Off Topic Thread 4.0

stephen_n · 16-03-2018 01:03PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What are you on about? Have I said we should just scrap foreign investment somewhere and just forgotten that I wrote it?

This is a case where a locally owned company invested a lot of money into renewable energy and were directly opposed, off the books, by a minister under the orders of a foreign owned golf course. Do you have an alternative for developing Irish business? Do you have an alternative for renewable energy? Or is a foreign owned golf course more important to the nation?

No I think you are the one just making up stuff, because Leo never said he opposed it, he made enquires and was quite clear that he didn’t believe he had any impact on the outcome. For someone who doesn’t like people misrepresenting what he says, you’re fairly good at it yourself.

Zzippy · 16-03-2018 01:08PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I’m fully aware of that.

What is the impact of non-renewable energy on our landscape, long-term?

Non-renewables are causing climate change, which will probably mean more severe weather for Ireland - wetter summers, stormier winters. How that impacts on our landscape is anyone's guess - I think Doonbeg golf course might be one of the first casualties, incidentally. Unless Trump gets to "build the wall".

irishbucsfan wrote: »

On another note, I’ve always wondered if renewable energy is a necessary long term alternative, why aren’t we working with Irish companies to try to improve the appearance of wind farms? Wonder if there’s an avenue for that, do they have to be big ugly white things in order to work?!

We could put them offshore, as in the Irish Sea - we have huge scope for offshore wind and some of the best conditions in the world for it. I think tidal and wave energy will be huge in the future, again we have some of the most suitable conditions anywhere for that. But yeah, they do have to be massive white things AFAIK.

prawnsambo · 16-03-2018 01:14PM

Zzippy wrote: »

We could put them offshore, as in the Irish Sea - we have huge scope for offshore wind and some of the best conditions in the world for it. I think tidal and wave energy will be huge in the future, again we have some of the most suitable conditions anywhere for that. But yeah, they do have to be massive white things AFAIK.

There's the Arklow Bank windfarm which never got past phase one (25MW) for various reasons.

16-03-2018 01:16PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Non-renewables are causing climate change, which will probably mean more severe weather for Ireland - wetter summers, stormier winters. How that impacts on our landscape is anyone's guess - I think Doonbeg golf course might be one of the first casualties, incidentally. Unless Trump gets to "build the wall".

We could put them offshore, as in the Irish Sea - we have huge scope for offshore wind and some of the best conditions in the world for it. I think tidal and wave energy will be huge in the future, again we have some of the most suitable conditions anywhere for that. But yeah, they do have to be massive white things AFAIK.

I personally have no issue with Windfarms. I'd be happy to be surrounded by them, I like what they are and what they represent and I'm often surprised as to the level of opposition to them.

That said, I can also appreciate why they aren't appropriate everywhere. They've gotten it mostly right in the South East where most coastal wind farms are near and around non tourist beaches where the water shelf is on or near the shoreline and the swimming is treacherous.

prawnsambo · 16-03-2018 01:21PM

The problem with windfarms in the past (and I'm not sure if this has been corrected since) is the issue with connection to the national grid. Apparently it is very difficult (or was) to regulate the generated power and to store it when it's not needed.

16-03-2018 01:29PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

The problem with windfarms in the past (and I'm not sure if this has been corrected since) is the issue with connection to the national grid. Apparently it is very difficult (or was) to regulate the generated power and to store it when it's not needed.

It hasn't. Ireland only has one pump storage facility and it's been there longer than the wind farms have. The inverse is also true, when the wind isn't blowing they produce nothing.

A big integrated European grid could be a potential solution as you'd think the wind will always be blowing somewhere.

prawnsambo · 16-03-2018 01:34PM

Sloane Nutritious Ham wrote: »

It hasn't. Ireland only has one pump storage facility and it's been there longer than the wind farms have. The inverse is also true, when the wind isn't blowing they produce nothing.

A big integrated European grid could be a potential solution as you'd think the wind will always be blowing somewhere.

Improved battery technology is the gold standard I suppose. I presume the pump storage facility you mentioned is Turlough Hill?

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 01:35PM

stephen_n wrote: »

No I think you are the one just making up stuff, because Leo never said he opposed it, he made enquires and was quite clear that he didn’t believe he had any impact on the outcome. For someone who doesn’t like people misrepresenting what he says, you’re fairly good at it yourself.

Ah yes I’m sure he was instructed to call the board in order to voice Trumps overwhelming support for the project. Good man.

I suppose it was always going to turn out that the Housing Minister instructed that a letter should be sent out last week to remind everyone that elected officials shouldn’t be discussing planning applications only for the Taoiseach to brag about doing it the following week. Great joined up thinking there!

16-03-2018 01:42PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Improved battery technology is the gold standard I suppose. I presume the pump storage facility you mentioned is Turlough Hill?

Yes indeed.

