, and Muhammad. A Christian or a Jew might choose not to recognize the Muslim revelation, but it's absurd to say that it isn't the same God.

Thor and Ganesha are different gods from the I AM THAT I AM who is worshipped by Jews, Christians and Muslims alike.

Yoda

Originally posted by Victor
And they probably did. What religion were people in the middle east before they were Moslems?

Zoroastrians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Hittites, Greeks, Romans....

Victor

Originally posted by Yoda
Zoroastrians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Hittites, Greeks, Romans....

What not a Jew nor Christian among them?

watty

Originally posted by Yoda
Zoroastrians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Hittites, Greeks, Romans....

And Jews and Christians, who stayed Jews and Christians or got killed because Islam worships a different God.. Allah.

Admitedly the Jews don't call Him "Jehovah" (In fact the don't name God at all, which is why the Christian translation went astray.) The Hebrew letters are Y H W H (when transliterated to Roman alphabet). The "W" letter in Hebrew is nomally rendered V. THe Y letter can be renderd I or J (Y'Shua = Jesus = Isus). Norammly the Hebrew has dots to show the vowels. These are left out on the name of God. But it is a similar "root" word to the Hebrew verb "to Be" The discussion with Moses about name of God is play on words, a pun. The Bible is full of these. Deborah is "like" Bee in Hebrew her friends name Jael is like Hebrew for Goat. The earliest "Psalm" structure verses in Bible are their victor song, abut saving the Land of Milk & Honey (Goat & Bee)

So we can make a guess at name of God. It is not Allah. Yahweh is a bit closer than Jehovah (Both are used in English Bible versions, Allah never is). Both are close enough to annoy Ultra Orthodox Jews who will even write G_D and not at all use the four letters unless copying scripture. They won't say it either. H'Shem is favored (Means "The Name") as a "nickname" for the name of God.
Hallelu Ya: Hallel = Praise. Ya = God (name to Holy to use singing!)
El is another older word meaning God. It isn't His name either, just as Lord or Ya isn't. Words that end in "El" mean "whatever of God" Micha-el, Samu-el, Isra-el, Rach-el

Allah is what Islam say is the Name of God and there is no other God than Allah.

This is not the name of the God Jews and Christians worship.


Most of the people going to Israel (From Russia etc) even if not religious or "worshipers" are regarded as Jewish. They do not need to convert.

I lived in Israel over 1 year and was only Christian in a Company with 1 secular Jew and rest Orthodox. VERY few GENTILES today convert to Judaism.

Type sof Jews in Israel:
1) There are Secular Jews (Majority in Israel).
2) Orthodox
3) Various incompatible Ultra Orthodox
4) Conservative
5) Reformed
6) Messianic Congregations (Bigger than Orthodox want to be reminded of). These are Christians who are Jewish and to varying extent practice Jewish style Christianity.

You can't "convert" to 1 or 6 as such, You can only be born a secular Jew easily. 2000 years ago Christains decided a Gentile could not be category (6) easily (Unless you had converted to Judiasm first which was deemed BY THE JEWS to be unneccesary.

(6) Arn't referred to as Christian Converts either, mostly nowadays.

Converting to (5) or (4) in USA is not too hard. Converting from Gentile to (2) or (3) is about as easy as a London Buddist becomming an Amish Christian. Not easy and unlikely. A Convert to (5) or (4) comming to Israel may have an uphill battle getting recognised as Jewish.

If you want to be resident in Israel under Jewish right of Return and you are a Goy (Gentile, non-Jew) you best pick a good Orthodox Rabbi in Israel (2) (A 3 would be better but he would need a lot of convincing) and study hard for a while and keep jewish law inc 100% Kosher (which is hard even for Jews). If you start with a Jewish Girlfriend then you almost automatically disqualified (suspect motives). Lads need a small operation too. Girls don't.

No not many Gentiles "convert" to Judaism anymore!

Yoda

I'm afraid, Watty, that you're just wrong. allâh means 'the god', being derived from al 'the' and ilâh 'god'. 'elôhim is the plural of 'elôah 'god'. Etymologically, the two words are the same.

