Horseracing questions for dummies

bobbyss

Handicaps! What's the point?

Usain Bolt was fantastic. The fastest man ... etc etc. He won most of his races
through, I suppose, talent and hard work. So why didn't he let the other runners have a two or three metre head start on him at the beginning of a race to even things up? What not have him wear extra heavy clothing instead to even things out. To hold him back. To make things fair.

If a horse is very fast through his talent and basic DNA why not let that natural speed and talent express itself? Why put weights on it to hold that talent back?
When a horse is handicapped, what criteria is used? How do they know how much weight to put on him?

When I look into a field and see a bunch of horses they all look the same to me. They all have four legs and so on.

Flatracing

This is where the horses run around a track very fast with no fences. Right?

National Hunt.

This is where the horses run around a few laps and jump over fences.

Do jockeys choose one rather than another? For example, Lester Pigott never won the Grand National. Right? He never was a National Hunt jockey? AP McCoy never won the Derby. Right? Was Piggott not brave enough to take those big jumps or what? Was McCoy not good enough to control a fast horse but instead preferred to win a million races by plodding along?

Can a jockey be both in fact?

Are horses different? Can the Grand National winner win the Derby too? Are some horses built differently?

What kind of horses do some farmers keep and why?

Gwynplaine

If there was no gambling, would anyone look at it?


Probably not.

DontThankMe

bobbyss wrote: »

Handicaps! What's the point?

Usain Bolt was fantastic. The fastest man ... etc etc. He won most of his races
through, I suppose, talent and hard work. So why didn't he let the other runners have a two or three metre head start on him at the beginning of a race to even things up? What not have him wear extra heavy clothing instead to even things out. To hold him back. To make things fair.

One of the reasons they won't handicap in athletic sports events. Is it would make people unmotivated to train harder and try to be their best. Why bother putting hours of training in on the track when you can just rely on the best athlete being handicapped and beating him because he won't be able to perform a lot better than you.

bobbyss

DontThankMe wrote: »

One of the reasons they won't handicap in athletic sports events. Is it would make people unmotivated to train harder and try to be their best. Why bother putting hours of training in on the track when you can just rely on the best athlete being handicapped and beating him because he won't be able to perform a lot better than you.

I don't understand your train of though here.

Isn't the point of handicapping to make things more even? If Bolt was handicapped then surely everyone else would train hard as the chances of him being caught are greater? Is that the principle behind it?

Alf Veedersane

bobbyss wrote: »

Are horses different?

No. They all have four legs and a head. It's just that some are forced into speed racing and some are forced into longer races with jumps.

The same was as Usain Bolt probably would have been world cross country champion if he was let do it by the lizard men.

Atoms for Peace

Horse racing is about gambling so I'd imagine handicapping has got more to do with evening out the odds.

Ken.

Generally jockeys start out on the flat and then go to the jumps. This is because flat jockeys are generally lighter. Up to about 9 stone where as jumps jockeys can go up to over 11 stone. Not taking anything away from them but it is easier weight wise to be a jumps jockey.

As Gwynplaine alluded to the handicap is to do with betting.

To put it as simple as possible would you back any other runner in the world in a race against Usain Bolt from the years 2009-2015. Likewise if the fastest horse won all the time then no one would go watch and no one would gamble.

Alf Veedersane

Conspectus wrote: »

Not taking anything away from them but it is easier weight wise to be a jumps jockey.

I don't think 'easier' is the word I'd use. I don't imagine too many jockeys find keeping the weight down easy. And I don't know if too many are particularly healthy in their approach to doing it.

bobbyss

Conspectus wrote: »

Generally jockeys start out on the flat and then go to the jumps. This is because flat jockeys are generally lighter. Up to about 9 stone where as jumps jockeys can go up to over 11 stone. Not taking anything away from them but it is easier weight wise to be a jumps jockey.

As Gwynplaine alluded to the handicap is to do with betting.

To put it as simple as possible would you back any other runner in the world in a race against Usain Bolt from the years 2009-2015. Likewise if the fastest horse won all the time then no one would go watch and no one would gamble.

Thanks and fair enough.

Why do normal, regular farmers keep horses? You drive down the country and see a few horses in a field. Not a stud farm mind you just a regular farm. I can't imagine the auld Ned in that field over there is ever going to win the Derby.

Why didn't Shergar run in the Grand National?

Honest questions.

Ken.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I don't think 'easier' is the word I'd use. I don't imagine too many jockeys find keeping the weight down easy. And I don't know if too many are particularly healthy in their approach to doing it.

I meant easier as in its easier to be 11 stone than 8 stone. I was born and raised in the Curragh and I remember years ago jockeys in the gym going in to the sauna wearing leather trousers and vests to make them sweat more. Not a lifestyle I'd wish on anyone.

Ken.

bobbyss wrote: »

Thanks and fair enough.

