Horseracing questions for dummies

bobbyss · 17-03-2018 10:37AM #1

Handicaps! What's the point?

Usain Bolt was fantastic. The fastest man ... etc etc. He won most of his races
through, I suppose, talent and hard work. So why didn't he let the other runners have a two or three metre head start on him at the beginning of a race to even things up? What not have him wear extra heavy clothing instead to even things out. To hold him back. To make things fair.

If a horse is very fast through his talent and basic DNA why not let that natural speed and talent express itself? Why put weights on it to hold that talent back?
When a horse is handicapped, what criteria is used? How do they know how much weight to put on him?

When I look into a field and see a bunch of horses they all look the same to me. They all have four legs and so on.

Flatracing

This is where the horses run around a track very fast with no fences. Right?

National Hunt.

This is where the horses run around a few laps and jump over fences.

Do jockeys choose one rather than another? For example, Lester Pigott never won the Grand National. Right? He never was a National Hunt jockey? AP McCoy never won the Derby. Right? Was Piggott not brave enough to take those big jumps or what? Was McCoy not good enough to control a fast horse but instead preferred to win a million races by plodding along?

Can a jockey be both in fact?

Are horses different? Can the Grand National winner win the Derby too? Are some horses built differently?

What kind of horses do some farmers keep and why?

Gwynplaine · 17-03-2018 10:41AM

If there was no gambling, would anyone look at it?

Probably not.

DontThankMe · 17-03-2018 10:43AM

bobbyss wrote: »

Handicaps! What's the point?

Usain Bolt was fantastic. The fastest man ... etc etc. He won most of his races
through, I suppose, talent and hard work. So why didn't he let the other runners have a two or three metre head start on him at the beginning of a race to even things up? What not have him wear extra heavy clothing instead to even things out. To hold him back. To make things fair.

One of the reasons they won't handicap in athletic sports events. Is it would make people unmotivated to train harder and try to be their best. Why bother putting hours of training in on the track when you can just rely on the best athlete being handicapped and beating him because he won't be able to perform a lot better than you.

bobbyss · 17-03-2018 10:49AM

DontThankMe wrote: »

One of the reasons they won't handicap in athletic sports events. Is it would make people unmotivated to train harder and try to be their best. Why bother putting hours of training in on the track when you can just rely on the best athlete being handicapped and beating him because he won't be able to perform a lot better than you.

I don't understand your train of though here.

Isn't the point of handicapping to make things more even? If Bolt was handicapped then surely everyone else would train hard as the chances of him being caught are greater? Is that the principle behind it?

Alf Veedersane · 17-03-2018 10:56AM

bobbyss wrote: »

Are horses different?

No. They all have four legs and a head. It's just that some are forced into speed racing and some are forced into longer races with jumps.

The same was as Usain Bolt probably would have been world cross country champion if he was let do it by the lizard men.

Atoms for Peace · 17-03-2018 11:00AM

Horse racing is about gambling so I'd imagine handicapping has got more to do with evening out the odds.

Ken. · 17-03-2018 11:01AM

Generally jockeys start out on the flat and then go to the jumps. This is because flat jockeys are generally lighter. Up to about 9 stone where as jumps jockeys can go up to over 11 stone. Not taking anything away from them but it is easier weight wise to be a jumps jockey.

As Gwynplaine alluded to the handicap is to do with betting.

To put it as simple as possible would you back any other runner in the world in a race against Usain Bolt from the years 2009-2015. Likewise if the fastest horse won all the time then no one would go watch and no one would gamble.

Alf Veedersane · 17-03-2018 11:08AM

Conspectus wrote: »

Not taking anything away from them but it is easier weight wise to be a jumps jockey.

I don't think 'easier' is the word I'd use. I don't imagine too many jockeys find keeping the weight down easy. And I don't know if too many are particularly healthy in their approach to doing it.

bobbyss · 17-03-2018 11:12AM

Conspectus wrote: »

Generally jockeys start out on the flat and then go to the jumps. This is because flat jockeys are generally lighter. Up to about 9 stone where as jumps jockeys can go up to over 11 stone. Not taking anything away from them but it is easier weight wise to be a jumps jockey.