Strictly speaking, both of them are titles, rather than names, in origin.

Compare the Hebrew translation of Qur'ân 3:2 Elohim en eloh mibaladaiv ha-chai ha-qayam with the Arabic: allâhu la ilaha ila huwal hayyul qayyum 'God! There is no god but he, the living, the self-subsisting, eternal'. Hebrew-speaking Muslims call God Elohim. Likewise, Arabic-speaking Christians and Arabic-speaking Jews call God Allâh.

The Arabic translation of Genesis 1:1 begins fî al-badi' khalaqa allahu as-samâwât wa al-ard...

Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same deity. They understand that deity differently. They disagree about that deity's revelations. But it is the same one, and maybe there would be a little more peace and tolerance in our world if people would recognize that.

The rest of your post, is about "race" and "nationality" and is off topic at best.

watty

yes there are Arabic translations of Bible, but good Moslems NEVER read the bible.

A Hebrew translation of Arabic or anything else religious not partaining to Jewish or Christian beliefs is going to be contentious in what hebrew words are used.

The bible uses very derrogetary names for "other gods". A Quran translator to Hebrew is obviously not going to use them..


Quote:
'elôhim is the plural of 'elôah 'god'

Interesting title for hebrew Monothesitc worshipers to use. Of course Christians Have Trinity: Father/Son / Spirit. Islam totally rejects this.

You can have an interesting discussion with a Rabbi about "elôhim".


Anyway much as it has been fun, you may add the last word as I have other stuff to do. However you are in a very small minority opinion that Islam and Christianity/Judaism worship the same God.

I'll agree that Jews and Christians worship the same God. But it does not make them the same religion. Though "Messianc Jews" muddy the waters on that argument more than most fundamentalist (non-liberal) Jews and Christians would like.

JustHalf

Yoda, not the same God. Just because the Q'uran states it is doesn't imply that Christians believe it

Victor

Does it really matter? I know of course on certain levels it does, but ultimately each of the three has a central remit of "be nice to people".

Yoda

JustHalf disputed
Yoda, not the same God. Just because the Q'uran states it is doesn't imply that Christians believe it

Right. You agree with what I said then. "Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same deity. They understand that deity differently. They disagree about that deity's revelations. But it is the same one, and maybe there would be a little more peace and tolerance in our world if people would recognize that."

What you've said is that you don't believe that the God you worship revealed His Will to Mohammed, and that he is therefore not a prophet of your God. That does not mean that Mohammed and Muslims don't believe that it is the same God.

Now, you could suggest that it was a different God who revealed His Will, but that wouldn't be very monotheistic, I think. You wouldn't want to be guilty of heresy, would you?

It seems to me to have been demonstrated that that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the God of Abraham in different ways. Though some of them disagree as to whether God did reveal His Will to the others, it's just not on to suggest that no, the Muslims made up a different God to worship. They don't believe so, and it's not any body's right to tell them so.

Yoda

Originally posted by watty
yes there are Arabic translations of Bible, but good Moslems NEVER read the bible.

This is just incorrect. From A Handbook of Living Religions by John R. Hinnells, Pelican Books 1984: "Prophets are said to descend from Abraham, the first monotheist and thus the fiurst 'Muslim' ([a word which means] one fully surrendered to God alone), and each is said to have been given a Book or scripture (kitab). The Torah of Moses and the Gospel of Jesus receive special attention in the Qur'an and in later Islamic belief, but the Psalms of David, the 'scrolls of Abraham' and others are mentioned briefly in the Qur'an and are assumed for each prophet." This hardly describes a prohibition against reading the bible.

JustHalf

Originally posted by Yoda
Right. You agree with what I said then. "Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same deity. They understand that deity differently. They disagree about that deity's revelations. But it is the same one, and maybe there would be a little more peace and tolerance in our world if people would recognize that."

What you've said is that you don't believe that the God you worship revealed His Will to Mohammed, and that he is therefore not a prophet of your God. That does not mean that Mohammed and Muslims don't believe that it is the same God.