Why do normal, regular farmers keep horses? You drive down the country and see a few horses in a field. Not a stud farm mind you just a regular farm. I can't imagine the auld Ned in that field over there is ever going to win the Derby.

Why didn't Shergar run in the Grand National?

Honest questions.

Stallions are very very blessed in the genital area and you will never see one in the grand national or hunt racing cause their dangly bits would get hurt going over the fences. If a flat horse is a dud they will geld him and send him over hurdles.


People keep horses for the same reason people keep cats and dogs. Your dog might be the ugliest mongrel on the planet with 15 fathers and 3 mothers but you can dream of it winning top dog at cruffs.

Horses can be very affectionate. My sister in law has a horse she's had since it was 3 and is now 14. you'd have to see it to believe it the way the horse perks up when she walks in to the yard if she's been away for a few days. That horse will jump and play around if I try to saddle him but will stand there not moving when she does it.

Alf Veedersane

Conspectus wrote: »

I meant easier as in its easier to be 11 stone than 8 stone. I was born and raised in the Curragh and I remember years ago jockeys in the gym going in to the sauna wearing leather trousers and vests to make them sweat more. Not a lifestyle I'd wish on anyone.

Ah yeah I know what you mean. It's just tough. Hot baths to sweat it out of you. I don't think people realise how much the hot baths and sauna to sweat off some weight takes it out of you.

McCoy pretty much had to stay down at about 10 stone all year round and that's not going to be fun for someone that's 5'10"

corner of hells

Conspectus wrote: »

I meant easier as in its easier to be 11 stone than 8 stone. I was born and raised in the Curragh and I remember years ago jockeys in the gym going in to the sauna wearing leather trousers and vests to make them sweat more. Not a lifestyle I'd wish on anyone.

If you were born and raised in the curragh , does that mean you're a sheep ?

timthumbni

Why are there so many Irish jockeys.? Where do they keep these wee men? Are they bred on a farm somewhere?

I have never met a jockey or anyone who wanted to be a jockey in real life.

timthumbni

Am I right in saying the big money for breeding/stud is only for flat racing and not jumpers.

Has any horse crossed over from jumping to flat racing ?

Anesthetize

Gwynplaine wrote: »

If there was no gambling, would anyone look at it?


Probably not.

I think about this quite a lot. Take away the betting aspect of horse racing and see how many people will be interested in it.

Personally I have no interest in betting or gambling. And I certainly have no interest in horses as animals.

Outlaw Pete

bobbyss wrote: »

Handicaps! What's the point?

Close finishes. Handicapper feels they've done their job if all horses cross the line in a bunch.

If a horse is very fast through his talent and basic DNA why not let that natural speed and talent express itself?

Not all horse races are handicaps. Stakes races are not handicaps.

Epsom Derby is a stakes race for example. All horses run off the same weight (allowances for filles though).

riffmongous

Don't forget the jockey actually contributes quite a bit, even the athletically best horse can struggle if not ran right. Some horses work better coming from the back near the end of a race, others by going out ahead at the start and trying to stay there the whole race.

Horse racing without gambling would be as interesting as athletics imo, ie outside of the biggest events not very

bobbyss

Conspectus wrote: »

Stallions are very very blessed in the genital area and you will never see one in the grand national or hunt racing cause their dangly bits would get hurt going over the fences. If a flat horse is a dud they will geld him and send him over hurdles.


People keep horses for the same reason people keep cats and dogs. Your dog might be the ugliest mongrel on the planet with 15 fathers and 3 mothers but you can dream of it winning top dog at cruffs.

Horses can be very affectionate. My sister in law has a horse she's had since it was 3 and is now 14. you'd have to see it to believe it the way the horse perks up when she walks in to the yard if she's been away for a few days. That horse will jump and play around if I try to saddle him but will stand there not moving when she does it.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that re stallions.

I am interested in all of this stuff as I have often wondered about it.

But there are big differences between keeping a dog and a horse as a pet. I keep a dog as a companion etc and I have no plans for him to win anything.

But you have to be a person of means to keep a horse? Would it be fair to say that only wealthy farmers keep a horse or a few of them or that a farmer who is not well of at all would not (and indeed could not) be keeping horses for economic reasons? They must be fed, housed and vet bills etc?

Again let me display my ignorance.

A quarter horse is a strong fellow. They were (and are?) used to pull wagons and stuff. Maybe pull a plough ? Now if I was the owner of a quarter horse could I say: Well I think I will train him to run in the Grand National. It certainly would be strong enough and I can train him to jump also. Can that be done?

Or could I train a quarter horse for the Derby?

Police use very big horses. Monsters they are. Is it true to say that the taller and bigger a horse is that it can run faster and jump better? Yet I can recall a horse called Monskfield because people used to say it had the heart of a lion and it was not the biggest horse in the world.

Donald Trump

bobbyss wrote: »

Handicaps! What's the point?

I was so revulsed by the first line in your post that I became infuriated and could read no more.

