Irish judge stops extradition of Polish citizen...

El Weirdo · 16-03-2018 04:06PM

Is the Daily Mail comments section leaking?

end of the road · 16-03-2018 04:33PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Under attack by whom? Until the EU decides that the Poles are not a legalistic nation the Irish judiciary does not have the right to overturn the EU constitution which has very specific rules on extradition and which is constitutionally binding here.

Another genius who thinks guilt has to be proven prior to extradition.

the judge knows the law better then you or i . she has decided that the matter must be refered to europe for a decisian. given she has made that decisian, it's safe to say it's a perfectly legal decisian.

ancapailldorcha · 16-03-2018 04:38PM

Chrongen wrote: »

A lot of this stuff is probably a bit too complicated for you.

Banned for one week.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 16-03-2018 06:49PM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Is the Daily Mail comments section leaking?

That’s not a very valuable contribution.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 16-03-2018 06:52PM

end of the road wrote: »

the judge knows the law better then you or i . she has decided that the matter must be refered to europe for a decisian. given she has made that decisian, it's safe to say it's a perfectly legal decisian.

She clearly doesn’t know the law as she’s just asked the ECJ to decide it.

This ruling has huge consequences. As does the Supreme courts decision to refer another case to the ECJ regarding extradition to Britain. Because of Brexit.

Effectively the two highest courts in the land have unilaterally stopped extradition to two existing EU states, one of which is one of the oldest democracies in the world and the originator of our legal system.

We always knew our judiciary werent the sharpest tools in the drawer, this however takes the biscuit.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 16-03-2018 06:56PM

VinLieger wrote: »

An agreement doesnt imply we adhere to their requests without going through the legal process which is what she is doing. There's a reason Ian Bailey has never been extradited to france and its due to the french not being able to prove their case to the legal requirements for him to be extradited, whether you agree with it or not that's the facts of the situation.

Clearly different. The judge didn’t have a problem with the evidence, but with the legal system of a member country.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 16-03-2018 06:57PM

Robbo wrote: »

Please stop talking about European Law, you clearly have no clue whatsoever.

Any Court in Ireland can make a reference to the CJEU under Article 267 TFEU, there's 40 odd years of jurisprudence on this.

Where did I dispute that she couldn’t refer the case? I am disputing the why of the referral.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 16-03-2018 07:01PM

baylah17 wrote: »

We dont extradite willy nilly to countries where there is no proper and established rule of law, banana republics Poland.
The Judge did her job and did it admirably.

If it’s a banana republic then it needs to be expelled from the European Union. If it isn’t a banana republic then the extradition treaty should stand. The alternative is the free movement of people from a country who then cannot be extradited to that country. By the way the Irish times article says exactly that. This act stops extradition EU wide.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 16-03-2018 07:06PM

wes wrote: »

The fact that racial slurs are already being flung around already, shows me how bad things are in Poland. Poland is going down a dangerous path, one that has led to a lot of strife on this continent already.

I think the right decision has been made by the court here, and the reaction you describe drives that home all the more.

If they start burning flags, they are just showing their true character to the world.

To me there’s a remarkable amount of Polonophobia in this thread. It’s been variously described as a banana republic and the entire populace accused of “showing its true colours”. Whatever that means.

trashcan · 16-03-2018 07:10PM

end of the road wrote: »

the judge knows the law better then you or i . she has decided that the matter must be refered to europe for a decisian. given she has made that decisian, it's safe to say it's a perfectly legal decisian.

Or decision even.

Snickers Man · 16-03-2018 07:16PM

bear1 wrote: »

Except there is a thing called innocent until proven guilty.

And a thing called "rights". The inconvenient, and sometimes unpleasant fact about rights is that they accrue to people even if you don't like them.

Personally I think the Irish Courts are playing a blinder on this one. Democracy does NOT give you the right to be a dictator just because you've won an election. Even Mr Trump is finding that out.

And if a country elects somebody you don't like, you have to accept and respect their accession to office. What you do NOT have to accept is people abusing their power and creating a situation which falls short of basic standards of democracy and jurisprudence to which we have all agreed.

The Polish people in their infinite wisdom elect a complete dickhead: too bad. He won. Grin and bear it.

He then goes and undermines the independence of his own judiciary so that it falls below the minimum standard required for the sort of mutual recognition of judgements that are necessary for the smooth operation for the EU: well then you let him know that the smooth interaction between his country's courts are yours are no longer possible.