Yes, but belief does not equal truth. And, if a Christians and Muslims believe two different, contradictory things, then at least one of them must be wrong.

The logic is pretty simple here.

Originally posted by Yoda
Now, you could suggest that it was a different God who revealed His Will, but that wouldn't be very monotheistic, I think. You wouldn't want to be guilty of heresy, would you?

Yeah, I'd never suggest it was a different God who revealed his will...

Originally posted by Yoda
It seems to me to have been demonstrated that that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the God of Abraham in different ways. Though some of them disagree as to whether God did reveal His Will to the others, it's just not on to suggest that no, the Muslims made up a different God to worship. They don't believe so, and it's not any body's right to tell them so.

Sorry, this has to be a joke.

There's a vast swathe of difference between tolerating someone's opinions (good thing), and taking the view of "well, I can't tell you I think you're wrong even if I think you are" (bad thing).

I'm not going to revoke my right to disagree with someone in their presence, to their face or otherwise directly.

Crikey, if the world's gotten to the stage where you can't disagree with someone "because it's disrespectful of their opinions" then it's up the creek without a paddle.

Yoda

JustHalf countered
Yes, but belief does not equal truth. And, if a Christians and Muslims believe two different, contradictory things, then at least one of them must be wrong.

Not so. Both of them might be wrong. Or both of them might be right, because the apparent contradiction is only apparent.

There's a vast swathe of difference between tolerating someone's opinions (good thing), and taking the view of "well, I can't tell you I think you're wrong even if I think you are" (bad thing).

I didn't say that. You and others had said "Muslims don't worship the same God that Christians and Jews do". That isn't the case. It's the same God. It's just that they believe he revealed His Will to the prophet Muhammad, and you don't. My point is that it is arrogant (at best) to claim that their God is not the God of Abraham, however mistaken you may consider them about the authority of their Qur'ân.

The other thing was that the notion that he is a different God because what they call him in their language is different from what Jews call him in a different language is just igorant of the facts, particularly in light of the etymological identity of ilâh and elôah.

JustHalf

Christians believe in a Trinity... the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is sometimes referred to as "the three in one". Each is God, and yet the group is God.

The biggest distinction between Christianity and Judaism is that Christians believe that God's Son (who was God) came to Earth to save our sins.

Islam, which you imply is an extension of Christianity, denies this basic plank of Christianity. The "Jesus" in the Q'oran specifically denies being the Son of God. How can an extension remove its support?

This is only one (albeit the most major) of the contradictions between Christianity and Islam. They are not the same.

Let's get to your points then:

Not so. Both of them might be wrong. Or both of them might be right, because the apparent contradiction is only apparent.

Don't be silly. I specifically said at least one must be wrong. The group defined by at least one includes the group defined by both.

The contradiction is more than apparent, and this is obvious to everybody else here.

What you are trying to say is that Christians and Muslims worship the same God, they just don't believe their God is the same.

This kind of belief is inconsistent with both Christianity and Islam. Very much so with Christianity. I know I believe that Muslims have got it wrong. I'm also pretty sure that a lot of Muslims believe Christianity is wrong. That's fair enough.

My point is that it is arrogant (at best) to claim that their God is not the God of Abraham, however mistaken you may consider them about the authority of their Qur'ân.

This is retarded. If I consider the Islam to be an invented religion, then I must believe that their God is an invention.

It would be incorrect of me to say that Islam does not claim to have an Abrahamic root. But just because somebody claims something doesn't mean I have to accept it. Particularly if I believe Islam is incorrect.

There's wanting to people to respect the beliefs of others, and there's wanting to world wrapped up in cotton wool so we never have any arguments.

I don't want a world where all beliefs (spiritual or otherwise) are beyond question. It would be a stagnant hell-hole.

Lukin Black

Originally posted by JustHalf
Islam, which you imply is an extension of Christianity, denies this basic plank of Christianity. The "Jesus" in the Q'oran specifically denies being the Son of God. How can an extension remove its support?

To be fair I don't think Yoda ever implied that. He was saying that they have the same root, much like German, English and Dutch have a common root, but none is an 'extension' of any other.