Leave the poor divils alone. They're people as much as the rest of us.

Ken.

If you have a field and a stable like most farmers would you can keep a horse for about €15-20 per week.

Donald Trump

Conspectus wrote: »

Stallions are very very blessed in the genital area and you will never see one in the grand national or hunt racing cause their dangly bits would get hurt going over the fences. If a flat horse is a dud they will geld him and send him over hurdles.


Horses can be very affectionate. My sister in law has a horse she's had since it was 3 and is now 14. you'd have to see it to believe it the way the horse perks up when she walks in to the yard if she's been away for a few days. That horse will jump and play around if I try to saddle him but will stand there not moving when she does it.

I have it on good authority that your own dangly bits were perking up when the sister in law walks into the yard!

And that she also wouldn't stand there not moving when you tried to put a saddle on her.......

Ken.

Donald Trump wrote: »

I have it on good authority that your own dangly bits were perking up when the sister in law walks into the yard!

And that she also wouldn't stand there not moving when you tried to put a saddle on her.......

Better the sister in law than my daughter like some I know, Eh Donald.

BorneTobyWilde

You see so many cheap races in Ireland where Mullins will win over and over again, his 8 races before Cheltenham all won by him, cheap races where the small trainer has no hope.
Seems it's just a training exercise for Mullins. Why not race the rest of those owners and trainers against themselves and not Mullins.
Huge gap between classes when he runs against these smaller yards.

BorneTobyWilde

And his first run after Cheltenham today won by Mullins, a cheap race in Wexford. Big surprise.
That's 9 in a row in Ireland.

Donald Trump

Conspectus wrote: »

Better the sister in law than my daughter like some I know, Eh Donald.

If you had a daughter like my Ivanka you'd still be giving her Saturday night baths

Jen Pigs Fly

bobbyss wrote: »

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that re stallions.

I am interested in all of this stuff as I have often wondered about it.

But there are big differences between keeping a dog and a horse as a pet. I keep a dog as a companion etc and I have no plans for him to win anything.

But you have to be a person of means to keep a horse? Would it be fair to say that only wealthy farmers keep a horse or a few of them or that a farmer who is not well of at all would not (and indeed could not) be keeping horses for economic reasons? They must be fed, housed and vet bills etc?

Again let me display my ignorance.

A quarter horse is a strong fellow. They were (and are?) used to pull wagons and stuff. Maybe pull a plough ? Now if I was the owner of a quarter horse could I say: Well I think I will train him to run in the Grand National. It certainly would be strong enough and I can train him to jump also. Can that be done?

Or could I train a quarter horse for the Derby?

Police use very big horses. Monsters they are. Is it true to say that the taller and bigger a horse is that it can run faster and jump better? Yet I can recall a horse called Monskfield because people used to say it had the heart of a lion and it was not the biggest horse in the world.

I keep a horse as a pet, on a livery yard, it is a hobby and not to earn money. Loads of people do this.

You do not need to be a person of means to own a horse, it's no different than people who spend a load on their bikes or people who have expensive hobbies or hobbies that require a lot of equipment.

Quarter horse is an American breed, designed to run the quarter mile to catch errant racehorses, which are thoroughbred or standardbred horse breeds. Farmers don't plow using horses and certainly not with a quarter horse. If they would they would go for a heavy breed such as a large cob, shire, Clydesdale, Suffolk punch or Percheron for example.

Farmers don't typically own horses, what you see are livery yards, where people who do not own land keep their horses there. It's like renting a stable or a field. You may also see stud farms, they are not farmers ...

Race horses are specific race bred horses - the thoroughbred is the breed used to race, standardbred for trot races and for long distance races the arabian or part Arabian.

Most horses are not bred to race. It's like trying to use a pug instead of a husky to pull a sled - different breeds for different uses.

The larger the horse does not mean a better racer, a Percheron or Irish draughts used by mounted police would not be up to par with race horse speeds, they're slim and athletic, compared to strong and powerful. My Arabian, bred for endurance runs rings around race horses, yet she would not be suitable for races you see on tv, she's made to run 20+ km so she has stamina not speed, quick and nimble on her feet but would fail on the flat against a thoroughbred .

Again different breeds for different purposes.

bobbyss

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

I keep a horse as a pet, on a livery yard, it is a hobby and not to earn money. Loads of people do this.

You do not need to be a person of means to own a horse, it's no different than people who spend a load on their bikes or people who have expensive hobbies or hobbies that require a lot of equipment.

Quarter horse is an American breed, designed to run the quarter mile to catch errant racehorses, which are thoroughbred or standardbred horse breeds. Farmers don't plow using horses and certainly not with a quarter horse. If they would they would go for a heavy breed such as a large cob, shire, Clydesdale, Suffolk punch or Percheron for example.

Farmers don't typically own horses, what you see are livery yards, where people who do not own land keep their horses there. It's like renting a stable or a field. You may also see stud farms, they are not farmers ...