As Gwynplaine alluded to the handicap is to do with betting.

To put it as simple as possible would you back any other runner in the world in a race against Usain Bolt from the years 2009-2015. Likewise if the fastest horse won all the time then no one would go watch and no one would gamble.

Thanks and fair enough.

Why do normal, regular farmers keep horses? You drive down the country and see a few horses in a field. Not a stud farm mind you just a regular farm. I can't imagine the auld Ned in that field over there is ever going to win the Derby.

Why didn't Shergar run in the Grand National?

Honest questions.

Ken. · 17-03-2018 11:14AM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I don't think 'easier' is the word I'd use. I don't imagine too many jockeys find keeping the weight down easy. And I don't know if too many are particularly healthy in their approach to doing it.

I meant easier as in its easier to be 11 stone than 8 stone. I was born and raised in the Curragh and I remember years ago jockeys in the gym going in to the sauna wearing leather trousers and vests to make them sweat more. Not a lifestyle I'd wish on anyone.

Ken. · 17-03-2018 11:19AM

bobbyss wrote: »

Thanks and fair enough.

Why do normal, regular farmers keep horses? You drive down the country and see a few horses in a field. Not a stud farm mind you just a regular farm. I can't imagine the auld Ned in that field over there is ever going to win the Derby.

Why didn't Shergar run in the Grand National?

Honest questions.

Stallions are very very blessed in the genital area and you will never see one in the grand national or hunt racing cause their dangly bits would get hurt going over the fences. If a flat horse is a dud they will geld him and send him over hurdles.

People keep horses for the same reason people keep cats and dogs. Your dog might be the ugliest mongrel on the planet with 15 fathers and 3 mothers but you can dream of it winning top dog at cruffs.

Horses can be very affectionate. My sister in law has a horse she's had since it was 3 and is now 14. you'd have to see it to believe it the way the horse perks up when she walks in to the yard if she's been away for a few days. That horse will jump and play around if I try to saddle him but will stand there not moving when she does it.

Alf Veedersane · 17-03-2018 11:20AM

Conspectus wrote: »

I meant easier as in its easier to be 11 stone than 8 stone. I was born and raised in the Curragh and I remember years ago jockeys in the gym going in to the sauna wearing leather trousers and vests to make them sweat more. Not a lifestyle I'd wish on anyone.

Ah yeah I know what you mean. It's just tough. Hot baths to sweat it out of you. I don't think people realise how much the hot baths and sauna to sweat off some weight takes it out of you.

McCoy pretty much had to stay down at about 10 stone all year round and that's not going to be fun for someone that's 5'10"

corner of hells · 17-03-2018 11:20AM

Conspectus wrote: »

I meant easier as in its easier to be 11 stone than 8 stone. I was born and raised in the Curragh and I remember years ago jockeys in the gym going in to the sauna wearing leather trousers and vests to make them sweat more. Not a lifestyle I'd wish on anyone.

If you were born and raised in the curragh , does that mean you're a sheep ?

timthumbni · 17-03-2018 12:31PM

Why are there so many Irish jockeys.? Where do they keep these wee men? Are they bred on a farm somewhere?

I have never met a jockey or anyone who wanted to be a jockey in real life.

timthumbni · 17-03-2018 12:33PM

Am I right in saying the big money for breeding/stud is only for flat racing and not jumpers.

Has any horse crossed over from jumping to flat racing ?

Anesthetize · 17-03-2018 12:35PM

Gwynplaine wrote: »

If there was no gambling, would anyone look at it?

Probably not.

I think about this quite a lot. Take away the betting aspect of horse racing and see how many people will be interested in it.

Personally I have no interest in betting or gambling. And I certainly have no interest in horses as animals.

Outlaw Pete · 17-03-2018 02:15PM

bobbyss wrote: »

Handicaps! What's the point?

Close finishes. Handicapper feels they've done their job if all horses cross the line in a bunch.

If a horse is very fast through his talent and basic DNA why not let that natural speed and talent express itself?

Not all horse races are handicaps. Stakes races are not handicaps.

Epsom Derby is a stakes race for example. All horses run off the same weight (allowances for filles though).