Even in the case of a suspected drugs dealer who may be a complete and utter scrote.

Snickers Man · 16-03-2018 07:21PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The Irish judiciary isn’t fit for purpose. It isn’t up to this judge to decide whether the judicial system of another EU country is up to standards or not. Most European countries have totally different systems.

If the EU decides that Poland isn’t compliant then it can decide the penalty.

Er, yeah. That's what the "Irish" judge has done: suspended judgement in the case until the EU court decides on her points of concern.

And of course the judicial systems of all member states are different. They are, after all, independent states. You don't believe all that Brexity bull**** about being "ruled by an unelected bunch of bureaucrats in Brussels" do you?

But there are minimum standards of compliance that must be met for interoperability. the Irish judge has questioned whether Polish courts meet that standard and has asked the EU for a ruling.

Good on her!

Dr Brown · 16-03-2018 07:33PM

The internal politics of Poland is simply none of our business.

end of the road · 16-03-2018 07:35PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

We have an extradition agreement with all EU member states. The EU commission has not expelled Poland. That agreement still stands.

Her ludicrous lone wolf decision either forces the ECJ to accept that Poland is broadly legal - which presumably will be the outcome - or expel it. We can hardly have free movement and no extradition.

Since the result of the existing investigation was merely an invocation on article 7, which isn’t an expulsion but a fine, she clearly overstepped her bounds here. Poland hasn’t been expelled. As to bypassing the Supreme Court, what’s that about? And apparently her ruling will have knock on effects across the union.

I said earlier that extradition is constitutional. I’m not sure if it is, if it was part of those agreements we codified into the constitution or not. I do know it’s legaly binding however.

the agreement will have to operate within the laws of the EU. the judge's decisian is within the rules as it allows the referring of cases to the ECJ for clarification and the judge was correct to do this.
judges make decisians that have knock-on effects across the european union from time to time, that's life and there is nothing wrong with that. it's very necessary. the judge didn't over-step the mark at all.

topper75 wrote: »

End of story?

If doing the EU's bidding involves:

saving drug dealers from punishment
belittling Polish sovereignty

then I think we can add those to the Reasons to Leave with the Brits column. Thereby the story continues.

It seems there is a new downside to membership being revealed every week nowadays. The politicians grasp towards federalism, but the people are losing patience.

sure, if you want ireland to end up back in the 1950s being the bankrupt basket case it was, then there are reasons to leave the EU along with britain. i and i suspect most people living in ireland don't want that. especially on the basis of us both following and using EU law, which is not doing the bidding of the EU.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

She clearly doesn’t know the law as she’s just asked the ECJ to decide it.

This ruling has huge consequences. As does the Supreme courts decision to refer another case to the ECJ regarding extradition to Britain. Because of Brexit.

Effectively the two highest courts in the land have unilaterally stopped extradition to two existing EU states, one of which is one of the oldest democracies in the world and the originator of our legal system.

We always knew our judiciary werent the sharpest tools in the drawer, this however takes the biscuit.

their decisians on the matter of refering extradition cases to the ECJ suggest the opposite. both fantastic decisians and will give full clarity on the matter once the ECJ give their ruling.

Mutant z · 16-03-2018 07:37PM

If we really have sovereignty as some seem to believe then why the hell can we not deport criminals from these shores.

end of the road · 16-03-2018 07:40PM

Dr Brown wrote: »

The internal politics of Poland is simply none of our business.

it is when it comes to implamenting the rule of law between us and poland.

Mutant z wrote: »

If we really have sovereignty as some seem to believe then why the hell can we not deport criminals from these shores.

we can. and we do.

Dr Brown · 16-03-2018 07:44PM

end of the road wrote: »

it is when it comes to implamenting the rule of law between us and poland.

who says there is no rule of law in poland ?

baylah17 · 16-03-2018 07:48PM

Dr Brown wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

it is when it comes to implamenting the rule of law between us and poland.

who says there is no rule of law in poland ?

Most every independent expert on the subject.
Try researching it or get a grown up to research it and explain it to you

Galwayguy35 · 16-03-2018 07:55PM

Send him back, we have enough criminals of our own without foreign ones as well.

Not our problem.

end of the road · 16-03-2018 07:59PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Send him back, we have enough criminals of our own without foreign ones as well.

Not our problem.

can't be done as he is innocent until proven guilty and won't get a fair trial. it's very much our problem.