Race horses are specific race bred horses - the thoroughbred is the breed used to race, standardbred for trot races and for long distance races the arabian or part Arabian.

Most horses are not bred to race. It's like trying to use a pug instead of a husky to pull a sled - different breeds for different uses.

The larger the horse does not mean a better racer, a Percheron or Irish draughts used by mounted police would not be up to par with race horse speeds, they're slim and athletic, compared to strong and powerful. My Arabian, bred for endurance runs rings around race horses, yet she would not be suitable for races you see on tv, she's made to run 20+ km so she has stamina not speed, quick and nimble on her feet but would fail on the flat against a thoroughbred .

Again different breeds for different purposes.

You certainly know your stuff.

Never heard of a livery yard before. Sort of a rented stables set up from what I can make out. Does it include a field? How exactly does that work out? How often do you get to see the horse? What about exercise and so on?

You seem to be suggesting it may be expensive as you mention 'expensive hobbies'.

How much does the livery yard cost and does it include food?
(What do horses eat anyway?)

Hector Bellend

Gwynplaine wrote: »

If there was no gambling, would anyone look at it?


Probably not.

Why not? They watch Rugby.

Jen Pigs Fly

bobbyss wrote: »

You certainly know your stuff.

Never heard of a livery yard before. Sort of a rented stables set up from what I can make out. Does it include a field? How exactly does that work out? How often do you get to see the horse? What about exercise and so on?

You seem to be suggesting it may be expensive as you mention 'expensive hobbies'.

How much does the livery yard cost and does it include food?
(What do horses eat anyway?)

Horse owner for 12 years. A livery yard is just that, you pay your livery aka rent and I'm most cases you get a stable and a field included. Each livery yard is different however, some offer more and some offer less.

There's different types of livery:
Full livery - most expensive, you pay to have your horse in a stable and turned out into a field, the horse is fed for you, mucked out for you and in certain cases ridden for you, all the owner needs to do is turn up and ride when they want to. They provide hay and feed and bedding.

Part livery - all the above except your horse isn't exercised, you got to do that yourself. You buy your own feed and bedding

DIY livery - I use this one, you pay for stable and field rental and hay, you do the rest, I go up every day, sometimes twice a day to muck out, feed, give her hay and exercise her. I buy my own feed and hay for her and her bedding.

DIY is the cheapest as you're only paying for basics, the others more expensive as someone else takes care of your horse.

Field livery - your horse is kept in a field, you do not have a stable.

Price depends on where the yard is and what level of care you choose.

Average prices are:
Full livery:
- with exercise/training included average €150 a week
- you rid your own horse, they do the care average €100 a week

Part livery totally depends on your package. On average €80 a week

DIY - in average €60 a week

Field livery - average €40 a week

My horse eats around 10kg of hay a day and gets a scoop of horse feed - this is a mix of seeds, gains, oats and pellets.

bobbyss

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

Horse owner for 12 years. A livery yard is just that, you pay your livery aka rent and I'm most cases you get a stable and a field included. Each livery yard is different however, some offer more and some offer less.

There's different types of livery:
Full livery - most expensive, you pay to have your horse in a stable and turned out into a field, the horse is fed for you, mucked out for you and in certain cases ridden for you, all the owner needs to do is turn up and ride when they want to. They provide hay and feed and bedding.

Part livery - all the above except your horse isn't exercised, you got to do that yourself. You buy your own feed and bedding

DIY livery - I use this one, you pay for stable and field rental and hay, you do the rest, I go up every day, sometimes twice a day to muck out, feed, give her hay and exercise her. I buy my own feed and hay for her and her bedding.

DIY is the cheapest as you're only paying for basics, the others more expensive as someone else takes care of your horse.

Field livery - your horse is kept in a field, you do not have a stable.

Price depends on where the yard is and what level of care you choose.

Average prices are:
Full livery:
- with exercise/training included average €150 a week
- you rid your own horse, they do the care average €100 a week

Part livery totally depends on your package. On average €80 a week

DIY - in average €60 a week

Field livery - average €40 a week

My horse eats around 10kg of hay a day and gets a scoop of horse feed - this is a mix of seeds, gains, oats and pellets.

Thanks. Great to get a comprehensive reply.

This is expensive I have to say. You clearly love and care for your horse to be so engaged. I am ignorant of these matters so it is great to get answers.

When I go through Finglas, as I have in the past, I see horses tethered to something eating grass in a small public grassy area. Presumably they are brought into a stable at night time/exercised, I have no idea. I don't know.

How would you view that? Would you think it wrong to tether a horse like that?
if you were unemployed do you think a person could afford to keep a horse?

Can you keep a horse in a field without a stable?
What about at night and if it is cold?
Are horses seen as pets in term of insurance. I have pet insurance for my dog.
(Pretty useless policy as it turned out to I have to say) .
Do horses have to be registered like dogs ie licence? How much is it?
Have you ever had to call out a vet and is that expensive?