Originally posted by JustHalf
What you are trying to say is that Christians and Muslims worship the same God, they just don't believe their God is the same.

This kind of belief is inconsistent with both Christianity and Islam. Very much so with Christianity. I know I believe that Muslims have got it wrong. I'm also pretty sure that a lot of Muslims believe Christianity is wrong. That's fair enough.

I'm Christian, and I believe that Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God, but have different views and ideas on/about God, and how to worship Him, etc. I don't see why this would be incompatible with Christianity, but I would be interested in hearing any reasons why they may be.

nadir

What you are trying to say is that Christians and Muslims worship the same God, they just don't believe their God is the same.

This kind of belief is inconsistent with both Christianity and Islam. Very much so with Christianity. I know I believe that Muslims have got it wrong. I'm also pretty sure that a lot of Muslims believe Christianity is wrong. That's fair enough.

hmmm.
I dont mean to be a bigot here, obviously U have your opinions and thats fine.

But I just cant get this idea out of my head. Do you not find it a little strange that all these religions think they are the true belief. I mean taking your geo-graphical position into account, you come from a christian area and you are christian, and you think the other religions are incorrect, or at least mis guided. Does it not seem that there is something wrong. I suppose basically what im trying to get at is that religion is a way of life and provides people with guidance, but how does a christian for example gain guidance in life when there are so many possible doubts?

Lukin Black

Originally posted by nadir

But I just cant get this idea out of my head. Do you not find it a little strange that all these religions think they are the true belief.

If they didn't, would there be any point to them? If you were a Catholic and thought that Judaism was the One True Faith®™, would you remain a Catholic? I don't think so.

Originally posted by nadir
suppose basically what im trying to get at is that religion is a way of life and provides people with guidance, but how does a christian for example gain guidance in life when there are so many possible doubts?

Well the guidance is supposed to come from the clergy of the particular branch of Christianity. The doubts are to be conquered by faith and prayer. At least that's what I think.

Yoda

Please try reading what I write rather than writing things into it.

What I said, at the very beginning, was that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God, namely the God of Abraham, whose chief attributes are (1) creator of the world and (2) revealer of His Will through prophets. Jews, Christians, and Muslims disagree about how God does this. Muslims, for instance, believe that God revealed His Will through the prophet Jesus, and later through the prophet Muhammad; indeed Muslims reject the "Son of God" business as heretical from their point of view. They think that it was an error that some Christians made. (They also happen to reject Jewish kashrut law – the food regulations.) Christians generally take a different view. They believe that Jesus was more than "just" a prophet.

But the God they are all talking about is the God of Abraham. So I haven't "got it wrong". You are welcome to believe that the Muslims are mistaken as to how they see Jesus' relation to God, and that they are mistaken in their belief that God spoke to Muhammad, but to claim that their God is a different one is simply fallacious.

If I consider the Islam to be an invented religion, then I must believe that their God is an invention.

No, you must only believe that they are mistaken in believing that God spoke to Muhammad. It is not encumbant upon you to believe that their God is ficticious.

It would be incorrect of me to say that Islam does not claim to have an Abrahamic root. But just because somebody claims something doesn't mean I have to accept it.

You can reject the validity of their claim to revelation and understanding of the nature of God, just as they do for Christian claims. But it does not make sense to say that they worship a different God.

I maintain that in worshipping the God of Abraham, Judaisim, Christianity, and Islam have more and common than not, and suppose that if people were to take that into account there might be a bit more tolerance and understanding in the world.

watty

Originally posted by JustHalf
<snip>

The biggest distinction between Christianity and Judaism is that Christians believe that God's Son (who was God) came to Earth to save our sins.

Islam, which you imply is an extension of Christianity, denies this basic plank of Christianity. The "Jesus" in the Q'oran specifically denies being the Son of God. How can an extension remove its support?

This is only one (albeit the most major) of the contradictions between Christianity and Islam. They are not the same.
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Let's get to your points then:

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It would be incorrect of me to say that Islam does not claim to have an Abrahamic root. But just because somebody claims something doesn't mean I have to accept it. Particularly if I believe Islam is incorrect.