17-03-2018 02:36PM

Don't forget the jockey actually contributes quite a bit, even the athletically best horse can struggle if not ran right. Some horses work better coming from the back near the end of a race, others by going out ahead at the start and trying to stay there the whole race.

Horse racing without gambling would be as interesting as athletics imo, ie outside of the biggest events not very

bobbyss · 17-03-2018 03:09PM

Conspectus wrote: »

Stallions are very very blessed in the genital area and you will never see one in the grand national or hunt racing cause their dangly bits would get hurt going over the fences. If a flat horse is a dud they will geld him and send him over hurdles.

People keep horses for the same reason people keep cats and dogs. Your dog might be the ugliest mongrel on the planet with 15 fathers and 3 mothers but you can dream of it winning top dog at cruffs.

Horses can be very affectionate. My sister in law has a horse she's had since it was 3 and is now 14. you'd have to see it to believe it the way the horse perks up when she walks in to the yard if she's been away for a few days. That horse will jump and play around if I try to saddle him but will stand there not moving when she does it.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that re stallions.

I am interested in all of this stuff as I have often wondered about it.

But there are big differences between keeping a dog and a horse as a pet. I keep a dog as a companion etc and I have no plans for him to win anything.

But you have to be a person of means to keep a horse? Would it be fair to say that only wealthy farmers keep a horse or a few of them or that a farmer who is not well of at all would not (and indeed could not) be keeping horses for economic reasons? They must be fed, housed and vet bills etc?

Again let me display my ignorance.

A quarter horse is a strong fellow. They were (and are?) used to pull wagons and stuff. Maybe pull a plough ? Now if I was the owner of a quarter horse could I say: Well I think I will train him to run in the Grand National. It certainly would be strong enough and I can train him to jump also. Can that be done?

Or could I train a quarter horse for the Derby?

Police use very big horses. Monsters they are. Is it true to say that the taller and bigger a horse is that it can run faster and jump better? Yet I can recall a horse called Monskfield because people used to say it had the heart of a lion and it was not the biggest horse in the world.

Donald Trump · 17-03-2018 03:21PM

bobbyss wrote: »

Handicaps! What's the point?

I was so revulsed by the first line in your post that I became infuriated and could read no more.

Leave the poor divils alone. They're people as much as the rest of us.

Ken. · 17-03-2018 03:25PM

If you have a field and a stable like most farmers would you can keep a horse for about €15-20 per week.

Donald Trump · 17-03-2018 03:26PM

Conspectus wrote: »

Stallions are very very blessed in the genital area and you will never see one in the grand national or hunt racing cause their dangly bits would get hurt going over the fences. If a flat horse is a dud they will geld him and send him over hurdles.

Horses can be very affectionate. My sister in law has a horse she's had since it was 3 and is now 14. you'd have to see it to believe it the way the horse perks up when she walks in to the yard if she's been away for a few days. That horse will jump and play around if I try to saddle him but will stand there not moving when she does it.

I have it on good authority that your own dangly bits were perking up when the sister in law walks into the yard!

And that she also wouldn't stand there not moving when you tried to put a saddle on her.......

Ken. · 17-03-2018 03:27PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

I have it on good authority that your own dangly bits were perking up when the sister in law walks into the yard!

And that she also wouldn't stand there not moving when you tried to put a saddle on her.......

Better the sister in law than my daughter like some I know, Eh Donald.

BorneTobyWilde · 17-03-2018 03:40PM

You see so many cheap races in Ireland where Mullins will win over and over again, his 8 races before Cheltenham all won by him, cheap races where the small trainer has no hope.
Seems it's just a training exercise for Mullins. Why not race the rest of those owners and trainers against themselves and not Mullins.
Huge gap between classes when he runs against these smaller yards.

BorneTobyWilde · 17-03-2018 03:44PM

And his first run after Cheltenham today won by Mullins, a cheap race in Wexford. Big surprise.
That's 9 in a row in Ireland.

Donald Trump · 17-03-2018 04:00PM

Conspectus wrote: »

Better the sister in law than my daughter like some I know, Eh Donald.

If you had a daughter like my Ivanka you'd still be giving her Saturday night baths

Jen Pigs Fly · 17-03-2018 04:07PM

bobbyss wrote: »

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that re stallions.