I really appreciate your responses.

diomed

bobbyss wrote: »

Handicaps! What's the point?

Usain Bolt was fantastic. The fastest man ... etc etc. He won most of his races
through, I suppose, talent and hard work. So why didn't he let the other runners have a two or three metre head start on him at the beginning of a race to even things up? What not have him wear extra heavy clothing instead to even things out. To hold him back. To make things fair.

Only a few horse have exceptional ability and are able to compete for top races.
The top races are called Group races: Group 1, Group 2, Group 3, Listed in descending order.
Below that level are handicap races, and within this are different levels to suit different abilities e.g. 60-90 handicap for horses rated between 60 and 90.
Horses in a 60-90 are given different weights in an effort to give all of them an equal chance.
Racing has official handicappers who allot a rating to each horse based on his / her race performances.
A horse can run in a handicap after it has run three times and has received a handicap rating.
If there were no handicap races, there would be no use for about 90% of racehorses.

Here is an extract from my work where I collected horse ratings (flat racing) over a number of years.
You will see ratings range from 0 to 130+ (actually the highest flat rating given was 147.
The average rating is about 75. A very good horse would be 120 or higher.

Rating Horses
130+ 697
125-129 677
120-124 1455
115-119 3270
110-114 4890
105-109 7130
100-104 8523
95-99 8785
90-94 8987
85-89 9731
80-84 10753
75-79 11769
70-74 11586
65-69 10967
60-64 9788
55-59 8551
50-54 6960
45-49 5428
40-44 3275
35-39 2044
30-34 1333
25-29 822
20-24 543
15-19 399
10-14 316
05-09 214
01-04 330

All 139223

bobbyss wrote: »

If a horse is very fast through his talent and basic DNA why not let that natural speed and talent express itself? Why put weights on it to hold that talent back?
When a horse is handicapped, what criteria is used? How do they know how much weight to put on him?
When I look into a field and see a bunch of horses they all look the same to me. They all have four legs and so on.

Horses are herd animals. They will run in a tight group for safety.
They will not race to see who is first over a measured distance.

Obviously if is more difficult to carry weight over a longer distance.
The handicapper will have an idea, based on past performances, of the expected distances at the finish of horses in a race if they all carry equal weights.
He will increase the weights for the better horses,
about 3 pounds a length if it is a 5 furlong sprint race ( 5 x 220 = 1,100 yards),
or 1 pound a length is it is a 12 furlong race (12 x 220 = 2,640 yards)

bobbyss wrote: »

Flatracing
This is where the horses run around a track very fast with no fences. Right?
National Hunt.
This is where the horses run around a few laps and jump over fences.

Correct.
Most horses are bred with a view either racing on the flat or over jumps.
Many flat horse can race over hurdles, but I do not know of any who moved from jumps to the flat.
Jumps racing is generally slower.

bobbyss wrote: »

Do jockeys choose one rather than another? For example, Lester Pigott never won the Grand National. Right? He never was a National Hunt jockey? AP McCoy never won the Derby. Right? Was Piggott not brave enough to take those big jumps or what? Was McCoy not good enough to control a fast horse but instead preferred to win a million races by plodding along?
Can a jockey be both in fact?

The jockey weight for top flat races is 9 stone 0 pounds.
In many races the weight will be less, around 8-7.
The minimum weight in the Grand National is 10 stone 0 pounds with the top weight 11 stone 10 pounds this year, but in the past it was as high as 12-7.
A flat jockey could ride in jumps races because he could certainly "do the weight" but a jumps jockey who might weight 11-7 could never ride in a flat race at 9-0.

Lester Piggott did ride over jumps. He won a race at Cheltenham on his first ride there, aboard Mull Sack in the now-defunct Birdlip Selling Hurdle on March 2, 1954.

bobbyss wrote: »

Are horses different? Can the Grand National winner win the Derby too? Are some horses built differently?
What kind of horses do some farmers keep and why?

A Grand National winner could not run in the English Derby for a number of reasons.
1) The Grand national is for horses aged 7 years or older.
The English Derby is for 3 year olds.
2) The English Derby is for "entire colts or fillies"
Male horses who run over jumps are almost always geldings (look it up).
3) The Grand National is 4.5 miles over fences. The Derby is 1.5 miles on the flat.
Jumping is a learned talent, and flat horses are not trained to jump.

Horses are "built differently".
In the last ten years a Dublin company identified a DNA difference.
They can separate horses into three types: sprinters (5f to 8f racers), middle-distance (8f to 12f racers); stayers (10f and longer racers).

diomed

History shows that the 11-times champion Flat jockey (Lester Piggott) rode his solitary Cheltenham Festival winner on his first ride around the course - aboard Mull Sack in the now-defunct Birdlip Selling Hurdle on March 2, 1954.