There's wanting to people to respect the beliefs of others, and there's wanting to world wrapped up in cotton wool so we never have any arguments.

I don't want a world where all beliefs (spiritual or otherwise) are beyond question. It would be a stagnant hell-hole.

I can't beleive I have come back....

I'd say the ONLY significant difference between Judaism and Christianity is significance of Jesus. (BTW I never met an Orthodox Jew who denied Jesus existed and preached as reported in New testement, only Gentiles!)

There is another unpleasent viewpoint regarding "other gods" taken by some Jews, some Christians and the Old Testement.

That is that the "baals" (gods worshipped by other groups) are NOT just mistaken belief but much worse. Demons that are deceiving people. This unpopular , non-politically correct view is CLEARLY in the old testement and in some "competitions" between "preists" and God's prophets. So one possible and valid interpretation of Islam from Judeo/Christian perspective is that Isam's "Allah" is a demon "pretending" to be God.

You might not like this theory, Islam certinally wouldn't but it is internally self consistant logical explination for MAJOR contridictions between Islam and the succesive Judeo/ Christian revelation and belief systems.

A Jew can fit his/her belief system into Christianity without giving ANYTHING up of beleif. A Jew can say "I'd like for Jesus to have been the Messiah" or even Jesus is the Messiah.

A Christian or Jew can't become a Moslem without denying most of Judeo/Christian interpretation of Bible and indeed the Bible.

Quran does contridict the Old Testement.


A Moslem to become a Christian or Jew will have to reject a major amount of Islamic teaching.

Occasionally a "Chrisitian" becomes a Jewish Believer. This is not common for someone with NO jewish background. I have no idea if they are asked to deny that Jesus is the Messiah.

I'm not a bigot or racist, but this does NOT mean that I can accept what other people say I ought to belieive.

You can believe what you want, I beleive what I want. That is freewill and a free society. Claiming that groups that obviously really worship a different God and and have diametrically opposed beleifs are really worhipping the same thing takes away freedom.

Actually all major or great or significant religions and societies have the SAME core morals.

That is opne of the arguements that ther must indeed be an absolute moral standard (like the Laws of Physics) and morals are not something you can make up like music or poetry.

The significant thing is that EVERYONE agrees:
Don't murder
Don't lust after anothers partner
Don't Steal
Honour your parents
Treat others as you would like to be treated (Love you nieghbour as yourself is in the Old Testement.)

Jesus only gave two new teaching NOT in Old Testement:
1) Love each other as I have loved you
2) I'm the Messiah (God).

If you don't think Jesus claimed to be God, then get a Rabbi to explain why the religious leaders in the New Testement were so upset! There are Gospel accounts that only shock when read if you are well studied Orthodox Jew.

Really the ONLY thing ultimately that Reglions differ on is who to worship / how you are saved / enlightend etc. So the problem Jews and Christians have with Islam is fairly insurmountable. They can only agree to differ peacabley, rather than agree to agree.


Read CS Lewis "The Last Battle"

Another theory is that the "One God" through waht is called "common grace" has revealed somewhat of himself or purposes in other religions (i.e. The Celic belief among pantheon of Celtic gods of the "Good God"). In this theory some odd religion someplace they "might" be worshipping the God or a Demon depending on the worshippers personal revelation. (See "The Last Battle" and the confused Calormen young soldier).

DadaKopf

Wouldn't anyone who says the Islamic God isn't the Christian God be sort of denying the whole 'one God thing'? If God exists and monotheism is correct, then surely God is God is God. There's no in between so any such argument is self-defeating.

What you're really discussing is whether the *idea* of God is the same for Muslims as it is for Christians, or Jews. So you're not really discussing God at all, you're discussing religion.

And, since religion is something which is based entirely on faith, attempting to justify the former through the latter is utterly pointless, unless you're studying linguistics or hermeneutics.

So you're really just arguing over semantics.

JustHalf

Not if they deny that the "god" described by Islam is really God, or close to it. Islam and Christianity contradict so much that only a crazy person would claim that both are descriptions of the same thing.