I am interested in all of this stuff as I have often wondered about it.

But there are big differences between keeping a dog and a horse as a pet. I keep a dog as a companion etc and I have no plans for him to win anything.

But you have to be a person of means to keep a horse? Would it be fair to say that only wealthy farmers keep a horse or a few of them or that a farmer who is not well of at all would not (and indeed could not) be keeping horses for economic reasons? They must be fed, housed and vet bills etc?

Again let me display my ignorance.

A quarter horse is a strong fellow. They were (and are?) used to pull wagons and stuff. Maybe pull a plough ? Now if I was the owner of a quarter horse could I say: Well I think I will train him to run in the Grand National. It certainly would be strong enough and I can train him to jump also. Can that be done?

Or could I train a quarter horse for the Derby?

Police use very big horses. Monsters they are. Is it true to say that the taller and bigger a horse is that it can run faster and jump better? Yet I can recall a horse called Monskfield because people used to say it had the heart of a lion and it was not the biggest horse in the world.

I keep a horse as a pet, on a livery yard, it is a hobby and not to earn money. Loads of people do this.

You do not need to be a person of means to own a horse, it's no different than people who spend a load on their bikes or people who have expensive hobbies or hobbies that require a lot of equipment.

Quarter horse is an American breed, designed to run the quarter mile to catch errant racehorses, which are thoroughbred or standardbred horse breeds. Farmers don't plow using horses and certainly not with a quarter horse. If they would they would go for a heavy breed such as a large cob, shire, Clydesdale, Suffolk punch or Percheron for example.

Farmers don't typically own horses, what you see are livery yards, where people who do not own land keep their horses there. It's like renting a stable or a field. You may also see stud farms, they are not farmers ...

Race horses are specific race bred horses - the thoroughbred is the breed used to race, standardbred for trot races and for long distance races the arabian or part Arabian.

Most horses are not bred to race. It's like trying to use a pug instead of a husky to pull a sled - different breeds for different uses.

The larger the horse does not mean a better racer, a Percheron or Irish draughts used by mounted police would not be up to par with race horse speeds, they're slim and athletic, compared to strong and powerful. My Arabian, bred for endurance runs rings around race horses, yet she would not be suitable for races you see on tv, she's made to run 20+ km so she has stamina not speed, quick and nimble on her feet but would fail on the flat against a thoroughbred .

Again different breeds for different purposes.

bobbyss · 17-03-2018 11:22PM

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

I keep a horse as a pet, on a livery yard, it is a hobby and not to earn money. Loads of people do this.

You do not need to be a person of means to own a horse, it's no different than people who spend a load on their bikes or people who have expensive hobbies or hobbies that require a lot of equipment.

Quarter horse is an American breed, designed to run the quarter mile to catch errant racehorses, which are thoroughbred or standardbred horse breeds. Farmers don't plow using horses and certainly not with a quarter horse. If they would they would go for a heavy breed such as a large cob, shire, Clydesdale, Suffolk punch or Percheron for example.

Farmers don't typically own horses, what you see are livery yards, where people who do not own land keep their horses there. It's like renting a stable or a field. You may also see stud farms, they are not farmers ...

Race horses are specific race bred horses - the thoroughbred is the breed used to race, standardbred for trot races and for long distance races the arabian or part Arabian.

Most horses are not bred to race. It's like trying to use a pug instead of a husky to pull a sled - different breeds for different uses.

The larger the horse does not mean a better racer, a Percheron or Irish draughts used by mounted police would not be up to par with race horse speeds, they're slim and athletic, compared to strong and powerful. My Arabian, bred for endurance runs rings around race horses, yet she would not be suitable for races you see on tv, she's made to run 20+ km so she has stamina not speed, quick and nimble on her feet but would fail on the flat against a thoroughbred .

Again different breeds for different purposes.

You certainly know your stuff.

Never heard of a livery yard before. Sort of a rented stables set up from what I can make out. Does it include a field? How exactly does that work out? How often do you get to see the horse? What about exercise and so on?

You seem to be suggesting it may be expensive as you mention 'expensive hobbies'.