Lester also rode the winner of the Triumph Hurdle the following weekend, on Prince Charlemagne, but the race for four-year-olds was then run at Hurst Park.
(this is now a major race at the Cheltenham festival)

Three months later, he won the first of his nine Derbys, aboard Never Say Die, at Epsom. He was 18.

myshirt

I was offered a 'leg in a horse', but there were 5 of us. How does this work and does each owner get allocated a specific leg?

diomed

myshirt wrote: »

I was offered a 'leg in a horse', but there were 5 of us. How does this work and does each owner get allocated a specific leg?

If the horse was any good they would not be offering you a share.

bobbyss

diomed wrote: »

The jockey weight for top flat races is 9 stone 0 pounds.
In many races the weight will be less, around 8-7.
The minimum weight in the Grand National is 10 stone 0 pounds with the top weight 11 stone 10 pounds this year, but in the past it was as high as 12-7.
A flat jockey could ride in jumps races because he could certainly "do the weight" but a jumps jockey who might weight 11-7 could never ride in a flat race at 9-0.

Lester Piggott did ride over jumps. He won a race at Cheltenham on his first ride there, aboard Mull Sack in the now-defunct Birdlip Selling Hurdle on March 2, 1954.


A Grand National winner could not run in the English Derby for a number of reasons.
1) The Grand national is for horses aged 7 years or older.
The English Derby is for 3 year olds.
2) The English Derby is for "entire colts or fillies"
Male horses who run over jumps are almost always geldings (look it up).
3) The Grand National is 4.5 miles over fences. The Derby is 1.5 miles on the flat.
Jumping is a learned talent, and flat horses are not trained to jump.

Horses are "built differently".
In the last ten years a Dublin company identified a DNA difference.
They can separate horses into three types: sprinters (5f to 8f racers), middle-distance (8f to 12f racers); stayers (10f and longer racers).

I see. Thank you. Why do jockeys have to make weights in the first place? What's the point behind it?
Why couldn't a jockey who is 11-7 race in a flat race? What would the problem be? Why are there all these limits?

diomed

bobbyss wrote: »

I see. Thank you. Why do jockeys have to make weights in the first place? What's the point behind it?
Why couldn't a jockey who is 11-7 race in a flat race? What would the problem be? Why are there all these limits?

If all the runners in a race are carrying 9-0 no owner will hire a jockey weighing 11-7 as it would slow the horse by 161-126 = 35 pounds or about 12 lengths in a 5f sprint or 35 lengths in a 12f race.
I think the horse would not be allowed take part if it was carrying more than a couple of pounds above the race weight.

Why do all the horses in a flat race carry, for example, 9-0 instead of 11-7?
Horses in flat races are younger that jumps horses when racing, usually 2yo, 3yo, 4yo, some 5yo+.
A two year old can carry 9-0, but would have great difficulty carrying 11-7.
And two year olds only race at 5f for the first few months of their 2yo year, then around June are allowed race at 5f and 6f, and later can race at 5f, 6f, 7f, 8f+.
Thoroughbred horses are not fully mature until about five years old.
Typically horses in the Grand National would be nine years old, stamina bred, and tend to be much bigger.
A big jumper might be 17 hands and 9yo+, a smaller flat racer 15 hands and 2yo (1 hand = 4 inches).
Horse height is the height of the back at the withers, just behind the neck.

byhookorbycrook

Many of the horses you see around the countryside are either point to point horses, whereby they run over fences at locally held races, mares for breeding or leisure horses. Leisure horses can be used for things like amateur show jumping, long distance riding, hunter trials, hunting, dressage, long distance riding or just "hacking out." Some of them are like your average mutt, breeding isn't recorded, they aren't worth much comparative to some racehorses, though worth diamonds to their owners. Some horses are bred for specific jobs, the Irish "sports horse" is bred for say, eventing, pure showing (which is like an equine beauty contest) and some are bred to jump. Breeding isn't everything, which is why your expensive racehorse, with two illustrious parents may be a slow as a snail and your angular awkward looking hairy cob can take on the best of the showjumpers.

Odelay

Have to agree with the above, excellent post.
As for farmers keeping a few. Around here plenty do, mostly budget TB for point to point racing with the hope that one could make the big time.

byhookorbycrook

Lots of "big names" had early races as point to point horses. Brian Gleeson, a racing commentator on RTE and others, is a great man to plug the early pointing success. He often alluded to seeing Denman- one of the national hint superstars of recent years win Liscarroll point to point.

ETA There's also a strong pony racing industry here. Jack Kennedy, 18 year old hero of Cheltenham cut his teeth racing ponies in West Kerry.

Capt'n Midnight

Take rowing, you could do a handicap if you insisted that on adding weights so that Boat + cox + handicap are the same for all teams.

It's done to a certain extent in F1 and cycling. Lots of things are banned. You can't do time trials on a recumbent, you have to use a diamond frame bicycle.