I'm sure you've seen the massive battery installation Tesla did in Australia. I guess something like that? I don't know how efficient or how many charging cycles they can survive. It all comes down to cost.

stephen_n · 16-03-2018 02:13PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah yes I’m sure he was instructed to call the board in order to voice Trumps overwhelming support for the project. Good man.

I suppose it was always going to turn out that the Housing Minister instructed that a letter should be sent out last week to remind everyone that elected officials shouldn’t be discussing planning applications only for the Taoiseach to brag about doing it the following week. Great joined up thinking there!

I’m sure he wasn’t, nor did he ever claim that either. You’d want to be careful these wind farms don’t blow over all your strawmen!

The minister for tourism making enquires on behalf of a company directly involved in tourism in the region, absolutely shocking behavior.

16-03-2018 02:16PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah yes I’m sure he was instructed to call the board in order to voice Trumps overwhelming support for the project. Good man.

This says a lot more about where you are coming from than it does about what Leo may or may not have done / said.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I suppose it was always going to turn out that the Housing Minister instructed that a letter should be sent out last week to remind everyone that elected officials shouldn’t be discussing planning applications only for the Taoiseach to brag about doing it the following week. Great joined up thinking there!

That letter was because local authorities were openly discussing planning applications in committee. Neither Trump nor Leo were making a planning application. You have absolutely no clue what Leo said or who he said it to nor in what context. It's becoming apparent what you would like to think happened, and I'm prepared to join you in outrage if he made any demands of the local council, but his candour on the subject suggests that this isn't the case.

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 02:19PM

stephen_n wrote: »

I’m sure he wasn’t, nor did he ever claim that either. You’d want to be careful these wind farms don’t blow over all your strawmen!

The minister for tourism making enquires on behalf of a company directly involved in tourism in the region, absolutely shocking behavior.

The council have come out and said it is very very uncommon. So yes, it is absolutely shocking.

ClanofLams · 16-03-2018 02:26PM

Without getting into the rights/wrongs of it, it was incredibly ill advised for Varadkar to say it, inevitable there would be uproar. Enda Kenny had plenty of knockers but you would be a long time waiting for him to make such an unforced error.

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 02:28PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This says a lot more about where you are coming from than it does about what Leo may or may not have done / said.

That letter was because local authorities were openly discussing planning applications in committee. Neither Trump nor Leo were making a planning application. You have absolutely no clue what Leo said or who he said it to nor in what context. It's becoming apparent what you would like to think happened, and I'm prepared to join you in outrage if he made any demands of the local council, but his candour on the subject suggests that this isn't the case.

Public elected officials can’t discuss it at public events, but you’ve no issue with a government minister discussing and potentially influencing planning decisions with overseas billionaires in private with absolutely no record?

This is a major problem in Ireland, people sycophantically unwilling to criticize or expect decent behavior from public officials. We’re sprinting headfirst into the exact same public/private disaster that Hislop and the PE uncovered in Westminster if this sort of behavior isn’t squashed and the people responsible for representing our government to the private sector aren’t held accountable every time they roll over and ask for treats.

prawnsambo · 16-03-2018 02:33PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The council have come out and said it is very very uncommon. So yes, it is absolutely shocking.

I'm not seeing this anywhere.

There is even confusion as to whether Leo actually spoke to anyone and that it may have been one of his staff who made the inquiry.

16-03-2018 02:36PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This is a major problem in Ireland,

Almost as big a problem as people rushing to judgement without a whiff of the facts.

16-03-2018 02:40PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The council have come out and said it is very very uncommon. So yes, it is absolutely shocking.

Link please.

sydthebeat · 16-03-2018 02:49PM

i work in the private sector but deal with planners and planning applications everyday.

politicians inquiring about, or making representations on, a planning application isnt commonplace, but not at all unusual.
generally if they are requested to by an external party they will representations on behalf of them, most generally pro the application, but somethings anti.

at the end of the day, the board of councillors is the planners boss, and the councillors will have more direct access to a planner than joe public.

personally i dont find it unusual that the minister for tourism would contact a county council to inquire about a planning application that may have an effect on in a high tourism area. The planner may have informed the minister during that phone call that the application would be refused and/or the minister may have requested that the impact on tourism be more strenuously tested.

i would have my doubts that, post crash and planning tribunals, a minister would have been so forward as to demand a refusal.

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 02:50PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Almost as big a problem as people rushing to judgement without a whiff of the facts.

Certainly didn’t stop you!

prawnsambo · 16-03-2018 02:56PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

i work in the private sector but deal with planners and planning applications everyday.

politicians inquiring about, or making representations on, a planning application isnt commonplace, but not at all unusual.
generally if they are requested to by an external party they will representations on behalf of them, most generally pro the application, but somethings anti.

at the end of the day, the board of councillors is the planners boss, and the councillors will have more direct access to a planner than joe public.

personally i dont find it unusual that the minister for tourism would contact a county council to inquire about a planning application that may have an effect on in a high tourism area. The planner may have informed the minister during that phone call that the application would be refused and/or the minister may have requested that the impact on tourism be more strenuously tested.

i would have my doubts that, post crash and planning tribunals, a minister would have been so forward as to demand a refusal.