16-03-2018 08:31PM

Dr Brown wrote: »

The internal politics of Poland is simply none of our business.

Neither, according to many, was the torture and shoot to kill policies used as part of "the internal politics of Northern Ireland" or apartheid used in South Africa as part of "the internal politics of South Africa".

And so on ad nauseam.

If the government of Poland derogates from international laws that protect the equality before the law and due process which it has formerly subscribed to, it deserves to be held to account by member states which expend considerable resources fulfilling their respective obligations to agreed international human rights.

The current government of Poland is free to leave the liberal democratic world, and we will be free to punish them for their pathetic backward populist political games.

Galwayguy35 · 16-03-2018 08:54PM

end of the road wrote: »

can't be done as he is innocent until proven guilty and won't get a fair trial. it's very much our problem.

He's a Polish citizen wanted for trafficking drugs there, in other words a total scumbag.

He's Polands problem to deal with but of course a busybody leftie judge decides he can't be sent back there.

Now what will happen is more criminals will come here because it will be seen as a safe haven where they won't be returned to their own countries to face justice.

end of the road · 16-03-2018 09:16PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

He's a Polish citizen wanted for trafficking drugs there, in other words a total scumbag.

He's Polands problem to deal with but of course a busybody leftie judge decides he can't be sent back there.

Now what will happen is more criminals will come here because it will be seen as a safe haven where they won't be returned to their own countries to face justice.

he hasn't been found guilty of anything. accusation doesn't equal guilty. poland's justice system is currently under attack so the non-lefty judge who is just enforcing the law, decided to refer the case to the ECJ for clarification.

Dr Brown · 16-03-2018 11:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Neither, according to many, was the torture and shoot to kill policies used as part of "the internal politics of Northern Ireland"

NI is part of our island Poland is not.

or apartheid used in South Africa as part of "the internal politics of South Africa".

SA is gone to sh1t since apartheid ended and now has reverse racism against the whites.

If the government of Poland derogates from international laws that protect the equality before the law and due process which it has formerly subscribed to, it deserves to be held to account by member states which expend considerable resources fulfilling their respective obligations to agreed international human rights.

If we follow your logic criminals from all over the world were there are no human rights would come to Ireland. Its complete madness.

The current government of Poland is free to leave the liberal democratic world, and we will be free to punish them for their pathetic backward populist political games.

Populism is just democracy. Are you against democracy ?

Snickers Man · 17-03-2018 07:12AM

Mutant z wrote: »

If we really have sovereignty as some seem to believe then why the hell can we not deport criminals from these shores.

We can.
After due process.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 17-03-2018 07:35AM

Have great respect for both Poland and Hungary.

Deus Veult.

Snickers Man · 19-03-2018 06:02PM

Dr Brown wrote: »

The internal politics of Poland is simply none of our business.

No-one is suggesting they are. But interactions between our courts and those of Poland most certainly are.

Dr Brown wrote: »

who says there is no rule of law in poland ?

Again, nobody is. But we are talking about the interface between our courts and those of Poland. And of course that is our business. In any transaction between two bodies, each side has an interest to some extent in the other.

topper75 · 21-03-2018 11:21AM

Deleted User wrote: »

...
The current government of Poland is free to leave the liberal democratic world, and we will be free to punish them for their pathetic backward populist political games.

A people deciding what they want in their own sovereign state is 'backwards' and 'populist'.

ha ha - you wouldn't be an EU federalist by any chance, would you?

weldoninhio · 21-03-2018 11:38AM

Lmklad wrote: »

We live in a civilised society governed by rules. The EU has set the bar on what those rules are. The Polish government has changed their legal system so that the offices of justice and prosecutions is now the same. The Supreme Court there has stated this is an attack on the Constitution, the government has just removed half the Supreme Court judges.

Our High Court has a duty uphold the rule of Irish and EU law, regardless of our personal opinions of the alleged offender, that rule of law must be followed. The Judge is perfectly correct in referring this case to Europe.

When will our High Court be ruling on the illegal collection of VRT??

weldoninhio · 21-03-2018 11:41AM

bear1 wrote: »

Again, if. He hasn't been proven guilty yet.
Why would you deport someone who, according to the law, is still innocent?

The same could be said for any criminal who makes it across the border to any other country. They're innocent until proven guilty, so how/why deport them??

Irish judge stops extradition of Polish citizen...

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