We should have a thing where jockeys can pedal and the energy is used to assist the horse. Maybe a supercharger so breathing is easier ?

bobbyss

diomed wrote: »

If all the runners in a race are carrying 9-0 no owner will hire a jockey weighing 11-7 as it would slow the horse by 161-126 = 35 pounds or about 12 lengths in a 5f sprint or 35 lengths in a 12f race.
I think the horse would not be allowed take part if it was carrying more than a couple of pounds above the race weight.

Why do all the horses in a flat race carry, for example, 9-0 instead of 11-7?
Horses in flat races are younger that jumps horses when racing, usually 2yo, 3yo, 4yo, some 5yo+.
A two year old can carry 9-0, but would have great difficulty carrying 11-7.
And two year olds only race at 5f for the first few months of their 2yo year, then around June are allowed race at 5f and 6f, and later can race at 5f, 6f, 7f, 8f+.
Thoroughbred horses are not fully mature until about five years old.
Typically horses in the Grand National would be nine years old, stamina bred, and tend to be much bigger.
A big jumper might be 17 hands and 9yo+, a smaller flat racer 15 hands and 2yo (1 hand = 4 inches).
Horse height is the height of the back at the withers, just behind the neck.

Thank you very much.

It is beginning to make sense to me now. I didn't appreciate all that weight business. I understand now how the extra weight on a smaller and younger horse might be problematic.

But one thing. This is in relation to flat jockeys running in jump races.

If I was the owner of a horse in the Grand National, shouldn't I be getting someone like Willie Carson rather than McCoy to be my jockey?

McCoy is bigger and heavier than Carson and therefore will slow down my horse in the race?

Ken.

bobbyss wrote: »

Thank you very much.

It is beginning to make sense to me now. I didn't appreciate all that weight business. I understand now how the extra weight on a smaller and younger horse might be problematic.

But one thing. This is in relation to flat jockeys running in jump races.

If I was the owner of a horse in the Grand National, shouldn't I be getting someone like Willie Carson rather than McCoy to be my jockey?

McCoy is bigger and heavier than Carson and therefore will slow down my horse in the race?

It doesn't matter if you put a 2 stone baby on the the horse. If the horse is suppose to carry 12 stone and the jockey is lighter they put lead weights in the saddle.

A jockey would on a day get his weight down to ride the lightest he is suppose to that day then he would add lead for the rest of the horses on that day.

byhookorbycrook

Lighter jockeys have to carry "dead weight" which is not ideal. Jockeys weigh in at the end of races to prove they are carrying the assigned weight.In any case, a jockey that is really light may not have the power to control a big steeplechaser.

Joe_ Public

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Lighter jockeys have to carry "dead weight" which is not ideal. Jockeys weigh in at the end of races to prove they are carrying the assigned weight.In any case, a jockey that is really light may not have the power to control a big steeplechaser.

All fair enough though I’m not sure I can fully buy your last point. Plenty of lightweight jockeys had no issues controlling jumpers at Cheltenham last week. I’ve always found the notion of physical strength in the saddle overplayed at times. There’s a lot more to riding well and think it’s beginning to be acknowledged more and more.

Jen Pigs Fly

bobbyss wrote: »

Thanks. Great to get a comprehensive reply.

This is expensive I have to say. You clearly love and care for your horse to be so engaged. I am ignorant of these matters so it is great to get answers.

When I go through Finglas, as I have in the past, I see horses tethered to something eating grass in a small public grassy area. Presumably they are brought into a stable at night time/exercised, I have no idea. I don't know.

How would you view that? Would you think it wrong to tether a horse like that?
if you were unemployed do you think a person could afford to keep a horse?

Can you keep a horse in a field without a stable?
What about at night and if it is cold?
Are horses seen as pets in term of insurance. I have pet insurance for my dog.
(Pretty useless policy as it turned out to I have to say) .
Do horses have to be registered like dogs ie licence? How much is it?
Have you ever had to call out a vet and is that expensive?

I really appreciate your responses.

Horses aren't cheap, you need to factor in other costs such as farrier every 8 weeks or so, vet, chiropractor for their backs, dentist, saddle fitters, etc they are very cost heavy.

As far as those poor animals in finglas and the likes, I personally do not think a housing estate is the correct place for these animals. During storm Emma many died as their owners just didn't give a crap. A lot of them are just forgotten about until the owner decided to yahoo them around public roads ... it's sad really. Certain areas do have equestrian centres where they teach these people proper horse care, these horses are stabled.

The other horses at the side of the road are generally not left in, or cared for properly. Often they cover skinny horses with rugs to hide their skinniness from the public eye. They are used and abused for fun by people who don't care for their welfare. I often see these horses come in as rescues scared of people and covered in old wound marks and welts. Worst I've seen was a mare covered in cigarette burns and burns down her back where she was set on fire. She was sweet but never ridden as she was so fearful of people.