We are arguing meanings of words, obviously... but the meaning of the word "God" is important in this context.

watty

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Wouldn't anyone who says the Islamic God isn't the Christian God be sort of denying the whole 'one God thing'? If God exists and monotheism is correct, then surely God is God is God. There's no in between so any such argument is self-defeating.

What you're really discussing is whether the *idea* of God is the same for Muslims as it is for Christians, or Jews. So you're not really discussing God at all, you're discussing religion.

And, since religion is something which is based entirely on faith, attempting to justify the former through the latter is utterly pointless, unless you're studying linguistics or hermeneutics.

So you're really just arguing over semantics.

No.. because you can argue that even if you beleive there is only One True God:

That someone with different beleifs is either worshiping nothing at all, the same God in a Different way or a Demon.

Or both are decieved and there is more than one God (A hard posistion to argue) or there are no Gods (still hard but not just as hard to argue).

There are a lot of logical possiblities and most of them are unpleasent for one or other or both faiths.

Lukin Black

Originally posted by JustHalf
Not if they deny that the "god" described by Islam is really God, or close to it. Islam and Christianity contradict so much that only a crazy person would claim that both are descriptions of the same thing.

Do you mean it's crazy to say that both groups worship the same God? As I was saying above, I'm Christian, and I think we do. It's just that the way that they see God, and the way that we see God is different. At least that's the way I see it.

Nevyn

They are the same Gods the same Spark of the devine that sparked the creation of the universe and all life.

They are many faces or aspects to this
Deivintiy we all relate to it in diffrent ways.
Diffrent people , differnt cultures, diffrent times we see a different aspect and we worship in a different way.

There are many paths practices and faiths.

secret_squirrel

I think some of you are missing a subtle point here...there is no problem with you believing that the God of Islam isnt the Christian God.

However for any of you to deny or refuse to even consider the possibilty that they are one and the same is not only narrow minded but is actually breathtaking arrogance in assuming you or I are capable of fully understanding God. God by definition being a being that is greater than ourselves.
And if you agree that its impossible for anyone in this current physical existence to fully know God then you have admit to the possibility of the Christian God and the God of Islam being one and the same.

A belief in a God (or Gods) is no excuse to abrogate your responsibity to think for yourselves...by definition thinking for yourselves requires you to admit you maybe wrong or to atleast have doubts...after all Jesus did many times...would you claim to be better than Jesus?

JustHalf

How can we understand God? How can we understand anything about Him? How can we even claim that Jesus died for our sins on the cross?

Though I would never claim to completely understand God, we do know some things about him. Why is this particular point so special that you claim we cannot know this?

JustHalf

Interesting stuff from CARM.

Comparison between Christianity and Islam
More relevant is this description of the Trinity. The nature of this God is fundamentally different than the nature of the God described by Islam. They are not the same God. Islam rejects totally the idea that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are parts of the Godhead (they claim Jesus is neither the Son of God or divine, and that the Holy Spirit is in fact the arch-angel Gabriel).

The Muslim description of God is extremely different from the Christian. The Koran says that Christians are deceived when they believe (or deceive when they claim [I can't remember] ) when they claim Jesus is God.

Obviously I believe that the Christians are correct on this point (or else I'd be a Muslim

As the question of "who is god" gives massively different answers depending on which side you ask, how can one claim that both are the same?

Thaed's explanation covers far more than monotheistic religions, as she's well aware This belief requires some weird "meta-faith".

It's 2:16 in the morning, that's all the sense you're getting out of me now.

watty

As well as reading what the Bible says about God, I think Terry Pratchet's "Small Gods" (and also the other one were Granny Weatherwax defeats the vampires) have some good illustrations of the dangers of an over dogmatic religious zeal that actually forgets about loving people or loving God.

Yoda

JustHalf suggested
Interesting stuff from CARM.

Without trying to be rude – which I really don't want to be – I would say that I find the material on that site to be the worst kind of pseudo-intellectual bible-thumping apologetic guff that gives Christianity a very, very bad name indeed. Look at the following.