How much does the livery yard cost and does it include food?
(What do horses eat anyway?)

Hector Bellend · 17-03-2018 11:40PM

Gwynplaine wrote: »

If there was no gambling, would anyone look at it?

Probably not.

Why not? They watch Rugby.

Jen Pigs Fly · 18-03-2018 01:05PM

bobbyss wrote: »

You certainly know your stuff.

Never heard of a livery yard before. Sort of a rented stables set up from what I can make out. Does it include a field? How exactly does that work out? How often do you get to see the horse? What about exercise and so on?

You seem to be suggesting it may be expensive as you mention 'expensive hobbies'.

How much does the livery yard cost and does it include food?
(What do horses eat anyway?)

Horse owner for 12 years. A livery yard is just that, you pay your livery aka rent and I'm most cases you get a stable and a field included. Each livery yard is different however, some offer more and some offer less.

There's different types of livery:
Full livery - most expensive, you pay to have your horse in a stable and turned out into a field, the horse is fed for you, mucked out for you and in certain cases ridden for you, all the owner needs to do is turn up and ride when they want to. They provide hay and feed and bedding.

Part livery - all the above except your horse isn't exercised, you got to do that yourself. You buy your own feed and bedding

DIY livery - I use this one, you pay for stable and field rental and hay, you do the rest, I go up every day, sometimes twice a day to muck out, feed, give her hay and exercise her. I buy my own feed and hay for her and her bedding.

DIY is the cheapest as you're only paying for basics, the others more expensive as someone else takes care of your horse.

Field livery - your horse is kept in a field, you do not have a stable.

Price depends on where the yard is and what level of care you choose.

Average prices are:
Full livery:
- with exercise/training included average €150 a week
- you rid your own horse, they do the care average €100 a week

Part livery totally depends on your package. On average €80 a week

DIY - in average €60 a week

Field livery - average €40 a week

My horse eats around 10kg of hay a day and gets a scoop of horse feed - this is a mix of seeds, gains, oats and pellets.

bobbyss · 18-03-2018 02:03PM

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

Horse owner for 12 years. A livery yard is just that, you pay your livery aka rent and I'm most cases you get a stable and a field included. Each livery yard is different however, some offer more and some offer less.

There's different types of livery:
Full livery - most expensive, you pay to have your horse in a stable and turned out into a field, the horse is fed for you, mucked out for you and in certain cases ridden for you, all the owner needs to do is turn up and ride when they want to. They provide hay and feed and bedding.

Part livery - all the above except your horse isn't exercised, you got to do that yourself. You buy your own feed and bedding

DIY livery - I use this one, you pay for stable and field rental and hay, you do the rest, I go up every day, sometimes twice a day to muck out, feed, give her hay and exercise her. I buy my own feed and hay for her and her bedding.

DIY is the cheapest as you're only paying for basics, the others more expensive as someone else takes care of your horse.

Field livery - your horse is kept in a field, you do not have a stable.

Price depends on where the yard is and what level of care you choose.

Average prices are:
Full livery:
- with exercise/training included average €150 a week
- you rid your own horse, they do the care average €100 a week

Part livery totally depends on your package. On average €80 a week

DIY - in average €60 a week

Field livery - average €40 a week

My horse eats around 10kg of hay a day and gets a scoop of horse feed - this is a mix of seeds, gains, oats and pellets.

Thanks. Great to get a comprehensive reply.

This is expensive I have to say. You clearly love and care for your horse to be so engaged. I am ignorant of these matters so it is great to get answers.

When I go through Finglas, as I have in the past, I see horses tethered to something eating grass in a small public grassy area. Presumably they are brought into a stable at night time/exercised, I have no idea. I don't know.

How would you view that? Would you think it wrong to tether a horse like that?
if you were unemployed do you think a person could afford to keep a horse?

Can you keep a horse in a field without a stable?
What about at night and if it is cold?
Are horses seen as pets in term of insurance. I have pet insurance for my dog.
(Pretty useless policy as it turned out to I have to say) .
Do horses have to be registered like dogs ie licence? How much is it?
Have you ever had to call out a vet and is that expensive?

I really appreciate your responses.

Horseracing questions for dummies

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