When I went through a period of unemployment I moved my mare to cheaper livery - facilities were not the best but was cheaper and I was able to keep her healthy. It's a case of what you're willing to do to keep the animal. Like dogs, some people will spend €80 on a bag of premium food no problem whereas others would never dream of it and will buy a €12 bag from Aldi - we put different priorities on our animals than others.

A horse can live out without a stable, but requires good shelter, access to water and depending on breed different weight (warmth) rugs depending on how cold it is. You also need to check on the horse daily to make sure the rug didn't get caught, horse got injured/stuck.

Horse rugs are great for when it's cold.

My horse is insured under the yards insurance, she is also covered by Allianz horse and rider insurance which covers third party liability and death. It's recommended to get insurance.

Horses by law must be passported, they cannot travel out of the yard without passports. And when entering competitions and such a passport needs to be provided. It allows for traceability, and a horse without a passport can technically be seized and inpounded. Passport depend on who your horse is registered with - my mare cost €250 to be registered and passported by the Arab horse society, but each registration stud book is different.

My personal Most expensive vet bill was €800 back in 2012 - horse got stuck and badly damaged a tendon. Vet bills are normally €50 for yearly shots.

diomed

bobbyss wrote: »

But one thing. This is in relation to flat jockeys running in jump races.
If I was the owner of a horse in the Grand National, shouldn't I be getting someone like Willie Carson rather than McCoy to be my jockey?
McCoy is bigger and heavier than Carson and therefore will slow down my horse in the race?

If the horse is to carry 11-0 (11 stone and zero pounds) in the Grand national it will carry that weight.
If the jockey is small (Willie Carson was about 7-7 I think. He is now retired.) the difference between the actual weight of the jockey and the weight to be carried (in this case 11-0 minus 7-7 = 3-7) would be carried in lead plates in the saddle.
Owners and trainers would try as far as possible to have a jockey nearer the actual weight to be carried 11-0 as they think a bigger jockey would be more useful (more energetic) in helping the horse, and there would be less "dead weight".
I think the opposite is true. A small jockey with less movement of the 11-0 weight away from the centre of gravity of the horse is less disruption to its stride pattern.
But I'm sure thousands would disagree with this. They love to see a jockey swinging about and flailing at the horse.

There have been jockeys in the past weighing less than three stone.
For a long time the minimum weight was 4-7.
I've read of a jockey so small he could not carry the saddle (and the added lead) back to the weighing sclaes after a race.

EICVD

Gwynplaine wrote: »

If there was no gambling, would anyone look at it?


Probably not.

Yawn.....could say the same about every other sport!

DrPhilG

Somewhat related...

Gambling odds. I get the basics. 10-1 means you win 10 for every 1 you bet.

Now I often hear odds quoted like 9-2. That irritates my inner OCD self because for the sake of a half, why not round it up to 10-2 which would be the same as 5-1? But I suppose it can still be a big amount if large bets are involved so fair enough.

But the real kicker is that I DO often see odds like 10-2 and 20-10 etc. Why is that not boiled down to 5-1 and 2-1 respectively?

diomed

DrPhilG wrote: »

Somewhat related...
Gambling odds. I get the basics. 10-1 means you win 10 for every 1 you bet.

Now I often hear odds quoted like 9-2. That irritates my inner OCD self because for the sake of a half, why not round it up to 10-2 which would be the same as 5-1? But I suppose it can still be a big amount if large bets are involved so fair enough.

But the real kicker is that I DO often see odds like 10-2 and 20-10 etc. Why is that not boiled down to 5-1 and 2-1 respectively?

Traditional odds like 9/2, or 11/8, 6/4, 13/8, 7/4 allowed bookmakers to price their offers more exactly to attract business at racecourses.
If ten bookmakers had 11/8 chalked up on their boards (olden times before electronic displays) and one of those ten bookmakers wiped 11/8 off his board and chalked up 6/4 all the racegoers would rush to him and bet with him (because 6/4 is greater that 11/8).
When he had taken enough money at 6/4 he would probably change his price back to 11/8 or simply wipe off the price and have no price displayed (he will take no more bets).
In the same way 9/2 will attract money from betters when other bookmakers are offering 4/1.

Old style odds prices like 100/8, 100/7, 100/6 were designed to attract people who wanted to bet to win €100 - put on €6 at 100/6 and you win €100.
They did not want someone betting €11 at 100/6 as the calculation is more difficult.
If you were betting €6 at 100/6 you would say to the bookmaker "€6 to win €100 on number five", the bookmaker would call out the bet and hand you a ticket, and his clerk was listening to his boss call the bet and writes the bet on a sheet. And you would hear the bet called.

I have never hear of odds of 10/2 or 20/10.

Surreptitious

I don't know anything about horses but I enjoyed reading Jenny's stories about her horse, she truly cares for it and is very informative. Thanks jenny