Which do you think will happen in the future? Will our nation encourage the development of Christian freedom or work to hinder it? Will any of the nations of the world humble themselves to serve the true God or will they promote one a world government, moral relativism, and/or false religions like Islam, Mormonism, Buddhism, etc.? Do any of you think that merely hoping someone else will make a difference will actually make a difference? If you do, you are self deceived. While the homosexuals have a united front, we Christians are fragmented into countless denominational groups. The woman's rights movement has done so much to damage the family and even to help Christian families disintegrate. The liberals in the media have contributed more than their share to social decay by promoting violent and immoral movies, TV, radio, etc., of which too many Christians partake. But here is a warning. This very comfort and security that we cherish in America is blinding us to the dangers ahead. What dangers? The dangers of bondage and oppression. We think that as long as things are okay now, that things will be okay in the future. Well, they won't be. History tells us that the enemy doesn't sleep and he always works to destroy God's people. Let's not sleep._ Let's not awaken one day to find ourselves in bondage to the political correctness of anyone who would define our right to speak of Christ right out of existence.

Hokay. Those evil Buddhists and homosexuals and women who want rights are planning to "enslave" the "Christians" and blot Jesus' name from the face of the earth. CARM's analysis of the differences between Christianity and Islam are just as specious, and just as unconvincing. I have in mind another example that I think I will post later which might be more helpful to the discussion.

Yoda

This is from a document that expresses Islamic beliefs about God:

God the exalted is one, not in the sense of number, but in the sense that He has no partner; He begetteth not and He is not begotten and there is none like unto Him. He resembles none of the created things, nor do any created things resemble Him. He has been from eternity and will be to eternity with His names and qualities, those which belong to His essence as well as those which belong to His action. Those which belong to His essence are: life, power, knowledge, speech, hearing, sight, and will. Those which belong to His action are: creating, sustaining, producing, renewing, making, and so on.

Now as a statement of devotional belief, I think that this passage is really rather beautiful. I also think that, while trinitarian Christians will tend to disagree with "He begetteth not and He is not begotten", I would be very surprised indeed to find that Christians or Jews disagreed with the content of this statement of devotion.

I think it is logically indefensible to suggest that the God of Abraham isn't the God worshipped by Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike. All of them believe that they are worshipping the God of Abraham. They may differ in how they try to understand that God, and in what they think that God has done to reveal His Will to the world, but at the root of it, they all worship the same God. To say otherwise is to miss, deeply, the point that we, in our imperfection, cannot know the I AM THAT I AM, the ultimate reality, with our puny little minds and hearts. We can aspire to. Jews, Christians, and Muslims can try to learn God's Will and try to do it, since that seems to be what God wants Jews, Christians, and Muslims to do.

JustHalf

Originally posted by Yoda
Without trying to be rude – which I really don't want to be – I would say that I find the material on that site to be the worst kind of pseudo-intellectual bible-thumping apologetic guff that gives Christianity a very, very bad name indeed. Look at the following.

<< snip >>

Hokay. Those evil Buddhists and homosexuals and women who want rights are planning to "enslave" the "Christians" and blot Jesus' name from the face of the earth. CARM's analysis of the differences between Christianity and Islam are just as specious, and just as unconvincing. I have in mind another example that I think I will post later which might be more helpful to the discussion.

What is this? I raise a point, and you answer it not by dealing with that point directly. You slur the character of my source, attack a point in their agenda that is easily attacked, and then claim that their comparisons between Christianity and Islam "are just as specious" without supporting this statement.

Stick to the topic at hand. If you believe their comparison between Christianity and Islam is flawed, then illustrate how. Crikey, if we were to dismiss everything said by people who sometimes say things we find stupid, we'd dismiss everything.

If a socialist tells me that we cannot reform and must revolt, and gives me a massively paranoid spiel about the world, I dismiss it because I strongly dissagree. But it would be immature and irrational to dismiss all other points they might raise because of this. Just because they cry "Revolt!" doesn't mean their points about the IMF and WTO are without merit.

Just because Muslims and Christians agree on some points about God does not make their Gods equal. Apples and oranges are both fruit, after all.