Yeah, I would have been involved in planning applications in the past and asked councillors to find out which way the wind was blowing. If you can get a heads up on extra information being required, you can speed up the application by submitting it before it's asked for. Otherwise, you get the 'clock' reset and the application can drag on.

Pretty normal stuff because councillors have much better access to planners than Joe Public.

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 03:10PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

i work in the private sector but deal with planners and planning applications everyday.

politicians inquiring about, or making representations on, a planning application isnt commonplace, but not at all unusual.
generally if they are requested to by an external party they will representations on behalf of them, most generally pro the application, but somethings anti.

at the end of the day, the board of councillors is the planners boss, and the councillors will have more direct access to a planner than joe public.

personally i dont find it unusual that the minister for tourism would contact a county council to inquire about a planning application that may have an effect on in a high tourism area. The planner may have informed the minister during that phone call that the application would be refused and/or the minister may have requested that the impact on tourism be more strenuously tested.

i would have my doubts that, post crash and planning tribunals, a minister would have been so forward as to demand a refusal.

There isn't necessarily a problem with politicians making enquiries about planning applications. That's not the problem. In fact it's an important part of the job for many of them I'm sure.

What is hugely important though is that we are aware of who has access to our politicians, what they are requesting, how those requests are handled, and what their future relationship with those politicians then is. If we don't get a handle on that then we'll lose control of them.

In Westminster there's an absolutely incredible number of people leaving the public sector into extremely suspicious and extremely lucrative employment and it's a massive mess to untangle that, which the establishment parties are unwilling to undertake (for obvious enough reasons!), behind the child abuse scandal its probably the 2nd biggest mess they're sweeping under their rug. Look up the evidence that Richard Brooks gave to the commons select committee on that if you're interested. Obviously America is even worse but I'd hesitate to even call that a government any more.

We can't have a situation where foreign billionaires are able to call our government ministers, potentially influence their actions and leave no record. And we certainly shouldn't be letting our taoiseach bring it up as a humorous anecdote (although luckily he isn't getting away with it). Who knows how many of these special requests are being made and how many of them are being rejected or acquiesced, let alone how many of them influence future relationships between elected officials and the private sector. I'd say the likes of Rupert Murdoch's ears pricked right up when they heard this story.

irishbucsfan · 16-03-2018 03:14PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah, I would have been involved in planning applications in the past and asked councillors to find out which way the wind was blowing. If you can get a heads up on extra information being required, you can speed up the application by submitting it before it's asked for. Otherwise, you get the 'clock' reset and the application can drag on.

Pretty normal stuff because councillors have much better access to planners than Joe Public.

Why would you bother with a county councillor in the appropriate county... would you not just call the Minister? Or do you not have his number?

pickarooney · 16-03-2018 03:34PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Does this not depend on what Leo was asked?

If he was asked a simple "what's the story, is planning going to be approved?", which question he then put to the CC, then it's hardly worth getting our knickers in a twist over.

If on the other hand it's "Can this be stopped?" which then was translated to the CC as "Can you stop this?", then we are indeed not talking about normal politics.

Is there any reason I cannot award the permission?

mfceiling · 16-03-2018 05:45PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Is there any reason I cannot award the permission?

"Pickarooney there is no reason I can give you for you not to give the permission".

"So I can award the permission"

"I cannot see Leo giving the permission so therefore I cannot give you any reason for you not to give the permission"

prawnsambo · 16-03-2018 07:38PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why would you bother with a county councillor in the appropriate county... would you not just call the Minister? Or do you not have his number?

I think you're being facetious, but just in case, the answer is you talk to the guy you know. And who knows the planners.

Zzippy · 16-03-2018 07:41PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think you're being facetious, but just in case, the answer is you talk to the guy you know. And who knows the planners.

Out of curiosity, what gave it away?

prawnsambo · 16-03-2018 07:51PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what gave it away?

On balance, the minister thing. I kind of addressed that subtly. I think.

Neil3030 · 16-03-2018 08:30PM

Heaslip's article on the Player's Chronicle reminded me a lot of the garbled nonsense Gavin Cummiskey recently wrote when reviewing a Leinster match. And I see that the latter even retweeted a link to the article... Ghost writer, I wonder...

pickarooney · 16-03-2018 08:36PM

Do you think he slipped up there or was it deliberate?

16-03-2018 10:07PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The council have come out and said it is very very uncommon. So yes, it is absolutely shocking.

Absolutely shocking alright. Just saw this on twitter, here is the 'email' Leo sent to Failte Ireland

Thankfully no one on here jumped to any conclusions.

Off Topic Thread 4.0

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